I think I Am A New Aged Racist

reply to post by Occy Anonymous


You're entirely missing the point!!!! Ok, apply that to how the people who are already citizens here. It takes time,money, et cetera to learn the language of immigrants coming into this nation as well. You think that comes easy?

So, it's ok that we have to spend money and time to conform to the ways of people coming to our country, but it's unfair to expect the immigrants to do that? That is essentially what you are saying!!

Originally posted by Occy Anonymous
Thats okay mate. Personally I hate white people.

As for you hating immigrants, you seem to forget learning English takes time and money, many of the immigrants coming to you're country are far too poor to afford either and you'll find it's mainly the wealthy ones who do speak English. It's not their fault they can't speak English, they moved to escape poverty and other atrocities with little or no funds to their names.

It's not so easy for them to take 30 hours out of their week to enroll in English classes, when they have to work 60 hours a week on sub-standard pay.

Also, the world belongs to no one. Your country is not YOUR country. It is all one world and it has no owner, people and governments claiming land for their own are sadly delusional.

I have First-Hand Experience .. and i can tell you that Most Immigrants try their best to learn English .. but like you said .. it is hard when you are poor as hell and have no time ..

I am kind of a Global Georgist .. so i do also agree with you that Land Belongs to no one ..

reply to post by Polynomial C


Thanks for clarifying your point. 'Preciate it. I guess I reacted defensively to your post because it seemed a trifle....judgemental.

Anyway, glad you helped clear that up. Hope I didn't come across as attacking you, btw...

.

reply to post by Polynomial C


They way I read the OP and what I know of 10th Power personally is that he is not speaking of the 'poor and huddled masses yearning to breathe free.' He's talking about those you read in the news who do things like migrate then burn the host country's flag, sue because they couldn't read a caution sign in English and ended up being injured, appeal to their new government's for their own set of laws to be applicable only to them (and maybe even changes to make the laws applicable for all in extreme cases), etc.

I don't mind immigration and believe a mix of cultures can be a beautiful thing. I also strongly believe in aiding refugees. But when they're disruptive about it and when the natural born citizens are made to feel guilty or have their own systems run over, then I understand the frustration.

That's not racism. It's common sense for others to be willing to assimilate at least somewhat when they made the choice to move. You don't have to assimilate into the Borg but you also don't have to come and pee on the carpet.

In other words, getting irritated by rude, discourteous guests is a perfectly reasonable reaction.

As an American I have not hit the threshold which might make me feel I am being invaded, etc... The language thing does not bother me, neither does the food or the culture for the most part.

On the other hand, I think if I were a Brit I would be in OP's shoes...

As it is I do not think the two countries face the same problems

Originally posted by Janky Red
neither does the food or the culture for the most part.

Honestly, I don't mind the food or even the culture thing either. Given that America doesn't really have a culture of its own to speak of anyway, but I do take issue with the whole language thing.

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth


Who cares .. how does it affect you ??

Originally posted by Polynomial C
You are Ignorant .. and here is why ..

NOT ALL IMMIGRANTS ARE THE SAME !!! ..

Most Immigrates DO adapt to the culture .. DO learn the language ..

The Problem is .. Bigots like you want to pick on the "Bad Apples" , and then judge a whole group of people ..

People like you is the reason so many people HATE Immigrants and judge them without even know their story ..

I am sure you are not a Racist and do not judge color .. but you need to learn that you cannot LABEL a whole group of people because of a few "bad apples"

P.s - You may not be racist .. but you are a little xenophobic ..

[edit on 6-1-2010 by Polynomial C]

Well attacking me certainly was not the best way to make your point, but ok I guess.

I certainly understand where you are coming from, perhaps I do come accross as a bigot, however, as AshleyD said, I am NOT speaking of those who come here escaping war and poverty. I am speaking of those who come here and burn our flag because they don't like that it's not like their country.

I apologize if I come off as a Bigot to your senses, nothing much I can do about that. Then again this thread does show I am trying to change this line of thought.

Thanks for your comments.

~Keeper

reply to post by Polynomial C


What? If you don't understand, then I'm not even wasting my time trying to explain it. It's really obvious.

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth


But the thing is, YOU can afford the time and money needed, they can not. You think your government spending a billion dollars to better suit the immigrants is a big deal, but to the immigrants a hundred dollars is just as big a deal. You can't use the same scale to compare immigrants and governments in terms of finances. Now I understand it is annoying sometimes, but without immigrants not being able to assimilate our countries would be generic and boring. No Chinatowns, no little Italy's just a plateau of ignorance.

