Boy killed by bullet 'fired three miles away'

reply to post by Pr0t0


A moment of prayer for protoplasmictraveler.
and his children.
And if it was his bullet.

[edit on 4-1-2010 by Donny 4 million]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Originally posted by Donny 4 million

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
What a tragedy, only the good die young though.

Proof positive religion will not save you! Did the gun kill the boy or his parents dragging a three year old to church?

Cause and effect.

I hope you are on Holiday and some sad sack stole your passwords.
I know you are a Brady buncher but the attack on the church
and the folks in it is TOTALLY un-American. A tragedy in itself.

Actually truth be known I suspect the OP who is from England not the U.S. and favors English Gun Control Laws will be wanting to turn this into a forum for the evils of gun ownership here in America.

I am shall we say, purposefully exploring alternative theories to this tragedy!

I feel terrible for the boy's parents.

It's a real tragedy, sadly some people on ATS have a way of exploiting tragedies to peddle agendas for America and a lot of them don't even live in America.

Go figure.

The Bradey Bunch? More like the Adams family!

I think some truly amazing things have happened on this thread.

The tragic death of a child has become far less important than a perceived attack on religion.

The tragic death of a child has become far less important than a perceived attack on a church.

The tragic death of a child has become less important than seizing an opportunity by mostly non-U.S. Citizens to push and advocate for gun control in the U.S.

The tragic death of a child has become less important than seizing on those things and me as a lightning rod for those issues.

Some how though everyone would prefer I be ashamed, that I put none of those things above the tragic death of a child, and a parent’s regrettable decision and a fool's pitiful actions.

Some of you would happily be manipulated by your emotions, some of you would happily use others emotions to manipulate.

Who amongst you really grieves for this boy?

Who amongst you really doesn’t have an agenda more important to you than this boy?

Who amongst you even knows this boys name?

As Mr. Spock would say...fascinating.




[edit on 4/1/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Have you been at the leftover New Year's booze or something?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

But the boys home wasn't hit by a bullet, his parent's church was.

That's a fact. Not a hypothetical.

You were the one who asked earlier in the thread for someone to explain how the boy could have been hit had his parents kept him at home! So I did. The point is that it could still have happened so you were wrong to blame his parents and religion.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

The reailty is that some people want to exploit this issue for a gun control issue, while pretending that others should be ashamed.

I can't speak for others here, but I certainly was not trying to turn it into a "gun control issue". I merely said my view was that the easy availability of guns to irresponsible people was more to blame than the parents or their religion.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

What exactly do U.K. gun related deaths versus U.S. Gun related Deaths have to do with the incident?

Again, I only made that point came up because you made comments alluding to the UK being unsafe because we do not all have guns with which to protect ourselves.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Absolutely not a thing expect for SHAMELESS people looking to EXPLOIT this tragedy for their OWN FOREIGN AGENDA.

This just takes the biscuit!

You were the one who started exploiting this tragedy with your ridiculous comments blaming the boy's parents and religion.
You tried to gain anti-religious capital by doing so.
Every comment I have made has been to refute the nonsense you have spouted on this thread.

You are the one with the agenda.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler


This mourning for the poor child touches me so!

The boy's death was indeed a tragedy, and my heart goes out to his parents. They must be devastated.

That is pretty much the only thing I would have posted in this thread if not for your ridiculous, unsympathetic and frankly offensive comments.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

I can't tell you how shameful I consider this to be.

I can't tell you how pathetic I consider this to be.

My exact feelings about your postings on this thread.

[edit on 4/1/10 by sotp]

Anyway you look at it it says something. Gun control, god laying a smite down or the bullet repelled by the 2012 magnetosphere. My thoughts go out to the family. What a tragic story.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

People from a nation who are now defenseless in the face of their Totaltarian Government.

A U.K. Government that bashed and assaulted and killed innocent and peaceful protestors at the G-20 there.

It's very transparent, it's why the Original Post got posted in the first place.

To push gun control.

Yet more nonsense. It's seldom (if ever) that you see a post from a UK member worried that the British government is going to herd the population into camps. Those come from American members, as do most of the swine flu/population reduction conspiracy posts. We might not trust our government 100% but we're not paranoid.
As for the G20 protests, can you honestly say that nothing similar has ever happened in the US?

