agnatheist?

Lately, I have come across a couple atheists who seem to share the belief that *something* created us, but it's not uniform or organized, it's just kinda "there".

Recently, a local paranormal investigation group (Colorado Springs Paranormal Association) has invited me to be a data analyist/investigator. A good friend of mine Paul, Co-owner of CSPA considers himself "Agnatheist". He has personally witnessed many things that cannot be explained, however remains highly sceptical. Now, I've always believed in God and always will mainly soley based on my own personal experiences with God. However, there are many who never really explored nor are interested so much in spirituality or "religion" (as most people call it, but I am not fond of the word, personally). There are those like Paul, who who have seen things, but just don't quite buy the whole God thing. This is understandable, as I would never try to push my personal beliefs on anyone else.

Another person, a co-worker of mine, but not involved in CSPA at all feels pretty much exactly the same way as Paul, except is pretty much just set on the fact that he's Atheist. I can see this becoming a trend, and it raises a few questions for me.

#1 can someone be an "atheist" by defenition but still be open to the fact that there just might be something else there?

#2 If there are any atheists reading this, I'd like to ask you, would you be at all interested in "ghost hunting"?

#3 Just how many "atheists" out here on ATS share pretty much the same stance as Paul? It could be rare thing, but I'ts a curious thing..

#4 How many people who claim to be atheists are *really* atheists? Meaning how many atheists out there actually believe in *nothing* which is the whole basis for that belief in the first place?

Just some curious thinking. It's been an interesting week and I've really been enjoying paranormal investigations! It really is like Ghost Hunters, but w/o the T.V. show.

[edit on 10-1-2010 by Wookiep]

One of the core ideas behind Atheism is that you don't believe in something that cannot be empirically proven. This doesn't mean that Atheists ignore theories, far from it. Atheism demands investigation of the unknown.

Atheists avoid holding convictions, for the most part anyway. Believing in something that is unproven is something that goes against true scepticism, and true atheism.

I am an atheist, and proud of it.

In answer to your questions -

1) I am an atheist, and am open to the unknown - not to subliminal suggestion, or the poison of religious intoxication. Exploring the unknown in a rational manner, means that avoiding the two prior subjects is important.

2) Ghost hunting is very interesting - I wouldn't do it, as I'm busy with others things. But it is a strange phenomenon (whether or not it's real requires empirical analysis) and as such deserves inspection.

3) There is no such thing as an 'Agnatheist'. You're either agnostic, or an atheist. A dictionary will clear up your confusion on this. An agnostic doesn't write off the existence of the 'divine', nor do they explicitly believe in them. An atheist explains that it is all hogwash.

4) Atheists do NOT believe in NOTHING. Atheists believe all sorts of strange things - but do not state they are real until proven so. Religious people do exactly that - state things are real before they are proven. Therein lies the poisonous and disgusting truth behind religion - it's mostly based on lies and minimal truths. You could say it's all allegorical.

WookieP - May I suggest you read the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins? His book and public musings will help you understand what 'Religion' actually is. A control mechanism, nothing more.

Good luck in your readings - you're asking questions, which I admire.

Parallex.

P.S. I'd like to add that I believe in 'ghosts'. I don't think they are spirits as such, more like projections through a 'veil'. One day, if inspected properly, they might be explainable by science. Religion will never examine them properly using science, as such, religious explanations will never hold a sensible answer.

[edit on 10-1-2010 by Parallex]

Originally posted by Wookiep

#1 can someone be an "atheist" by defenition but still be open to the fact that there just might be something else there?

Absolutely they can.
That "something else" Doesn't have to be God.... or what the Abrahamic faiths call god anyway.

There are endless possibilities as to what it may be.. and to be closed minded and only except one answer (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc) is selling yourself short IMO.

#2 If there are any atheists reading this, I'd like to ask you, would you be at all interested in "ghost hunting"?

Absolutely.
Have never witnessed what i would call a ghost but have certainly had a few freaky experiences.
And know a couple of people, and know them well, who swear blind they have seen them.. and i have no reason to doubt them


I love ALL things paranormal.

#3 Just how many "atheists" out here on ATS share pretty much the same stance as Paul? It could be rare thing, but I'ts a curious thing..