I'm not saying you should kiss ass to every immigrant you meet, but you gotta know these people do not have the same luxuries as you or I even if they live in the same country, they majority do wanna be westernized, speak English, go to a baseball match with their kids, BUT THEY CAN'T. learning English is not as easy as simply hearing and speaking, and yes if we go other countries we learn the basics to get by, but that's coz we can, we can afford a Chinese-English dictionary and to study it between lunch breaks and at home. But the immigrants who do not speak English generally have the worst and hardest jobs and cannot take time off to learn English, or even afford a luxury like a phrasebook.

Immigrants do not come to other countries so they can have a better life, they come so their children can. They do it all to send their children to a western school and give them a western education even if their children do not want it and end up in race gangs (which is a whole other topic) They group up in particular suburbs not out of spite for the west but out of fear and necessity, and yes surrounded by people of their origins decreases their chances of learning the language but without it survival is much harder.

I am aware that some immigrants do come only to take advantage of welfare and whatnot, but that's such a small minority it'd be like saying all white people are members of the Ku Klux Klan.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


First, thanks Tenthpower, for having the sand to say it plain and clear as you've done. Yes, within context of some points-of-view, you are a neo-racist. So am I.

[insert wavy lines here] 30-some-odd years ago, I globehopped. Wherever I settled down for a spell, I learned the language as well as I could. I was poor in funds and rich in spirit. The wonderful people of Italy stand out in my mind -- in general they were very warm, helpful, and kind toward someone making an effort, no matter how I butchered the language.

There was another European country that was -- again in general -- the polar opposite of that. If I didn't pronounce words with the exact naunce, some folks would be very derisive and dismissive.

I feel as you do about one's native country, although I recognize that most of us tend toward looking at large numbers and patterns within various demographics of people. I'd bet that most of us on a one-to-one basis with any immigrant or work permit holder (local venacular) tend toward doing our best to communicate, to understand, even to help.

It's where we start looking at large numbers of people that I start to get tweaked off. I remember when I lived in San Francisco....... it irritated me that driving tests were given in several languages. I still have a problem with this, however far behind me it is. In Chinatown, street signs are in both English and Chinese (and it sounds off to me to say Chinese, as I don't recall the exact dialect that was predominant). Chinatown was (is?) as old as the City itself, and in many ways the people that lived and worked and bled and died there significantly contributed to the building and growth of that fine city.

I've become concerned with emmigrant enclaves (wrong word, but I'm having a CRS night) that are ruled by Sharia Law. I've tried to understand this process, and really .... for me, have done a great deal of research. It's shocking to me that an established country and law of same would even conSIDer bending to another law system, to even contemplate deferring to it. I don't understand why people would even want that for themselves.

When we moved here to the Cayman Islands, we put away our American icons. I'll always love the United States, and I miss some things about her -- things I knew I'd have to give up. Choices, right? I don't fly an American flag here. Americans are not frowned upon here, but this is a British Dependency Territory, and to be a part of a community, one has to embrace the culture, the idioms, the lilting melodic phrases, and yet retain your own individuality. I spent months pouring over law books..... just to know. I can't claim ignorance of a law if I run into trouble, only bad choices.

Smylee girl really tapped into it, didn't she? I really like a person who can teach and learn at the same time and do it with kindness.

Sorry sorta for the novella. That's not going to get better with age, I don't expect.

Short answer: Nothing wrong with you TenthPower. You have uncomfortable questions, nothing more. Keep on a-seeking, and thanks for the brainfood.

i think the complexity of the problem would do well to be underestimated.
but i do agree with you completely. whats more worrying than that for me is the changing nature of the british population as a whole. i dont want to sound as if im anti muslim or anything here but the statistics are muslims produce at least double the children a caucasion white family with no religeon produces. now its not hard to do the maths that in 100 or so years the muslim population with be a representative population of the UK.

is it too much to ask that we live in a diversified and integrated system where the original ansestors of the area can remain so without drastically adjusting their way of life.

By no means do feel uneased by a muslim or asian aspect of our society. i dont even care if they live by their own laws. Its when their laws affect our lives it seems rather unfair. does this mean we have to learn sharia law incase we somhow offend them? we cant live by two law systems its not possible because breaking a law for one system may be obiding one in another. I for one do feel at ease living in a half british and half sharia religeous law.

a further flip side of the coin is that if i were to move to IRAN or such islamic country and start making 6 babies and demand british laws i think wed likly have our heads cut off for blastfamy.

my primary concern is the british government, is it so incompitent to realise that having a very large and growing muslim segment with the smell of a western vs eastern war on the horrizon a bad idea. furthermore when the situation of population ratios actually reach a very observable level i can see political action taking place such as that in the film children of men where imigrants and such are rounded up and exported or worse.

this is the least ethical opption avalible and i would hate for this to be the case, would it not be far more sufficient to employ a policy such as the china one child policy for the UK to retain both our population make up and stop escalating unemployment and homelessness? its jst plain logic if you ask me

I was an immigrant once, a long time ago when I was around 7yo. My parents and I didn't know the language and we wound up in the backwoods of the country... nothing but small mixed farms and everybody knew everybody else. In other words, we stuck out like giraffes in Ireland.