And where in the OP does it mention gun control? Nowhere.



[edit on 4/1/10 by sotp]

reply to post by sotp


Interestingly enough those perceptions aren’t my reality. You perceived me to be anti-religious, and to have an anti-religious agenda, based on some interpretation of my comments regarding the culpability of the church and the failure of G-d to intercede and save the boy.

That’s not anti-religion.

The parents, the church, and the gunman all play a part. All three had to come together in one point in time and space for the event to transpire as it did. All three are negligent to varying degrees.

What I did was ask a lot of questions, and look at a lot of different angles.

Could the occult have been involved, could there have been some deficient workmanship in constructing the church, could there have been some circumspect thinking on behalf of the parents, etc., etc. ?

Everything else that developed was simply the responses I politely gave to a number of people who were more or less questioning me for questioning and TELLING me not to question, for various reasons of their own, and their own agendas that had nothing to do with the child or the tragedy.

Amazingly person after person on the thread seems to think that they only said what they said because I somehow caused them to say those things that exposed their primary agendas and concerns.

I at least take ownership and responsibility for what I say, and say it for a reason that I am quick to honestly admit.

Talking about odds, what are the odds a poster who’s account hasn’t been active in 90 days, and has hardly made 20 posts in 2 years, signed on to ATS tonight and went straight to this thread to bash my participation and support others?

Almost as astronomical as being hit by a bullet in church!

People with hidden agendas of course suspect everyone else of having one too.

I had a hidden agenda too, to expose everyone else’s.

I think it’s really pathetic how people would exploit these tragedies and as I said, obviously just about everyone posting has an agenda and is pushing one other than the boy.

I have no doubt as people read through the thread that the more intelligent ones will see it. A number of them have already.

reply to post by sotp

Yet more nonsense. It's seldom (if ever) that you see a post from a UK member worried that the British government is going to herd the population into camps. Those come from American members, as do most of the swine flu/population reduction conspiracy posts. We might not trust our government 100% but we're not paranoid.


And where in the OP does it mention gun control? Nowhere.

Saying it's nonsense doesn't make it nonsense friend.

The U.K. is one vast camp already, it's an Island, you are stuck on it with no means in which to defend your selves.

The OP has been absent from the thread since posting, he's been busy foisting a reenactment video of an Iranian prison as breaking political news and avoiding this thread like the plague.

Sadly the latest G-20 in Pittsburgh was a travesty against the American people and an absolutely shameless display of government excess and violence against the people.

It is especially why Americans would not be well served giving up their weapons.

Someone is going to have to save you guys eventually...news flash it's always us.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Your first post in this thread was:

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

What a tragedy, only the good die young though.

Proof positive religion will not save you! Did the gun kill the boy or his parents dragging a three year old to church?

Cause and effect.

(emphasis added by me, obviously)

Given what you said there it's kind of hard to take it as anything but anti-religious. Am I the only one who thinks so? Clearly not.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Interestingly enough those perceptions aren’t my reality. You perceived me to be anti-religious, and to have an anti-religious agenda, based on some interpretation of my comments regarding the culpability of the church and the failure of G-d to intercede and save the boy.

Nowhere in your first post (the one where I deduced an anti-religious agenda) did you mention the culpability of the church.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

What I did was ask a lot of questions, and look at a lot of different angles.

Could the occult have been involved, could there have been some deficient workmanship in constructing the church, could there have been some circumspect thinking on behalf of the parents, etc., etc. ?

No, what you did was engage in ludicrous speculation based on absolutely no evidence. Where in the OP or linked article does it mention assassins, Rothschilds or the occult? Nowhere! That was all dreamed up by you.
Deficient workmanship? While they may not have made the best choice of building materials it's ridiculous to suggest that the church is culpable just because they didn't build the thing as a box of three feet thick concrete.
Circumspect thinking by the parents? If you think taking a child to a church is irresponsible parenting then you cannot say for a moment you don't have a problem with religion. I'm an athiest but I would never suggest for a moment that someone taking their son to church is endangering the child's life.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

I think it’s really pathetic how people would exploit these tragedies and as I said, obviously just about everyone posting has an agenda and is pushing one other than the boy.

