Evidence in Scripture disproving god once and for all

I'm surprised at how many are talking about these 11 dimensions as if they are the hangout of the big bearded man in the sky. These are not alternate or supernatural dimensions. Four of them are hight, width, length and time, those are the dimensions we are talking about here, not other realities.

Originally posted by badmedia
Sounds like a 1 world religion, not a world where everyone has a personal relationship with god. With your pope - who claims to be christ on earth as the ruler of all.

A one world religion was what Christ desired or else He would not have prayed that we would all be one. Every catholic does have a personal relationship with God, brought to its most sublime level by that communion with Christ in the Eucharist. What Catholics do is submit the insights of their own reflections to the approval or correction of the universal Church. So, if I read a piece of Scripture and decide it’s ok for me to deny that Christ was truly God and truly man I can refer this to the inerrant interpretation of the Church as guided and directed by the Spirit.
The Pope does not claim to be Christ on Earth. If you wish to discuss the papacy another thread would perhaps be more appropriate.

Your church is divided and has been by it's own hypocrisy where the truth shined in on the people and exposed it. The only time the catholic church has ever had the majority of membership is when it killed, tortured and forced the people into it.

The Catholic Curch is not divided, it persists as One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. People have wandered away from it but it persists as it has for the last 2,000 years. I don’t take any satisfaction playing the numbers game but Catholicism has one billion plus adherents, the next largest Christian denomination is the “Eastern Orthodox” with less than one quarter of that number.

Given the history of the catholic church, even as fresh in history as WW2. Knowing that a good tree will only bring forward good fruit, then how can such a corrupted fruit come from a good tree in Jesus?

WWII? Is this the Pius XII slander appearing? I thought you wished to deny ignorance. Again, perhaps another thread would be more fitting for such a discussion.

And here is where you try to pass off what may have been inspired by the holy spirit as the holy spirit.

No this is where I affirm that what has been revealed to us by the Holy Spirit in Scripture manifests the work of that Spirit in the Church.

Surely you realize I mean God came in the form of Jesus to be the example.

I can’t realize much that you say, remember your faith system is based on your own private revelation and knowledge? …

I have no insights. I have knowledge and understanding that was given to me directly. Jesus(God) says he will appear to people in a vision or a dream. That is what I experienced.

Now, there is a difference in people coming together to share and talk, and when they happens Jesus will be amongst them. But the church established a hierarchy where man puts himself above other men, and that is what Jesus told them specifically not to do. He said do not make yourself rabbi's or leaders. And while you can use semantics and say - oh we have a different name for it, those names did not exist at the time of Jesus, and they are the same function.

He also said not to be called “teacher” either, should you protest outside schools? You fail entirely to appreciate the nature of the Church’s hierarchical structure, all members of the Church from the pope down are subject to Christ and to the Holy Spirit and what that Spirit manifests to us through Scripture, Tradition and the Magesterium of the Church. The Pope cannot declare anything novel or change any of the dogma of the Church to suit his own ends. He cannot redefine the nature of Christ, it is the Gnostics who presume that authority themselves. You proclaim your knowledge of Jesus through this personal revelation you often refer to. You proclaim that your knowledge is superior to my faith (and the faith of 2,000 years of the Church’s teaching in the Spirit) and you wish to criticise others for presuming an authority which belongs to Christ alone? The laughable thing about all the anti-Catholic attacks on the hierarchy of the Church is that they are based on precisely that which they pretend to criticise – it’s based on their own authority whether as individuals or loose collectives of the disgruntled.

Originally posted by mortalengine
You do realise that this "church" is a church of living stones right ? - it's not a building - thats why Jesus was the stone that the builders rejected.

Yes. I think reading all I have said here about the sensus fidelium, the semper, ubique et ab ominbus and other things would have made that perfectly clear. Indeed I don;t think I have mentioned bricks and mortar once.

Instead of stupid little buildings where people "worship" God, they should be worshipping God by loving their fellow man, brotherhood of man united under one God, living and loving. People only go to church because they feel guilty, they only feel guilty because the church told them they were born into sin, it's circular.