I think you'd be surprised... i think many who are "Atheists" are open to the possibility of something.... not a God as described by religion, particularly the Abrahamic faiths....but something.

Who knows... Aliens... a universal life force of some sort.

It maybe Agnatiest as you say.

#4 How many people who claim to be atheists are *really* atheists? Meaning how many atheists out there actually believe in *nothing* which is the whole basis for that belief in the first place?

Atheist doesn't mean you believe in nothing....this is what always makes me laugh.

Religious folk (not saying you are) always assume that atheists believe in nothing out of the ordinary, have no morals or feelings, can't think about anything other than science and science is our god and Atheism is really like a religion because we have faith in science....


I am an Atheist in that i don't believe in a particular Deity.... i don't believe in what most people call "God".

Doesn't mean i am closed minded.

reply to post by blupblup


BlupBlup - nice to see some unity on the atheist subject!

Fight the religious power!

Parallex.

good thread, that should help clear up a few things on atheism. I'm not going to add to the answers given as they pretty much clear it up.

Interesting discussion.
We keep trying to pigeon hole people but life is not so conveniently black and white.
I don't believe in the God of religions (though maybe 5% of me acknowledges there may be a possibility).
I'm also open to the possibility that religious teachings were initially handed down to the people in simplistic terms that a primitive being could understand.
I believe there MAY be something out there way beyond our imagining.
I don't understand why FAITH is touted as a virtue ie belief in historic tracts, or belief in something you haven't seen, smelled or touched. In fact some people go further and suggest you are condemned to hell if you don't have FAITH. Nope, will never be convinced by that one.
I don't believe in SATAN.
I don't believe in an external entity judging us when we die.
I believe that there may be a sort of karma where we judge ourselves and where hell is a place of our own making.
What does that make me? I don't know and I don't really care.
I guess we will all find out when we die. Either it will be a case of 'Ah so that's what it's all about' or we will just be oblivious anyway.


[edit on 10-1-2010 by unicorn1]

Originally posted by Parallex
One of the core ideas behind Atheism is that you don't believe in something that cannot be empirically proven. This doesn't mean that Atheists ignore theories, far from it. Atheism demands investigation of the unknown.

Atheists avoid holding convictions, for the most part anyway. Believing in something that is unproven is something that goes against true scepticism, and true atheism.

I am an atheist, and proud of it.

Unfortunately, you do not speak for all atheists. I would say most atheists that I know do not have a curious side, and are not interested in investigating the unknown which is unfortunate.

Originally posted by Parallex
In answer to your questions -

1) I am an atheist, and am open to the unknown - not to subliminal suggestion, or the poison of religious intoxication. Exploring the unknown in a rational manner, means that avoiding the two prior subjects is important.

2) Ghost hunting is very interesting - I wouldn't do it, as I'm busy with others things. But it is a strange phenomenon (whether or not it's real requires empirical analysis) and as such deserves inspection.

3) There is no such thing as an 'Agnatheist'. You're either agnostic, or an atheist. A dictionary will clear up your confusion on this. An agnostic doesn't write off the existence of the 'divine', nor do they explicitly believe in them. An atheist explains that it is all hogwash.

I think you are incorrect. One can certainly be an agnostic atheist or even an agnostic theist.
See en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Parallex
4) Atheists do NOT believe in NOTHING. Atheists believe all sorts of strange things - but do not state they are real until proven so. Religious people do exactly that - state things are real before they are proven. Therein lies the poisonous and disgusting truth behind religion - it's mostly based on lies and minimal truths. You could say it's all allegorical.

I wish you would just speak for yourself. There are plenty of atheists who state facts that are not proven. I don't know about yourself, but you can't cover up the errors of a whole segment of society like atheists in this way. (I will give you that I believe religious people are even more guilty in my eyes.)

Originally posted by Parallex
WookieP - May I suggest you read the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins? His book and public musings will help you understand what 'Religion' actually is. A control mechanism, nothing more.

If I remember correctly, Richard Dawkins' God Delusion actually changed the definition of the word "agnosticism" because he wanted the "atheism" position to be more palatable. Instead of using the real definition "a ' gnosticism - (without knowledge)" he said something about "agnosticism" being the center of a scale between atheism and theism. This couldn't be further from the truth. This is probably why you have erred in thinking one could not be an agnostic atheist.