Well it seems like that's exactly what you have been doing since page one. If you had no agenda then you could have just posted a comment stating your sadness at the boy's death. There was no need for the unfounded conspiracy tales you then proceeded to subject us to and we wouldn't be having this lengthy and unnecessary debate.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Talking about odds, what are the odds a poster who’s account hasn’t been active in 90 days, and has hardly made 20 posts in 2 years, signed on to ATS tonight and went straight to this thread to bash my participation and support others?

Doesn't that tell you something?

Lots of people 'lurk' around forums, there's nothing wrong with that. Perhaps they would've commented but another member has already made the point they were going to so they don't see any reason to join in. It sometimes takes something pretty despicable to make lurkers enter the fray and your first post came off as being pretty despicable. Well it did to me at least.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Someone is going to have to save you guys eventually...news flash it's always us.

Actually if it wasn't for our government doing America's bidding all the time then we probably wouldn't have much of a problem with the protests. Saving us? No, you're ruining us.

But again this is all irrelevant. The thread is about the boy dying, not your blinkered patriotism.

reply to post by sotp

Lots of people 'lurk' around forums, there's nothing wrong with that. Perhaps they would've commented but another member has already made the point they were going to so they don't see any reason to join in. It sometimes takes something pretty despicable to make lurkers enter the fray and your first post came off as being pretty despicable. Well it did to me at least.

Well to 21 different people who starred the post I don't think they felt that way, though maybe there are some people out there who award stars for being despicable!

It's all based on your interpretation and perception.

Your first comment was that you are an Athiest, yet are some how quick to defend any thing that can be percieved as an attack on religion.

Alrighty then!

Then the sequay into gun control and figures from outside sources to back up your contentions.

Alrighty then!

There are some who believe the only stupid question is the one some one fails to ask.

For all you know this was part of an occult ritual and a Rothschild was responsible! Crazier things have happened on this earth friend.

Like a lot of breaking news on ATS that is hopped on before all the investigations are complete and all the facts are known by people looking to push agendas it will be a while before all the facts are known in this one too.

But if pushing an agenda is that important to you to disparage others personally in that endeavor I understand!

I guess its easier than accepting the reality of it took the church, the boy's parents and the gunman all being in a precise point in time and space for the tragedy to occur and that each were involved in a fateful choice that cost a young boy his life.

Since there is no way to overcome that, I guess that just leaves trying to overcome me!

Good luck there friend.

Mods, can you please do something? This thread is so completely off topic and has been since page one.

So I myself can remain on topic, Have you ever noticed how people who are taught to respect firearms from an early age are less likely to do something so careless.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Well to 21 different people who starred the post I don't think they felt that way, though maybe there are some people out there who award stars for being despicable!

I am shocked yet somehow not surprised that your comment received so many stars. There are many 'Dawkinite' atheists on ATS who will star and flag anything that attacks religion. Maybe that's not the case here, I honestly don't know.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Your first comment was that you are an Athiest, yet are some how quick to defend any thing that can be percieved as an attack on religion.

Whoa there horsie! I was not defending an attack on religion, I was criticising your decision to make such an attack in a thread about a young boy dying. Any link to religion is tenuous at best yet you seemed to just jump right in there anyway!

FYI I've criticised religion on ATS more than a few times myself! I just understand the meaning of the word "tact".

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Then the sequay into gun control and figures from outside sources to back up your contentions.

Outside sources? Of course! Where are the gun/death statistics on ATS?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

For all you know this was part of an occult ritual and a Rothschild was responsible! Crazier things have happened on this earth friend.

I'm not saying they haven't, but in a country where so many carry guns is it not reasonable to believe that it was just an accident caused by some careless reveller firing a bullet into the air? If the first thing that springs to mind is "occult-Rothschild-assassin" then I think you have a problem.
Then again, maybe you are right, and in the course of the investigation some weird conspiracy will come to light.

However I highly doubt it.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

I guess its easier than accepting the reality of it took the church, the boy's parents and the gunman all being in a precise point in time and space for the tragedy to occur and that each were involved in a fateful choice that cost a young boy his life.