Personally I try my best to love my fellow man and belong to that "brotherhood of man" (not excluding my sisters in Christ) who comprise the Church. A particularly beautiful way to do this is to gather together in praise and thanksgiving of God in church where we can rejoice in the bond of our communion. I don't go to Church because I feel guilty, I go to praise God and experience His love for me in the forgiveness of my sins, the sharing of His word and communion with Him in the Eucharist.

Didn't Jesus say he came to set the prisoners free ? .... I wonder who those prisoners were... hmmm... gotta rack my brains here.... could it be the people that were getting absolutely screwed over every day of their lives by religion ? ... They were slaves to the priests who were making a killing out of the sheep of the day, why else did they crucify Jesus - he was aboslutely wrecking their business and they felt it in their pockets.

They were wealthy enough to pay thirty pieces of silver for His betrayal. The prisoners were those trapped in sin and the isolation of selfishness. Celebration of the faith in a church, as part of the Church, is really quite a wonderful way to be freed from the isolation of these tawdry lives which the world inflicts upon us.

I´d like to add a few things.

Firstly there is no hell, anyone who has researched the bible from the original text knows this.

The point of god being able to make something so heavy he can´t lift himself is just silly. We live in a 3 dimensional world, I would imagine GOD is above all dimensions & matter and seeing he created them he probably resides somewhere where these things have no influence. In a quantum mechanical sense he could create an object so heavy he cannot lift, or could lift at the same time. The same way Electrons can exist everywhere at the same time and no where. In fact the very statement is illogical in itself, the fact that for God nothing is impossible he would have no need to attempt to create such an object.

As for other contrary biblical statements, the bible has been re written so often to fit certain peoples opinions and power needs it probably makes no sense any more. Which brings into question whether it is actually influenced by god if it is imperfect.

Interesting how gleeful some people are to think they may unravel any hope that mankind has, and how I'm sure secretly they question themselves and Pray (to themselves of course) that they are right and none of their actions are called to judgement and to dust they return. How easy life can be for a person who beleives there is no consquences for the things they do, no authority to submit to and we are all doomed hopeless people just waiting for our turn to die.



None of the verses that the original poster gave contradict each other, and some of the examples are differences between Old Testament Jewish Law and the New Covenant of Christ(New Testament) which is freedom.


Your main point is that if God is Omniscient the he knows what will occur in the future and therefor an individual has no freewill. Well even lookig logically at that argument you can see that one doesnt equal the other. You still have your freewill to chose what you will no one is making that choice for you, but that doesn't mean that God can't know what the outcome is, neither does it contradict anything

God may know ultimately where your choices will lead you but you are still the one that takes yourself there. For instance God has always known what I would chose to eat for breakfast this morning, since he created me and knows me intimate, but but there is no to-do list each day when i wake up Where God tells me you willl have Waffles and Bacon today-then You will go to the bathroom promptly at 11:00am ect...

He may know that these are the things I will do but that just comes from knowing your creation and our tendencies.

JUst because he knows how your life will turn out does not mean he wont let you be born and live it the way you want to even though he is aware of where that leads, that is freewill actually

If God only allowed people to be born that were going to serve him with there lives and all go heaven then taht would infact take away humanities freewill. By not allowing the evil within man to exist with the righteousness of humanity through God.

Its kinda like Love, true love cannot be forced or coerced or manipulated. True love is a gift that we give freely to those we choose that accepts them for who they are, just as they are and puts them above yourself. God cannot force you to love him otherwise it would not be real love. sure he could have made a bunch of zombies that did nothing but his will and were obedient, but he wanted to experience tru love from his creation so he gave us this gift to be our own individuals and to choose to give our lives,love and submission to him or not to as we so choose, even though he knows where that will lead many of us.

But for the ones that choose his way over their own way, that means a life here on earth that is full of purpose the same purpose that many people spend their whole lives trying to figure out and happiness and joy continually elude them. If by Christ dying on the cross was only to save just one from perishing he would have done it, because of the gift he so longs to have from us is worth it. God doesn't ask you to cut yourself or climb up 1000 stairs on your knees to gain his acceptance or love, because its already there and has been since the beginning. All we have to do is take that Gift and relinquish our will to the will of the One who created us and believe in The Son he had to send as the universal sacrifice for the sin of humanity that could not co-exist with God because of his holiness. Christ was this path but sometimes the Gift that is given freely and without hesitation is the hardest to recieve.