Originally posted by Parallex
Good luck in your readings - you're asking questions, which I admire.

Parallex.

P.S. I'd like to add that I believe in 'ghosts'. I don't think they are spirits as such, more like projections through a 'veil'. One day, if inspected properly, they might be explainable by science. Religion will never examine them properly using science, as such, religious explanations will never hold a sensible answer.

[edit on 10-1-2010 by Parallex]

Originally posted by Parallex


1) I am an atheist, and am open to the unknown - not to subliminal suggestion, or the poison of religious intoxication. Exploring the unknown in a rational manner, means that avoiding the two prior subjects is important.

Then I give you props parallex! I think the "athiest" has been tainted into someone with a closed mind. At least to "believers". I agree with you about "religion" but that has also been tainted IMO

2) Ghost hunting is very interesting - I wouldn't do it, as I'm busy with others things. But it is a strange phenomenon (whether or not it's real requires empirical analysis) and as such deserves inspection.

Well *I* will admit that I didn't think an atheist would ever be interested. I know a rather kick-ass yet stubborn guy who is prolly the funniest and most likable guy (atheist) I've ever known who can do nothing but laugh and make jokes if ever my "ghost investigations" are brought up lol. Hes a really cool guy, but he just cant get why I'm into God and the "paranormal" etc.

3) There is no such thing as an 'Agnatheist'. You're either agnostic, or an atheist. A dictionary will clear up your confusion on this. An agnostic doesn't write off the existence of the 'divine', nor do they explicitly believe in them. An atheist explains that it is all hogwash.

I completly agree with this. Yet I do see a trend of some "middle ground" lately.

4) Atheists do NOT believe in NOTHING. Atheists believe all sorts of strange things - but do not state they are real until proven so. Religious people do exactly that - state things are real before they are proven. Therein lies the poisonous and disgusting truth behind religion - it's mostly based on lies and minimal truths. You could say it's all allegorical.

I suppose I should have said "don't believe in a God/s" But a God implies a creator which doesnt exsist, no organization, hence nothing? I have a hard time believing we are here, but there is no creator behind it. However, I have been tainted by the common thought that atheists believe *nothing* so thank you for clearing that up. Btw tho, I'm not exactly thrilled about "religion" either. I'd ask that you take a glance at a previous thread here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

WookieP - May I suggest you read the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins? His book and public musings will help you understand what 'Religion' actually is. A control mechanism, nothing more.

Good luck in your readings - you're asking questions, which I admire.

Parallex.

P.S. I'd like to add that I believe in 'ghosts'. I don't think they are spirits as such, more like projections through a 'veil'. One day, if inspected properly, they might be explainable by science. Religion will never examine them properly using science, as such, religious explanations will never hold a sensible answer.

No, I haven't read that, I do admit. It could add some insight. :p I've already learned from your post alone that I have some mis-conceptions about "atheists" . If I'm ever on the defensive it's purely due to the fact that don't like feeling "inferior" to another person simply because I believe in God. It makes me angry!
[edit on 10-1-2010 by Parallex]



[edit on 10-1-2010 by Wookiep]

reply to post by Wookiep


I remain surprised every day at the increasing numbers of open-minded, yet 'reason-based' people on ATS. I applaud your response.

A little 'reason' goes a long way methinks.

You sound like an honourable agnostic to me - possibly (in the current climate of ideologies) a better vantage point on many issues.

Parallex.

Originally posted by Wookiep
#1 can someone be an "atheist" by defenition but still be open to the fact that there just might be something else there?

Absolutely!

#2 If there are any atheists reading this, I'd like to ask you, would you be at all interested in "ghost hunting"?

I am and yes. I am open to the existence of "ghosts", but I remain highly skeptical, with the opinion that most of it is probably contrived or exaggerated.

#3 Just how many "atheists" out here on ATS share pretty much the same stance as Paul? It could be rare thing, but I'ts a curious thing..

I do. I consider myself a spiritual atheist, One who doesn't believe in a God, but does believe in a spiritual existence. I explored some of my spiritual beliefs in this thread: The Belief in Things Not Proven

#4 How many people who claim to be atheists are *really* atheists? Meaning how many atheists out there actually believe in *nothing* which is the whole basis for that belief in the first place?