Have you never heard of the word "coincidence"? Look it up if you haven't. Then you might learn that not everything is a conspiracy.
There's no blame here, other than for the person who pulled the trigger and even then I'm sure that they will not be aware of the tragedy that has come as a result of their carelessness.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

I guess that just leaves trying to overcome me!

I'm not trying to overcome you, just trying to make you understand that there is a time and a place for frivolous speculation and that this was not such a time. Respect for the dead and the grieving was all that was necessary here, and that was really my point all along.

Anyway, if you haven't understood that by now then there's not much more I can say. Enjoy your tactless ignorance, I'm off to my bed.

Goodnight.

Originally posted by calstorm
Mods, can you please do something? This thread is so completely off topic and has been since page one.

So I myself can remain on topic, Have you ever noticed how people who are taught to respect firearms from an early age are less likely to do something so careless.

Honestly it seems that the incidents of firearm abuse like these are higher in urban areas where people have never used a firearm for hunting or grew up around guns but bought them for self defense.

I live in Miami which is 47 percent latino 30 percent black and 23 percent white. Immigrants are likely more prone to discharge weapons in this manner than people born here in the United States.

In some Latin and Middle Eastern Cultures its a standard way of celebration.

Some people might think that's racist but it's not. For instance many Latin nations don't have ambulance service and here in Miami ambulances often have a hard time getting traffic to yield to them because so many of the motorists aren't really familiar with the concept. In most Latin nations if you are hurt even seriously you call a cab.

I grew up in rural Pennsylvania in a community full of hunters, they would never just shoot a gun straight up in the air at nothing even out in the middle of the woods.

You are very correct about the educational aspects of gun safety making a big difference.

reply to post by sotp

Back at it I see...

reply to post by sotp

Given what you said there it's kind of hard to take it as anything but anti-religious. Am I the only one who thinks so? Clearly not.

Some might say the same in regards to this comment.

A very good explanation which makes a lot of sense, but I have to ask why no-one ever thought to fix that during the many, many, many, many translations of the story over the years? I suppose the church thought it might have helped sell the idea if it was more fanciful...actually that might explain a lot of the stuff in the bible

Postbysotp06242009

Some might say this is anti-religious too!

The scientific community has always been willing to admit (though sometimes reluctantly) when it has been off the mark. When new evidence emerges theories are reformed as necessary. Can't say the same about the bible, which is treated as the word of God and thus infallible. Even when it's shown to be clearly wrong (and it is on quite a few things let's be honest) those who believe it's the word of God will not accept hard evidence to the contrary...

Postbysotp06242009

Of course I am sure it's only anti-religious if you say it is!

Want to talk about your anti-gun agenda some more?

It's prety simple my friend and this is not going to change as far as I am concerned.

The man who fired the gun is partially responsible.

The Church holding the service in a substandard dwelling is partially responsible.

The parents who dragged a three year old out of the house on one of the riskiest nights of the year to be out of the house are partially responsible.

I absolutely believe all three of those things based on the personal code I live my life by 24/7/365

There is nothing in the world that is going to make me feel differently.

That's just the way that it is.

Thanks.

reply to post by sotp

Have you never heard of the word "coincidence"? Look it up if you haven't. Then you might learn that not everything is a conspiracy.

There is no such thing as coincidence, everything happens for a very precise reason.

Many people might not be aware of it at the time that it happens, for years to come or ever at all, but it is all absolutely interelated and inter-connected.

Personally I don't care if someone wants to say this is G-d's will.

I don't care if they want to blame it all on the fool who shot the gun.

People are entitled to have opinions.

I care that some people would exploit this tragedy for an ulterior agenda.

We can play lets try to be critical of Protoplasmic Traveler till the cows come home, still won't change the outcome of what happened, and it still won't make the people and entities culpable in the tragedy any less culpable.