As to being Omnipotent and making a rock so heavy that God could not lift it, this is kinda one of those if a tree falls in the forest type questions. Our brains cannot process the awsomeness of God, I'm still trying to get my head around the fact of eternity and a God with no end or beginning. I think in God's wisdom he would know better.

Originally posted by gordonwest
What? I have always kept on saying that *I* do NOT belive in being a christian. I do NOT need to be a christian to belive in God, and Jesus. Yeah, Jesus can do miracles. His father, God, is the real "savior" for humans. We are the "children of God", I am.

You might be mistaken here... or maybe I'm confused... or maybe its semantics..

Here is the definition of a christian according to Merriam-Webster : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ.

If you believe that jesus is a savior... You're christian mate... or maybe you can explain what you mean to me?

Originally posted by nj2day
I'm not using the bible as grounds for truth. I'm using the bible to demonstrate that either the bible is wrong, or the way in which it discribes god cannot be possible.

Which you haven't done.

If anything, by objectively looking at the bible as a whole (instead of verse/chapter like believers do) I have at the very least proven that the book is not a credible source.

You've proven nothing.

Perhaps to enlighten myself and others who have failed to appreciate the wonders of your proof you would like to take the opportunity to answer what I said earlier in this thread:
post by Supercertari

Originally posted by Good Wolf
I'm surprised at how many are talking about these 11 dimensions as if they are the hangout of the big bearded man in the sky. These are not alternate or supernatural dimensions. Four of them are hight, width, length and time, those are the dimensions we are talking about here, not other realities.

Yah, I tried to dispell that earlier... but no one was listening lol

The definition they are trying to use for "dimensions" is actually Alternate/Parallel Universes... Typically used in conjunction with Multiverse theory.

oh well... It seems pretty typical that christians will redefine words to suit their ideals.

**note, I intentionally said christians, and not believers... I haven't yet seen people of other faiths change the definitions of words half as much... I may someday, but haven't yet***

reply to post by nj2day


I know! As if the name wasn't a enough of a give away in itself. When you think dimensions, what do you think? SIZE! That's exactly the point, they are not other places, they are like the axis on a graph, cept instead of the 4 we are used to, there are actually 11.

I honestly do thankyou, Nj2day, for taking time and energy to keep on replying to my posts-replies.

It is the personal experience with God, to have that faith. My personal experience is unigue, I belive in God, and Jesus, because of what happened to me. God himself allowed me to know some of the secrets. Also, Satan also did affect me, aswell. What happened to me made me a glitch in time and space. I do NOT use those words what I have wrote lightly, because I am far more then just a secret. What happened to me nobody can not understand it in anyway, even if I tried to explain it in my own words. I might not be human, I do not know what I am, because of my "personal experience". I know my words might be confussing to you, but I know what I do mean.

Originally posted by nj2day

Originally posted by gordonwest
What? I have always kept on saying that *I* do NOT belive in being a christian. I do NOT need to be a christian to belive in God, and Jesus. Yeah, Jesus can do miracles. His father, God, is the real "savior" for humans. We are the "children of God", I am.

You might be mistaken here... or maybe I'm confused... or maybe its semantics..

Here is the definition of a christian according to Merriam-Webster : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ.

If you believe that jesus is a savior... You're christian mate... or maybe you can explain what you mean to me?

Originally posted by Supercertari
No, because God's omnipotence is about actual powers not imaginary powers. There is no power anywhere to make a stone so heavy He cannot lift it, the power does not exist therefore it is not a power to have.

Than he does not have boundless, unlimited power... which therefore supports my statement that he cannot exist As discribed in the bible

2) God's omniscience is not linear bound by the passage of time, His omniscience is that"To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace"

Unfortunately... WE are bound by the passage of time. Thus, if we are predestined, and he knows what our future holds... we cannot do anything to change that... if we do, we disprove his omniscience. you're arguing in paradoxes here. Besides the fact you just tried to prove that predestination exists, and it is included into free will...

This means no matter what we do, we are completing "his plan".

