Masons don't believe Jesus was Son of God.

reply to post by kingswillquiver


Freemasonry is NOT Christian. This is fact. Its Deistic in nature, where everyone worships (in private) their own God.

Why does that bother you?

It doesn't mean its members are not by the majority, Christian. It only means one specific religion is not used to oppress other members beliefs.

What's wrong with that?

Imo, you are an anti-christ

Originally posted by lucentenigma
So?

I don't believe that Jesus was the son of god either, does that make me the anti-christ?

Probably not the anti-christ but a heathen who should be burned up in a fiery grave right?

Like cuhail said masons believe in a higher power, a grand designer or architect.

It could be Jesus, Jesus' dad, Allah, Buddha, doesn't matter.

[edit on 27-9-2009 by lucentenigma]

Quoted because this is pretty much how I think about this issue as well. I'm further removed than the Masons however, because I don't subscribe to a higher power/architect/grand designer either.

This doesn't make me a bad person does it?

Originally posted by jokei
I'm an Atheist here and I'm not a mason, but the original post I find be an ill-informed troll.

Now you may question what I'm doing even posting in this thread? I'm finding it really tiresome seeing this amount of junk on ATS.

I've read up on Free masonry and regardless of the "Belief in a supreme being" it seems you can still be a christian/buddhist/whatever... now that sounds like a fairly tolerant organisation, so the OP doesn't ring true. Also, so what if some people deny jesus was the son of god? It's their belief, not yours and to post reactionary (troll) threads doesn't seem at all tolerant or compassionate, more like a cheap attempt to garner S&Fs and hammer home an ill-thought out argument... these tend to be the worst sort of threads on here, usually constituting of a knee-jerk, single-paragraphed rant - you can then compare that to other threads where people have obviously researched and put thought into constructing their arguments, these seem to run for at least a few paragraphs and have links to references, as opposed to anecdotal "he said/she said" quotes...

As for the title of this post, it just begs the question "So what?" and also gives the thread a somewhat sensationalist/tabloid bent. As for the "Gang-posting" statement, that really is a weak and flawed argument, that seems to have been invited by the headline - what do you expect when ATS is known to have Masonic members???

AND!!! I restate it here I am not a Mason, but it seems from posts I've read, that they're able to make coherent arguments and back them up with decent research, yet using the bible as evidence is a little shaky considering the contention about who wrote it, when and the various interpretations of it over the numerous years.

Of course your not a mason. Atheist are not allowed in Masonry. You already don't believe in God, so they don't need you.

Originally posted by aorAki


This doesn't make me a bad person does it?

It certainly does not. I actually think it makes you a better person since you are not willing to be shamed into hiding your view from fear of persecution by people of a fundementalist bent.



[edit on 27-9-2009 by AugustusMasonicus]

Ex-33 degree Mason Jim Shaw says; "The Blue Lodge Mason is taught that the "G" in the basic Masonic symbol represents God. Later on, he is told that it represents "deity". Later still, he is told that it represents "geometry". In reality, this letter represents the "generative principle," the Sun-god and, thus, the worshipped phallus, the male "generative principle..." In its position (along with the square and compass) on the east wall over the chair (throne) of the Worshipful Master, it is the representation of the Sun, thus of the Sun-god, Osiris. Its earthly meaning, then, is of the sacred phallus; its cosmic meaning is of the Sun, worshipped since antiquity by pagans while facing the East. Reference, book: The Deadly Deception", page 144

ehh, was'nt Osirus the god of the underworld and dead? I thought Ra was the sun god.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by kingswillquiver

 

Freemasonry is NOT Christian. This is fact. Its Deistic in nature, where everyone worships (in private) their own God.

Why does that bother you?

If your believe in God, you believe in the 10 Commandments, specifically
#3

3 Do not have any other gods before me.

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

One cannot believe in the Commandments of God and belong to Freemasonry.

Originally posted by kingswillquiver
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

 

When you made your oath, did you kiss the bible?

New members are allowed to bring any book of their choosing.. like a torrah or whatever. I had considered another book myself, but opted for the Bible I was given, understanding its the allegorical stories that honestly even as a nonchristian still hold true to me. Its actually kissing the specific 3 excerts from the Bible, not the Bible its self. Basically sealing your commitment to their teachings, not their origins.

reply to post by Centurionx


Basically, yes.
en.wikipedia.org...

I've met a great number of Masons since I started ATS.
I've met some who are Wiccans, some who Jewish, some who are Christian, some who are Muslim, and so on.

Most were good folks, quiet a few were very knowledgeable about their religion, and I found it a joy to discuss it with them, as they didn't fly into a rage about it.

So, picking the words of one Mason, (even if it is Augustus) and using them to color your paintbrush is a bit foolish.

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Originally posted by kingswillquiver
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

 

When you made your oath, did you kiss the bible?

New members are allowed to bring any book of their choosing.. like a torrah or whatever. I had considered another book myself, but opted for the Bible I was given, understanding its the allegorical stories that honestly even as a nonchristian still hold true to me.

