Evidence in Scripture disproving god once and for all

Originally posted by nj2day


Don't feel left out quite yet mormons, jewish, muslim and hindus.... I hope to have enough time to take an objective look at your dogma and religious texts as well!

You don't need to, all religion is the same.
While I am glad this is posted (although i would rather it be less hostile)

This line of thinking is not unique, every atheist worth his or her salt has thought this way and has drawn their conclusion based on this.
You also do not need scripture to prove it wrong, just logic.

Eliminate the scripture and you can still "prove" God doesnt exists in much the same way and with the same questions/points.

Not a s/f but still a good one.

changed my mind after reading more of your responses ..., it IS a star and flag

[edit on 28-11-2008 by gormly]

reply to post by clcreek


i think what should be said about this ...works do matter in your life, leading others to Christ, but as a means of attaining heaven, works are not the answer. Your belief in Christ is what takes you to heaven, not the good things you do. the good things you do, gets you rewards in heaven(wich I dont fully understand) and helps other to see the way to heaven. or see the blessing you recieve, by doing good, wich leads them to Christ.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Seriously, I don't want to get heavily involved in this. Let's focus on the logic of the question 'can God create a rock so big He cannot lift it,' since that seems to be everyone's main interest at the moment.

What that question essentially just asked is can an omnipotent being fail? If it can do all things, then it would also be able to commit failure, which would certainly not be omnipotence. That makes no sense and yes it is, as you say, a paradox. Although not all paradoxes are logical fallacies, this one can be as well as appears to be. Failure cannot be part of omnipotence by the very definition but the question posed required an omnipotent being to fail. The question itself is not logically sound.

Also, there are some things the Bible mentions God cannot do: Lie, sin, tempt. Etc.

Just one way to look at it.

*Go go gadget Lurker mode*
nice post asleyD exactly what i was trying to say, but im not nearly as aticulate. thank you for that!
[edit on 11/27/2008 by AshleyD]

Concerning the 11 dimensions - yes, I hid behind that rock too when I was a Christian.
But, the thing is, we were either created or we evolved to use logic. Making a blind assumption about God is no different then me saying that the flying spaghetti monster also lives in 11 dimensions (for all you nay sayers). Now is that really using that nogin that God (supposedly) gave you?
Instead, ask why, to the best of HUMAN logic.
If the Bible is true, consider these facts:
1) God created us in his image
2) God created us with limited understanding
3) God gave us a description of his 'Godliness' in human terms through the Bible.

So what should an all knowing God expect us to do? Take our limited understanding and piece it together with the information of himself that he DID give us.
And what happens when we do this?
It contradicts itself. It makes no sense to human logic, which was his whole intention with the Bible, right?
So either God failed with us, failed with the Bible, or wanted it to be so for his entertainment.
Either way, the probability of God's existence is extremely low.

Many of you seem to be saying that there is room for God to exist in our universe. Since we don't have the knowledge to determine that, I'll say you're correct. But just because I have a garage does not mean a hobo is living in it. Should we also toss Apollo, Zeus, and the flying spaghetti monster in these 11 dimensions? Was it not a 4-dimensional mind that came up with the archaic view of the universe which needs a god? Think about it.

reply to post by nj2day


I appreciate your response. We differ of course on the definition of religion and beliefs, but that is expected (Webster's is limited). I call myself a spiritual scientist for a reason. It is essential to believe in science and to realize its importance. Where we differ of course (you and many scientists are not in agreement on the whole God thing) is in the reality of a higher power.

I won't defend or explain because he doesn't need it, nor am I codependent and feel that I have to. The world of scientists is also changing in their belief about a God. I could also send you information on this growing trend.

The problem with being too far left or far right (in talking about existence of God) is that it doesn't leave much room for correction.

There are inventors of thought and mechanics who have high abstract reasoning who discover without contempt prior to investigation, that there may be a world that lies in-between both extremes. It is this world that I find fascinating and beyond the realm that fits into ones comfort zone. Nor do I find it fully accepted (certainly not easily understood) in either world. Einstein was a good example of one who definitely believed in God - just not the religious one. He's my guy!

The irony: I have had the privilege to meet many of the top scientists in the world and those with the highest abstract reasoning were amazingly; believers in a higher power, or Intelligent Designer! Those who I found with less mental gray cells were always the atheists. I am not saying that there are not brilliant atheists but the irony was not missed. It is just their possibility of understanding higher abstract thoughts diminished as soon as they apply limitations to the process.