God knows where we are going "Predestination" He knows how we are going to get there, He does not force our root or destination. God's knowledge of our choices does not predetermine our choices. Our choices are not predetermined, we have free will. Predestined means God knows how we will choose not that He forces our hand to choose one way or another.

Actually, if the future is known and god is omniscient, we are powerless to stop what he has forseen. If we are powerless to change the outcome, how can we have free will?

Apparently the play is already written and the final act is known. If the final act changes, Omniscience is gone... If omniscience exists, than we are bound to the script, and can not deviate from the path that leads to the Final act.

See above answer.

Same for you

There is no "future" or "past" to God there is simply "I am." In that "am-ness" there is all power and all knowledge and by His grace these little creatures called humans who experience time and the freedom of choice bestowed upon us.

Are you in a position of omniscience to establish a decree by fiat? such as this?

reply to post by Good Wolf


A little off topic, but something i find absolutely fascinating:

The idea that gravity is from another dimension, or possibly a dimension in itself.

Its hard to wrap my head around, but it makes perfect sense. We cannot determine the origins of gravity as a force, because in our 4 dimensions, we can only record the effects. It would be akin to placing a magnet under a table to move a metal object. from the point of view of the metal object, it feels the force pulling it and manipulating it... but can not determine why...

Since matter/mass is related to gravity, To me this would mean that matter would work as dimensional anchors where all dimensions (or multiple dimensions) cross and create another set of axis...

Enough to give one a migraine... but absolutely fascinating none-the-less.

Supercertari

The Pope does not claim to be Christ on Earth. If you wish to discuss the papacy another thread would perhaps be more appropriate.

He used to and i did a thread on it.Of course it was ignored because it was telling people something they didn't want to hear.If you're interested feel free to have a look here.

Is The Pope God?
www.abovetopsecret.com...





MatrixProphet

Where we make the constant mistake is applying our irrational human, very limited thinking, to a highly evolved entity. He plain and simply can do whatever the hell he wants to! We need to honestly get that down!

Hi there.

I've tried to get that across to people before now.The divine being you believe in can do what they want when they want.If they can't,if they have laws to live by too then they cannot be all powerful because their actions are limited by another power.

Originally posted by gordonwest
I honestly do thankyou, Nj2day, for taking time and energy to keep on replying to my posts-replies.

I'll answer your posts as long as they continue to be thought out...

If you notice, many people in here just proclaim that they are right, and I'm wrong... without really presenting anything but different definitions of the words I presented, or by creating additional paradoxes.

The only thing I've proven, as I've noted, is that it is not possible to reconcile the bible and god. since it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of a deity, The bible has to be wrong...

It is the personal experience with God, to have that faith. My personal experience is unigue, I belive in God, and Jesus, because of what happened to me. God himself allowed me to know some of the secrets. Also, Satan also did affect me, aswell. What happened to me made me a glitch in time and space. I do NOT use those words what I have wrote lightly, because I am far more then just a secret. What happened to me nobody can not understand it in anyway, even if I tried to explain it in my own words. I might not be human, I do not know what I am, because of my "personal experience". I know my words might be confussing to you, but I know what I do mean.

are you saying you believe in the basic tenants of christianity
(jesus as the savior), but do not wish to assume the label? I can understand this position, as the label "Christian" has become attached to the organized religions.

Or are you saying you believe in a different theology all together...

trust me, I'm not poking fun, or being condescending. I am just trying to understand your beliefs... I think I've got it figured out, and that I was confused by a matter of semantics, but I may be wrong.



[edit on 28-11-2008 by nj2day]

Originally posted by nj2day
Than he does not have boundless, unlimited power... which therefore supports my statement that he cannot exist As discribed in the bible

Your not actually answering my point here, you are merely restating your previous point which I have already demonstrated is no proof of anything.
There is no such power. This is not a limit to power this is a “not power”, that you choose to use the word “power” to describe your imagining does not mean it is a power. Now when your finite mind can imagine the infinite God to begin with then you can start to imagine rocks bigger than Him – He’s not the old guy with the white beard in The World’s Strongest Man competition.