Ahh, betrayed with a kiss.

reply to post by kingswillquiver


Wait what? I don't see my God and your God as being the same thing, obviously.. the 10 commandments are no different than hamurabi's Code (bad spelling lol). Or any other nations moral foundation, or basic principles held by the vast majority of religions...

I can believe in God, albeit, not your idea of it, and believe in the basic nature of the commandments, even if I don't believe in the actual christian/judo mythology behind its story.

Originally posted by kingswillquiver

One cannot believe in the Commandments of God and belong to Freemasonry.

Really? Guess what? I call God....God. Does not seem to be a conflict there unless of course I run into someone who thinks that I should believe exactly what they feel I should believe.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by kingswillquiver

 

Wait what? I don't see my God and your God as being the same thing, obviously.. the 10 commandments are no different than hamurabi's Code (bad spelling lol). Or any other nations moral foundation, or basic principles held by the vast majority of religions...

I can believe in God, albeit, not your idea of it, and believe in the basic nature of the commandments, even if I don't believe in the actual christian/judo mythology behind its story.

Then why is there a need for a holy book in your rituals?

The IDEA of God is based on that Holy Book, is it not?

Originally posted by kingswillquiver

The IDEA of God is based on that Holy Book, is it not?

The idea of God is older then any book. Indeed, the idea of God is arguably the oldest idea in the universe.

reply to post by kingswillquiver


Well look at it this way mate, since your put hardly any effort in your replies I'll leave it at this:

Freemasonry is not for everyone. For good reasons.. some refuse to accept tollerance, ie, enlightenment.. some people prefer to value their own ideas above all others. An enlightened man sees the world and all her religions as the uniting quest of mankind searching for an answer...

Freemasonry, for some, it is this journy of internal questing for light, for truth, happiness, enlightenment... one is not truly spiritually complete until he can be comfortable with his own perception, and accept it as perception, that not all see through his eyes.

Masonry is not for you, you lack our most basic requirement of tollerance. Masonry is not anyone religion, as dogma prohibits the search for individual answers, it is a philosophy to live by and better yourself by. You being unable to accept such philosophy only means perhaps your answer is out their, but through a different medium than Masonry.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by kingswillquiver

The IDEA of God is based on that Holy Book, is it not?

The idea of God is older then any book. Indeed, the idea of God is arguably the oldest idea in the universe.

Then why do you use a Holy Book?

reply to post by kingswillquiver


Yes, that is "an answer" - I don' think I'd want to join anyway, but why bother with such a curt, off the cuff response when there was so much I stated to challenge you with that seemingly you are ignoring or unable to answer?

I like ATS but lately am getting tired and bored of some of the levels of threads being posted, I've addressed ways in which you might have made your argument stronger and challenged some points as well, you choosing not to respond is really neither here nor there, it seems there's a consensus in responses to you, so if you don't respond - I don't really care, I'd just ask that when you make another thread you think a little harder before doing it, about the content, it's source material and your arguments. I'm sure you have valid things to day, you just don't seem to express them very well here.

If you do respond, I would be more than glad to have a calm, rational, adult debate with you.

Edit: Typos, it's late here

[edit on 27/9/0909 by jokei]

Originally posted by kingswillquiver
Then why do you use a Holy Book?

For the moral and spiritual lessons that it may teach to the willing recipient.

Particularly tolerence of others.

It should be noted that trinitarianism is not fully recognized by all forms of Christianity.

en.wikipedia.org...

Jesus also is mentioned in other regions.

He's a prophet in Islam, and a incarnation of God in Hindu. Buddhists hold that he is a Bodhisattva.


So... I would take it then that all of these are Anti-Christs, from your presentation.

Originally posted by kingswillquiver


If your believe in God, you believe in the 10 Commandments, specifically
#3

3 Do not have any other gods before me.

Which 'god'?
You're being a bit presumptious that the christain (typo deliberate!) god is the be-all and end-all when all you have to go by are the deluded writings of seeming schizophrenics (given the confusion that is evident in the bible) and are disregarding the fact that millions and millions of people have gods that aren't the christian god and get by very well without the jealous, angry, retributive power freak!

Edit for formatting. :/

[edit on 27-9-2009 by aorAki]

Originally posted by jokei
reply to post by kingswillquiver

 

Yes, that is "an answer" - I don' think I'd want to join anyway, but why bother with such a curt, off the cuff response when there was so much I stated to challenge you with that seemingly you are ignoring or unable to answer?

I like ATS but lately am getting tired and bored of some of the levels of threads being posted, I've addressed ways in which you might have made your argument stronger and challenged some points as well, you choosing not to respond is really neither here nor there, it seems there's a consensus in responses to you so if you don't respond - I don't really care, I'd just ask that when you make another thread you think a little harder before doing it, about the content, it's source material and your arguments. I'm sure you have valid things to day, you just don't seem to express them very well here.

If you do respond, I would be more than glad to have a calm, rational, adult debate with you.

You have a god. His name is Cthulhu.
www.cthulhu.org...

Please, stop with the heretics.