There is a very direct connection between the science fields and what you would like to call the supernatural world (I don't use that phrase). The higher one climbs scientifically in possibilities - the more abstract the outcome can be, but one cannot place limitations as that could block knowledge or insight. Many of the greatest scientific minds don't do this, and many were former atheists!

When the science field declares something as fact (with limited certainty) there has to be one there who challenges the thinking. This person with higher abstract reasoning always questions! Facts are only facts until proven otherwise, but there are individuals who are ahead of the scientific masses in their perceptions and reasoning's. Remember, both groups contain the masses! Not the insignificant number who don't belong to either group.

This is where the filters come in that I was speaking of earlier. If one doesn't have any, then the options are limitless. There is no ceiling. If you proclaim; "no God" or your God is the dysfunctional one of the Bible, then, you are limiting yourself, and placing conditions on reality. There are 3 realities:

There is your reality.
There is your neighbors.
And then there is the real thing!

Thank you for letting me ramble. I enjoyed your thread and your take.

"Great minds think about ideas.
Average minds think about things.
Simple minds think about people.
Great minds think on the whole realm of things or truth.
Others focus on one or two little details." - Unknown

Originally posted by nj2day
You're beginning to redefine omniscience already...

No, my friend, it is YOU who redefine the term by limitting the knowledge knowable to God to what will be. God knows all that CAN possibly be. You have a defective definition of Omniscience.

Ok, he might, but whats the point... if he knows all, then he is wasting his time on following the the path the decisions I didn't make would take me... but he can have at it I guess..

Not if His purpose is to guide you in the direction you should take?

I begin to see the problem you have. You're locked into that defective definition for some reason. Probably because that is how omniscience has been classically presented in this argument. Think of it in terms of Anselem's arguement for God's existance and you may see the logic. What is better than knowing one outcome? Knowing EVERY outcome.

Erm, look up Omniscience again up top... You're the one claiming he is not Omniscient. Following your response you state he doesn't know everything, and try to use that as proof that he knows everything... wow...

Try taking a class in metaphysics. This is not hard, really. Try reading www.christian-thinktank.com... for a good primer. Your definition of omniscience is limitting in the extreme, and ends up as a straw man.

How can you claim that the god/rock question is invalid?...

Because its a childish question. It violates the law of noncontradiction for starters - can you have a square that has no corners? Such an object cannot even in theory exist. The rock is in that same catagory - by definition it cannot logically exist. The rock is algebraically a member of two such sets the intersection of which is an empty set:

Mathematically speaking, the rock belongs to the set "all bodies", and every element in that set can be lifted by an all-powerful being. Conversely, the rock belongs to the set "bodies that an all-powerful being cannot lift" (a set that is also self-contradictory). The intersection of these two sets is empty, for there is no body that simultaneously can and cannot be lifted. Because the intersection is empty, the rock cannot exist even in theory.

Elementary logic.

Its called philosophy. That question is one that is designed to make one think...

I know, I have a degree in it (check the signature, bottom sentence). You should try taking some classes in it sometime.









[edit on 28-11-2008 by nj2day]

[edit on 28-11-2008 by papabryant]

[edit on 28-11-2008 by papabryant]

reply to post by Good Wolf


Denominations are different ways to worship the same God, the Trinity. It is religions outside this Trinity belief that are considered non-Christian; e.g., Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses.

Mormons believe God was once a man, and is now an exalted man.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus was not God, and that the God before Jesus was a different God than Jesus, and different than the resurrected Jesus.

In the Christian churches, the slogan goes something like "In essentials, unity...in non-essentials, liberty...in all things, charity." So, they all stick to the same basics. The reason there are different denominations is to appeal to the different peoples of the world. For example, some whites may not feel comfortable in an all-black church. Or some folks like traditional and quiet worship, while others like noisy worship.

See what I mean? It is a good thing, and it brings more to Christ, which is the ultimate goal, right?

Happy Thanksgiving and Happy Holidays.

Originally posted by AshleyD

Originally posted by Good Wolf
AshleyD would have been all over this thread if she were here rather than boycotting it.

Just tired. Promise. I already u2u'd the OP with some brief answers on a couple of the questions when I first saw the thread. I don't want to get sucked into another Christian answers thread. They never end and are exhausting and each answer brings on five more. Below the radar and away from the public eye with a one-on-one conversation is much more pleasurable. Good discussion without ego interference.

speak of the devil.