An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a deity or God. That's all. The term atheist says nothing about other beliefs, like spirits, souls, ghosts, etc. Atheism does NOT mean a belief in nothing. It means the absence of a belief in God only. (Or the belief that there is definitely NO God - Strong Atheism). The term you're describing is a Secular Humanist or Bright:

What is a bright?

* A bright is a person who has a naturalistic worldview
* A bright's worldview is free of supernatural and mystical elements
* The ethics and actions of a bright are based on a naturalistic worldview

[edit on 10-1-2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by blupblup
Originally posted by Wookiep

Absolutely they can.
That "something else" Doesn't have to be God.... or what the Abrahamic faiths call god anyway.

There are endless possibilities as to what it may be.. and to be closed minded and only except one answer (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc) is selling yourself short IMO.

Ok- thats fair, however...you are saying there are endless possibilities right? I havent known an atheist to say that. Ok ok... so you you don't like religion that's fair. So as an atheist you are saying there may be something else? To me that makes you agnostic, but nevermind!

Absolutely.
Have never witnessed what i would call a ghost but have certainly had a few freaky experiences.
And know a couple of people, and know them well, who swear blind they have seen them.. and i have no reason to doubt them


I love ALL things paranormal.

Well KUDOS to you sir, I feel as tho I have a bad mis-perception about atheists now, I never would have thought that an Atheist would enjoy a ghost hunt.

I think you'd be surprised... i think many who are "Atheists" are open to the possibility of something.... not a God as described by religion, particularly the Abrahamic faiths....but something.

Who knows... Aliens... a universal life force of some sort.

It maybe Agnatiest as you say.

I really *am* surprized, who would have thought??? Tho it sounds like to me that you are just not open to "bible God", ah well I would take you as an agnostic.

Atheist doesn't mean you believe in nothing....this is what always makes me laugh.

Religious folk (not saying you are) always assume that atheists believe in nothing out of the ordinary, have no morals or feelings, can't think about anything other than science and science is our god and Atheism is really like a religion because we have faith in science....


I am an Atheist in that i don't believe in a particular Deity.... i don't believe in what most people call "God".

Doesn't mean i am closed minded.

Well again thanks, because I never ever thought that atheists do not believe only in "God" but anything beyond what science proves...which is what you just said therefore I am confused for sure, sir! I'm not assuming anything other than you only believe in science and thats FINE! How does that show that you believe in anything *other* than science tho? :

[edit on 10-1-2010 by Wookiep]

Originally posted by theyreadmymind

Unfortunately, you do not speak for all atheists. I would say most atheists that I know do not have a curious side, and are not interested in investigating the unknown which is unfortunate.

Your opinion, not hard fact. I made the same leap, so lets agree to disagree on that one eh?

I think you are incorrect. One can certainly be an agnostic atheist or even an agnostic theist.
See en.wikipedia.org...

For a start, Wikipedia? Honestly? The Agnostic Atheist idea is a fools errand. The two areas (Atheism & Agnosticism) are mutually exclusive. The very notion that someone who practices empiricial analysis of reality would suddenly drop these values and declare that god 'COULD' exist is silly. By making that statement, a person shifts from Atheist to an Agnostic.

I wouldn't be surprised if the terminology here was created by fundamentalist Christians (Yes, Christians, as they are the only religion vindictive enough to bother with this) to try and weaken the Atheist argument by dilution.

I wish you would just speak for yourself. There are plenty of atheists who state facts that are not proven. I don't know about yourself, but you can't cover up the errors of a whole segment of society like atheists in this way. (I will give you that I believe religious people are even more guilty in my eyes.)

Thanks for the admission. I speak for myself when I say that I 'DO' believe that the majority of atheists try and stick to the evidence. Yes, alot of them are confused, and particularly poor debaters. This is usually because they get fed up of 'fundie' Christians trying to shout them down - so they shout back incoherently.

We kind of agree on this I think. I just have a vested interested (being an atheist) in defending atheists.