The first thing that we noticed was that the folk around us went out of their way to make us feel like they wanted us around. In fact, it seemed they needed us, because they'd be constantly asking us, me included, to help with all the farmwork. Their women would cook great meals for my dad and me at noon and we got along just fine, even without knowing the language.

It wasn't long before I went to school that first fall and that's when the trouble started. You see, those farm kids were hateful little brats and, just because I was an immigrant kid, they'd decided, as a group, to start picking on me. It was hellish and the fights were pretty regular, mostly because I wouldn't put up with it. Believe it or not, that BS went on for ALL of my school years, right through highschool. All those experiences didn't go well for anyone taking me on though. Practice, after all, makes perfect, and it wasn't long before I stopped losing ANY fights.

I guess the moral of the story is that the problems that come with emigrating come from both sides... immature citizens and guys like me that won't put up with any crap. Like everything else in life, it's a 'two-way' street. Maybe grown-up people are immature these days but I doubt it. If memory serves, the Irish weren't welcomed that much in North America after the potato famine either. I can think of a few other examples too.

My parents had no problem. They learned the language from my schooling and, in turn, once they got enough in their heads, they never spoke the mother tongue again unless it was with relatives visiting from the 'Old Country. They fit into the community almost immediately simply because they were immersed in it. I think that's key... getting immersed.

That brings me to my second point. I can't figure out why immigrants seem to want to stay in one little corner of a city surrounded by a population of their own nationality. Why don't they want to move around and see the whole country? I mean, once they're citizens and they get the vote, it IS their country too.

Can't figure it, but, in some ways, it's nice too. I love going into those areas and eating in their restaurants, shopping in their stores and really getting the flavour of a faraway land.

Anyways, that's my feelings on it, even if it doesn't seem all that coherent.

reply to post by Occy Anonymous


I really liked your entire post.

This stands out as a real urban truth:

Immigrants do not come to other countries so they can have a better life, they come so their children can.

I knew as soon as I read your phrasing that it IS a truth.

well said, thank you.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by Janky Red
neither does the food or the culture for the most part.

Honestly, I don't mind the food or even the culture thing either. Given that America doesn't really have a culture of its own to speak of anyway, but I do take issue with the whole language thing.

I can see why you do

I think it is valid - I guess I am lucky to be wired the way I am.

Great OP

reply to post by tothetenthpower


I totaly understand you! I myself know how it feels to live in others countries and i allways adapted to them. I really dont understand why i should stay in a country i dont adapt to, but i also know of some countries that are very hard to adapt to becouse they just wont acept others, we must be more tolerant, liberal, broad minded

reply to post by masqua


A person's gender really doesn't matter to me within context of relating to others here at ATS. Somewhere along the line, I got the mistaken impression that you are a woman. My apologies, Masqua. If you could've heard me four minutes ago...........

Okay. I think you really take us to that inner family level, and I appreciate it. I don't think any of us believe that people immigrate with an agenda of local domination, however it's really good of you to share some of your experiences.

You and your family did assimilate, even against the whims of those who chose to judge you based upon where they wanted to cubbyhole you, and dang you if you didn't break out of that mold and screw everything up for them.

Thanks for so wisely and kindly shaping this thread. I really like the way it is flowing, and the easy exchange of ideas.

reply to post by Janky Red


If that was some kind of an "insult," I just hope you know that you're talking to someone who has a degree in journalism. Uh, yeah, don't you feel smart?

[edit on 6-1-2010 by SpeakerofTruth]

i totally agree with the bad apple assesment, i mean if all islamic people were terrorist do you not think thered be alot more troulble than there is in the uk. ITV news isnt going to report the everyday life of muslim people anymore than it would the lives of typical caucasion british people, airliner crashes make the headlines because they are a rare occurance, and the same goes for terrorists.

i bet if you chucked aload of the most benevolent muslisms and christians into a room theyve have alot to discuss rather than fight about, it does sadden me that some state of equality has not been reached despite the progress weve made as a race. i mean we can go to the moon but we think of people differently for what they believe.

social exclution is the problem the more you isolate groups of people the more the gap grows. if white children bully black ones, they will in turn resent and hate the white ones. i think we need some fantastic intergration idea that would actually apeal to people rather than the motivation of obligation

reply to post by Janky Red


Yikes, that was really bad grammar... YUCK!!!! Maybe you have a valid point.