Unfortunately... WE are bound by the passage of time. Thus, if we are predestined, and he knows what our future holds... we cannot do anything to change that... if we do, we disprove his omniscience. you're arguing in paradoxes here. Besides the fact you just tried to prove that predestination exists, and it is included into free will...
This means no matter what we do, we are completing "his plan".

You insist on confusing predestination with predetermination. Many on this thread have explained this to you. Yes we are bound by time, God’s omniscience, God Himself, is not. He knows all things “now” but “not now” as He is in no time for there to be a “now.” If you think that’s nonsense then talk to some physicists about the second before the Big-Bang. God knows all that we have done, do and will do – He does not make us do them.

Actually, if the future is known and god is omniscient, we are powerless to stop what he has forseen. If we are powerless to change the outcome, how can we have free will?
Apparently the play is already written and the final act is known. If the final act changes, Omniscience is gone... If omniscience exists, than we are bound to the script, and can not deviate from the path that leads to the Final act.

You’re on the merry-go-round again. The outcome is already known to God outside time, you really should liberate yourself from this notion of God as a big bearded man in the sky watching everything we do and travelling along beside us in time. Omniscience is not a script it is knowledge, you’re confusing predestination and predetermination again.

Are you in a position of omniscience to establish a decree by fiat? such as this?

Fortunately for humanity I am not God, I think I would be rather partial to smiting and making people believe in me. I’d probably rethink the whole “free-will” thing and just make people worship me. Would save a lot of bother and having to watch the ants whirl around in pride.

reply to post by nj2day

Than he does not have boundless, unlimited power... which therefore supports my statement that he cannot exist As discribed in the bible

Its the omnipotence paradox,and many Christians like to ignore it.

If God can create a stone which he cannot lift,then he is not omnipotent,since he cannot lift the stone in question.

If God cannot create a stone which he cannot lift,then he is not omnipotent,since he cannot create the stone in question.

Omnipotence implies that God can lift anything,therefore it is illogical to say God can make a stone which He cannot lift.It is however logical to say if God can lift anything,then He is not capable of making a stone He cannot lift. Because He cannot make a stone He cannot lift,omnipotence is negated.

C.S. Lewis wrote.

This is no limit to His power.If you choose to say God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it',you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combination of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them to other words ‘God can.'

Related links.
plato.stanford.edu...
www.courses.rochester.edu...

Let me quickly evicerate this arguement once and for all.

Originally posted by nj2day

first lets agree on some definitions...

Omnipotent: All Powerful

Omniscience: Universal or Complete knowledge.

The definitions are fine as such, but then you go away from them when it suits your purpose.

2) Free will: If god is Omniscient, than he knows your future. If he knows your future, than it is already set in stone (if your future changed, god would cease to be omniscient). Therefore Free will cannot exist... Which can't be true, since the bible is the infallible word of god, and says we are created free.

You change the definition of Omniscience in midstream by saying God knows every action you will ever take, limitting His intelligence in the process.

God does not know what you, a free will agent capable of creative power, will do next. And that does not take anything away from omniscience.

God knows every possible action you CANtake, AND what outcome would would occur as a result of those actions!

That is far more omniscient than what you claim. Which means that God's actions - from prophesy to intervention to the life of Christ - are God's attempt to educate and influence the free will actions of humanity so that they will achieve the best possible outcome.

Now can we put this rather silly argument to bed, please? (I cannot believe you had the NERVE to use the "Can God make a rock..." line. What are you, 11?)

No, I am not a "christian". What I will try and explain to you is that what I belive. I do belive in God, as I do not belive in today's "message". I "try- have faith" in the time before, the time when there was no such thing as christians. Ohh...Originaly...God wanted humans to live in peace, with freewill, and to follow his commandments and (the animal sacrifice) to God, as God wanted humans to do. *Most christians have forgotten all the different kinds of the animal sacrifices-there were different types for different reasons*... I live in Australia, and we can not exacly do the animal sacrifices described in the bible. That era, the time zone I belive in. That area of the history, as God wanted his children to live as simple lives. That is what I belive in. I do not belive in today's message.

Originally posted by nj2day

Originally posted by gordonwest
I honestly do thankyou, Nj2day, for taking time and energy to keep on replying to my posts-replies.

I'll answer your posts as long as they continue to be thought out...