If I remember correctly, Richard Dawkins' God Delusion actually changed the definition of the word "agnosticism" because he wanted the "atheism" position to be more palatable. Instead of using the real definition "a ' gnosticism - (without knowledge)" he said something about "agnosticism" being the center of a scale between atheism and theism. This couldn't be further from the truth. This is probably why you have erred in thinking one could not be an agnostic atheist.

I read this passage and thought, interesting argument, until your last sentence. Dawkins is right, Agnosticism is certainly a middle ground between theism and atheism. It doesn't bear the burden of proof like either side of the fence. I do not err when I suggest that Agnostic Atheism is a fools errand, for reasons explained previously.

I don't think Dawkins was responsible for this change, I think he merely highlighted a change in current thinking.

Good post mate! Food for thought.

Parallex.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Originally posted by Wookiep

I am and yes. I am open to the existence of "ghosts", but I remain highly skeptical, with the opinion that most of it is probably contrived or exaggerated.

nothing wrong with that!

I do. I consider myself a spiritual atheist, One who doesn't believe in a God, but does believe in a spiritual existence. I explored some of my spiritual beliefs in this thread: The Belief in Things Not Proven

I just find that confusing.. "spiritual atheist".. No worries but it just seems odd to me is all, actually thank you because I happen to believe that you are not alone, hence my thread.

An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a deity or God. That's all. The term atheist says nothing about other beliefs, like spirits, souls, ghosts, etc. Atheism does NOT mean a belief in nothing. It means the absence of a belief in God only. (Or the belief that there is definitely NO God - Strong Atheism). The term you're describing is a Secular Humanist or Bright:

What is a bright?

* A bright is a person who has a naturalistic worldview
* A bright's worldview is free of supernatural and mystical elements
* The ethics and actions of a bright are based on a naturalistic worldview

Ok- and like the others who posted before me, I appreciate the response! No seriously! I think the view of atheists have been quite mis-understood, as well as the other side. Too much arguing, not enough getting down to the bottom of things.. some "religious" people don't like you because they think you have no heart for their beliefs, and you prolly can't stand your average preacher because he's a judgemental bastard with no grasp on being anything other than a fake. It's a common dilema. Between you and I? I have nothing against atheists, I think the general understanding about them as I have learned tonight have just been skewed. It is NO-ONES place to judge anybody, that is my view.






[edit on 10-1-2010 by Wookiep]

Originally posted by Wookiep

Well again thanks, because I never ever thought that atheists do not believe only in "God" but anything beyond what science proves...which is what you just said therefore I am confused for sure, sir! I'm not assuming anything other than you only believe in science and thats FINE!

How does that show that you believe in anything *other* than science tho?

:

Ahhh now here's the crux of the argument about the boundaries of Atheism and Agnosticism.

I will stick my head out here and say that I think many people who declare themselves Atheists do so in error. When they are actually Agnostic. An Atheist does not believe in empirically challenged subjects. In clearer language, they do not accept something as proven or 'real', when it has not been proven, or accepted by science as 'real'.

An Agnostic, does NOT propound that something unproven is NOT real. Nor do they suggest that it is - they simply don't know, or as in more cases, they don't care.

Simply put, it is the burden of proof that decides whether or not you're an atheist or an agnostic. Do you want proof before you accept something as real? If so, you're an atheist. If you don't, but you remain sceptical, then you're an agnostic.

Complicated this stuff is.

Parallex.

Originally posted by Wookiep


Ok- thats fair, however...you are saying there are endless possibilities right? I havent known an atheist to say that. Ok ok... so you you don't like religion that's fair. So as an atheist you are saying there may be something else? To me that makes you agnostic, but nevermind!

Noun 1. atheist - someone who denies the existence of god


I don't believe in God... i don't even slightly believe in God.
Therefore technically, I am an Atheist.

I don't like organised religion and i don't believe in some Omniscient, Omnipotent being who watches and judges us.
I don't even leave a little room for maybe, i really just do not believe it.

So In my mind, I am an Atheist.

And this is where, as Parallex said, The line between Atheism and Agnosticism seems to get blurred.

An Agnostic is someone who doesn't know either way, they don't subscribe to either Atheism or Religion.

So in my mind, I am not Agnostic.

Well KUDOS to you sir, I feel as tho I have a bad mis-perception about atheists now, I never would have thought that an Atheist would enjoy a ghost hunt.