That's just the way it is friend.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I believe racism and culturalism often get confused. I could care lees about the color of someones skin, I am as pale as one gets so the way I see it is everyone has darker skin than me, just in may different shades. There are however some cultures that do things I just can't stand. Unfortunately those culture are associated with certain skin colors.
In america it seems as though we have two different gun cultures. It also explains why people in urban areas are more apt to be anti 2nd amendment, because all they are exposed to is the more careless gun culture. I can say with 80% certainty, Leaving that 20% open of course for cases of extreme stupidity know mater how well you are raised, had the shooter been raised as I was, this tragedy would have never happened,

reply to post by calstorm

I absolutely agree with you friend. I taught my wife to shoot out in the Angeles National Forest outside of Los Angeles. They had a public shooting range there in a certain part of the park. It was absolutely outrageous some of the weapons people would take out there and how they would use them.

Guys who have never owned a gun before starting out with an AR-15 converted to full auto, simply because they have the money and connections to own one.

Very little respect for the weapon, very little congnizance of just what they have in their hands.

You could go down the line and tell who the serious and responsible shooters and outdoorsmen were and who the yuppies and gangbangers were in the blink of an eye.

Sadly that was about the only place you could go to shoot rifles. I would take her to the indoor pistol ranges to teach her how to use those.

I haven't owned a gun in years but I actually believe every American should be taught how to respect them and safely use them and store them.

We teach kids how to drive safely, and to respect the power of a motor vehicle.

We should teach them how to shoot safely and how to respect the power of a firearm too.

If anything needs legislated its education.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Just as well I chose to finish reading another thread a didn't go to bed yet!

I fail to see what your point is. I was not criticising you for having an anti-religious viewpoint, just for choosing to voice it in this thread as I felt that was insensitive.

Did you miss the part of my post where I said:

Originally posted by sotp

FYI I've criticised religion on ATS more than a few times myself! I just understand the meaning of the word "tact".

So posting those comments of mine from previous threads was pointless.

Let me spell it out for you once more...

I AM AN ANTI-RELIGIOUS ATHEIST

but unlike some people here

I AM NOT A TACTLESS MORON

Got that? I hope so because I'm sick of repeating myself.

But I will, one final time.

No matter how many times you say it, the church is not responsible.

Let's say the child was struck by the bullet whilst riding in a taxi. Is the cabbie responsible because his cab wasn't bulletproof? No.

Let's say the child was struck by the bullet whilst playing at the park with other children. Are the owners of the park responsible because they didn't surround the park with bulletproof shielding? No.

Is every area of your house bulletproof?

No matter how many times you say it was a risky night the parents are not responsible. The same thing could've happened at any time in a country with so many guns going around. Should they have kept the child in a bulletproof room for the rest of his life?

Of course not.

No, the person that is truly responsible is whoever pulled the trigger, and I'm sure they never meant for this to happen.

Your 'trinity of blame' is nothing more than a tragic coincidence. Can't you even entertain such a notion? Perhaps if you pulled you head out of the clouds and stopped dreaming up ridiculous fantasies you would.

Anyway, that is all. ZZZ awaits. Goodnight.

reply to post by sotp


My friend your version of tact leaves a lot to be desired from where I sit.

The world according to you is all fine and dandy for you.

I have been through your threads. you like to dictate to people based on your own perspective.

A lot of people do.

I march to the beat of my own drum, I am in fact a drummer.

Now if you have something to add to the thread that's on topic on not just your personal dislike of me, feel free to, otherwise, I think you ought to just accept that your arguments have not persuaded me.

I believe in cause and affect.

Coincidentally the little pig who built his house out of straw did not think he was responsible for the big bad wolf blowing it down and neither did the little pig who built his out of sticks, this did not stop them from fleeing to safety at the little pig's house who built his out of bricks.

I believe that the church, the boys parents, and the shooter are all partially responsible.

You will simply have to learn to live with that I fear.

Though suicide is always an option for some!

You have a great night now!



[edit on 5/1/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Jeez... it's like watching you talk to robots. Some here really need to tune up on their ability to 'read between the lines' and actually take notice of the intent behind the words being written.

Not only would they learn a thing or two, but they might even have a laugh -- I know I did!

Thanks ProtoplasmicTraveler... I for one appreciate your outstanding contribution to this thread and ATS in general.

[edit on 5/1/10 by Navieko]