Ahem. Angel. *points to avatar*

[edit on 11/27/2008 by AshleyD]

as this may be true, some of us would like to see a great answer, to help us understand better i tried to answer, but as I stated before, I am not nearly as articulate or educated in theses things. wich isnt to say im not a good christian, just cant put my thought, and feelings into words. I also didnt want to sound mad at the OP because they are good questions for the most part, however the motive may not be.

Originally posted by AKARonco
i think what should be said about this ...works do matter in your life, leading others to Christ, but as a means of attaining heaven, works are not the answer. Your belief in Christ is what takes you to heaven, not the good things you do. the good things you do, gets you rewards in heaven(wich I dont fully understand) and helps other to see the way to heaven. or see the blessing you recieve, by doing good, wich leads them to Christ.

no nothing you do helps

1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ

your predestinied to go to heaven or hell nothing you do on earth will change it god says and god doesnt lie ....apparently

loving god made people for the sole purpose to punish them ....thanks god

so no doing works wont do anything so please stop the door knocking

and remeber

6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

dont do good deeds in public its bad m'kay and no good deeds in church either or your a hypocrite

Originally posted by nj2day
reply to post by iismtivu

 

So is the story about the prophet sending the bears to maul the children...
II Kings Chapter 2.

there's many more similar stories too

nj2day i dont see anything about bears here? did you misquote?
2 Kings 2
2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
2:2 And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Bethel. And Elisha said unto him, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel.
2:3 And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.

One day I pass away.

One day all of you will pass away.

'His' words will never pass away.

No matter how much a person can try and dismiss the bible. It will still be around when we are all gone from this earth. I think that is very funny.

Two things:

Those you are directing this thread to will tell you that the King James version is the only one they will accept.

As the Bible is open to interpretation, they will say you are simply interpreting the sections you say prove your argument incorrectly.

Case closed.

reply to post by Jim Scott


Denominations will never help Christ as long as they continually contrast and conflict with one another, and that is all that is happening. Groups splinter because of the subjectivity of the Bible and all the different ways it can be interpreted, that says a lot. Pursuing a truth in the Bible is a wild goose chase.

reply to post by AKARonco


Keep reading...

II Kings 2:23-24

"There came forth little children and mocked him, and said unto him Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."

Gotta read the whole story man, not just the first few verses...


[edit on 28-11-2008 by nj2day]

Originally posted by speaker
Two things:

Those you are directing this thread to will tell you that the King James version is the only one they will accept.

As the Bible is open to interpretation, they will say you are simply interpreting the sections you say prove your argument incorrectly.

Case closed.

I gave my reasons for using the NIV earlier... according to a quick search, it is the most universally accepted version.

I did check other versions too, and none of them changed the meaning behind the verses I chose to use... Some verses were tossed out because of variance between the different version.

Those I picked were checked in multiple versions.

That is also why I picked verses that weren't open to much interperitation.
statements like "For nothing is impossible with God" and "His understanding is infinite" doesn't leave much wiggle room.

Originally posted by irishjon1973
No matter how much a person can try and dismiss the bible. It will still be around when we are all gone from this earth. I think that is very funny.

Indeed, as will the

The Analects
Bhagavad Gita
Five Classics
al-Qur'an
Talmud
Tao-te-ching
Upanishads
Edit to add: Book of Mormon

and the Veda.

All of these books will be around long after we are all dust, does that mean anything? Yes, that they are just books.





[edit on 28/11/2008 by Good Wolf]

reply to post by papabryant


Dun go away papabryant... I have to get my kiddos ready for bed, do the standard reading and such...

I'll get to your answer in a bit

reply to post by nj2day


Two entities? Your understanding of the word is flawed.
When Jesus Christ came and died for the sins of mankind-
EVERYTHING changed............
the expectations placed upon mankind-
mankinds relationship with God-
our ability to be close to God-

You must read the Bible with this in mind.
God didn't sacrifice his son for nothing......

Read with an open mind....

Originally posted by irishjon1973
One day I pass away.

One day all of you will pass away.

'His' words will never pass away.

No matter how much a person can try and dismiss the bible. It will still be around when we are all gone from this earth. I think that is very funny.

No matter how much a person tries to dismiss Hilter's words, they will be here just as long. But concerning dictaters, Hitler is no rival with this God.
Hitler burned those who opposed him in concentration camps.
God burns those who oppose him for all eternity.
Wow.
No crime fits that punishment, and it doesn't take a genius to see that.

Hile God...
Have fun with that.

reply to post by Jim Scott


Actually, there are many denominations because no two churches can agree on everything concerning the Bible- or so it seems. Even Christians in the same church have slightly different views about what certain scriptures mean.