And this is the problem with Misconceptions and Presupposition.
Everyone, irrespective of their religion, or lack of, is an individual and as such has many interests in many areas and across many subjects.

There are scientific Priests and there are Ghost hunting Athesists.

The world, including everyone in it, is a richly diverse and surprising place.

We should never just assume that because people like to label everyone and everything...that everyone under these labels is the same... or all believe the same or all think the same.

I really *am* surprized, who would have thought??? Tho it sounds like to me that you are just not open to "bible God", ah well I would take you as an agnostic.

As i stated above, i don't believe in any deity whatsoever.
I don't subscribe to Theism, any definition of Theism.


the·ism (thzm)
n.
Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.


So again, in my mind... i am not agnostic... i am an Atheist.

I'm not offended and I'm not saying I'm not Agnostic because it offends me to be labelled as such, it's just that people muddle the terms up and many seem to think that they are interchangeable.... i personally don't think they are.

Well again thanks, because I never ever thought that atheists do not believe only in "God" but anything beyond what science proves...which is what you just said therefore I am confused for sure, sir! I'm not assuming anything other than you only believe in science and thats FINE!

How does that show that you believe in anything *other* than science tho?

:

For me... Atheism is literally just a choice of religion.
It goes no further and includes nothing to do with empirical evidence or science or whatever.
Those things, for me, have to do more with Skepticism.

Nobody and i literally mean Nobody on the planet knows whether there is a god or not... or what happens when we die.
I just personally choose not to believe in a deity... of any description.


Maybe Aliens had something to do with it?

Maybe it all happened by chance?

Maybe our Universe is only one in an endless ocean of a Multiverse.

Maybe all of this is someone's dream and when they awake we will vanish?

Nobody knows.




[edit on 10/1/10 by blupblup]

a·the·ism (ā'thē-ĭz'əm)
n.
Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.

The doctrine that there is no God or gods.


[French athéisme, from athée, atheist, from Greek atheos, godless : a-, without; see a-1 + theos, god; see dhēs- in Indo-European roots.]

I don't believe that there is a God.

I want to find out if something made us and what it is or are.

I kinda believe that there are ghosts (I am angry at the "ghost hunters" for not asking important questions) , I would go on a "ghost hunt" if I had the chance. I believe but I am not 100% sure because I don't have any proof of the ones that I have seen and it could be my mind playing tricks on me.

I am "spiritual" and believe that we have a soul that can either merge with the other souls or stay here on earth and be a ghost but I am not 100% sure about it. I meditate and ask for guidance and protection but I don't know to whom or what am I asking this to. For all I know I am asking myself but I still do it because it works for me and I feel better when I do it.

I believe that there is more that we can do with our minds because I have experienced it and have "received" information of things that I didn't know before and in other languages. I have received information about people and groups that I have never met before with names and all and I have contacted them and they exist and are involved in what the "message" is all about. Every now and then I doubt the "message" but it alway has to do with the person or groups and it is not something trivial or every day stuff either.

I don't know what people call people like me regarding religion or non-religion.

reply to post by Wookiep


People can be whatever they want to be, but I can tell you--based upon God's word in the Bible, my ultimate authority--that being an agnostic/atheist/combo will NOT get you into Heaven.

Don't look at the church on your street corner or the Jerry Falwell's as your perception of true Christianity.

All you need to be a true Christian is a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ as your savior (w/ a King James bible in hand). You could be in a cave in Borneo and be a true Christian.

You do not need one of these false, so-called physical churches. Rick Warren and all these other false teachers are leading you straight into a one-world-religion (hint: you WILL worship at their religion or you will not live....atheists/agnostics will not be allowed) and straight to eternal damnation.

Repentance and Jesus Christ are the only way (this coming from a former sinner's sinner).

I have been in to the ghost hunting scene for many years, even accumulating many or the required tools and instrumentation for measuring such paranormal events. However i have yet to see a ghost, I have been in the situation where others are seeing things which i dont see, and i put that down to their mind playing tricks on them, either that or the ghosts simply dont want me to see them. I have not been ghost hunting fro a few years due to my disability and not being able to get to some of the places where the events are taking place, but i still follow it where ever i can.

I am also a non believer in "God", having said that i do believe in what some call a prime creator, now if that is god, or an all powerful conciousness i dont know, I have looked for the truth and never found it in any religious readings or teachings, I dont believe a word the bible says. So for that reason i cant be a Christian, I have looked deeply in to many religions and have the same opinion about all of them.

As far as i am aware there are not teachings in what i believe, that don't dictate what i should and shouldn't do, or try to get a part of my income to be part of their group. which i disagree with. If i believe in something the same as another person, i don't believe they have the right to charge me for my belief just because they believe they hold the monopoly on the idea. that to me is fraud and just wrong, but a lot of alternative religious beliefs do just that.

When i do die, i believe i will return to the conciousness, and join it to become one with it, maybe there will be a choice for me to do something else in the universe, maybe coming back as a plant or an insect, i dont know. If i am completely wrong and god is real, and i have to confront him when i die, my only defence will be that i spent my life in pursuit of the truth, but found nothing that convinced me of his existence. If that means there is a hell, and i have to go their, so be it, maybe there should be more in the way of evidence to convince those of us who don't believe.
Just my bit on it, thanks for the interesting thread S&F for this one, Neo

Originally posted by DissentFromDayOne

People can be whatever they want to be, but I can tell you--based upon God's word in the Bible, my ultimate authority--that being an agnostic/atheist/combo will NOT get you into Heaven.

Good good, I don't want to get into YOUR Gods' heaven. It sounds like a horrible place full of judgemental gits with a narrow view of the world. I say anyone that wants to be in that heaven - good luck to you, 'godspeed', I don't want to hear more about it thank you very much.

Don't look at the church on your street corner or the Jerry Falwell's as your perception of true Christianity.

As usual with you fundie's, its YOUR **special** religion isn't? Only for the chosen few, the ones people like YOU pick. Nice - very democratic.

All you need to be a true Christian is a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ as your savior (w/ a King James bible in hand). You could be in a cave in Borneo and be a true Christian.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! As an atheist, I take it upon myself to learn about religions, and their methods, and most importantly, their histories. One thing I've learnt, is that the King James Bible, is one of the most bastardised books in all of history. So if you ACTUALLY think that the word of YOUR **special** god resides in there... you're even more deluded than I thought.

You do not need one of these false, so-called physical churches. Rick Warren and all these other false teachers are leading you straight into a one-world-religion (hint: you WILL worship at their religion or you will not live....atheists/agnostics will not be allowed) and straight to eternal damnation.

Fan of the Dead-Sea Scrolls are we? I don't even know who Rick Warren is, nor do I care. Interesting one-world religion theory - care to elaborate? Or will you foist more pointless scripture on us?

If we end up with a one world government, and they give us a NO-RELIGION world, I'm happy with that. Sounds like a wondrously enlightened and open-minded place. I wonder if they will let us eat babies in this damnation that awaits us? Or maybe feed Christian fundamentalists to lions?

Repentance and Jesus Christ are the only way (this coming from a former sinner's sinner).

You poor chap, I genuinely pity you so much. What do we have to repent for my good preacher? What (in your holy, holy view) are we evil SINNERS doing that offends you?

Parallex

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reply to post by neo5842


Hey Neo.

By the sounds of it, you fall into the classic Agnostic group. You're not sure either way, and you're happy with that. I think your pursuit of truth is an admirable direction.

Parallex.

Thanks for the replies and so far, I'm pretty impressed with the responses as I have been quite informed. I think it's safe to say that not all athiests think alike.

I apologize if this sounds redundant but it needs to be made clear that the common perception of an athiest is:

They do not believe in God or the afterlife or anything spiritual. Science and science alone is the key to understanding our universe.

The common perception of an agnostic is this:

They believe in "something" just not too sure what. Not prone to "religion" or any organized form of spirituality completely and are not quite certain but are open to search for new answers.

However, after reading some of the replies here, it's not for me or anyone else to place someone in a box. I do find it curious why the misperception of athiests is so geared toward having a closed mind. I must admit, most of the ones I have met in life seem pretty closed-minded and I don't know why.

The question now is there a real big difference between an athiest and an agnostic? So far, I'm not seeing huge differences, in fact before I created this thread I would have thought most the athiests that have posted here sound like agnostics. I'm very surprised that my view has been challenged.