If you notice, many people in here just proclaim that they are right, and I'm wrong... without really presenting anything but different definitions of the words I presented, or by creating additional paradoxes.

The only thing I've proven, as I've noted, is that it is not possible to reconcile the bible and god. since it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of a deity, The bible has to be wrong...

It is the personal experience with God, to have that faith. My personal experience is unigue, I belive in God, and Jesus, because of what happened to me. God himself allowed me to know some of the secrets. Also, Satan also did affect me, aswell. What happened to me made me a glitch in time and space. I do NOT use those words what I have wrote lightly, because I am far more then just a secret. What happened to me nobody can not understand it in anyway, even if I tried to explain it in my own words. I might not be human, I do not know what I am, because of my "personal experience". I know my words might be confussing to you, but I know what I do mean.

are you saying you believe in the basic tenants of christianity
(jesus as the savior), but do not wish to assume the label? I can understand this position, as the label "Christian" has become attached to the organized religions.

Or are you saying you believe in a different theology all together...

trust me, I'm not poking fun, or being condescending. I am just trying to understand your beliefs... I think I've got it figured out, and that I was confused by a matter of semantics, but I may be wrong.



[edit on 28-11-2008 by nj2day]

reply to post by badmedia








Wrong. Wrong.


Wrong.

Originally posted by Supercertari
Your not actually answering my point here, you are merely restating your previous point which I have already demonstrated is no proof of anything.
There is no such power. This is not a limit to power this is a “not power”, that you choose to use the word “power” to describe your imagining does not mean it is a power. Now when your finite mind can imagine the infinite God to begin with then you can start to imagine rocks bigger than Him – He’s not the old guy with the white beard in The World’s Strongest Man competition.

I am re-asserting my origional opinion because you have, in a round about way, proven it for me.

Let me re-word the origional question and maybe you will understand:

"can god create an unstoppable force and move an immovable object?"

If he cannot create an unstoppable force nor an immovable object... he cannot be as the bible describes him.

Since the unstoppable force/immovable object conundrum has no logical answer, then the bible describes him inaccurately.

As I've said, I have not proven that a supreme being doesn't exist... this is impossible. I've proven the way the bible describes him is not possible.

You insist on proving this to me over and over again, then stating that I haven't proven anything... you are debating the existence, I'm debating the biblical description.

You insist on confusing predestination with predetermination. Many on this thread have explained this to you. Yes we are bound by time, God’s omniscience, God Himself, is not. He knows all things “now” but “not now” as He is in no time for there to be a “now.” If you think that’s nonsense then talk to some physicists about the second before the Big-Bang. God knows all that we have done, do and will do – He does not make us do them.

Both according to www.thefreedictionary.com...

Predetermine: To determine, decide, or establish in advance

Predestination: The divine decree foreordaining all souls to either salvation or damnation

In the context we are using here... these two are the same... if you wish to redefine them, then let me know...

And you are trying to dodge the question by stating that god is outside of time. While you might be able to decree that he is located outside of time, this does not change the fact that we are forced to recognize it... which means from our point of view... we've already been selected for damnation or salvation, regardless of "his" point of view because he really isn't allowed to change his mind due to his omniscience.

But, in genesis, it would appear that god is within time... as everything doesn't spontaniously appear at once... and is spread out over a series of days... he even was tired, and needed a vacation on the last day...

If we run with your definition of outside of time... than no more of god is needed than the initial spark... as he lives outside of time, he created the entire universe, knows how everything will turn out and no longer has any work to do. for all intents and purposes, you've described a god that might exist, but is on a permanent vacation of some sorts from our prespective.

You’re on the merry-go-round again. The outcome is already known to God outside time, you really should liberate yourself from this notion of God as a big bearded man in the sky watching everything we do and travelling along beside us in time. Omniscience is not a script it is knowledge, you’re confusing predestination and predetermination again.

I defined both words according to a dictionary. I think you're attempting to redefine the words themselves... It is beginning to sound like you are arguing yourself away from christianity and the bible, and towards the idea of Pantheism.

Fortunately for humanity I am not God, I think I would be rather partial to smiting and making people believe in me. I’d probably rethink the whole “free-will” thing and just make people worship me. Would save a lot of bother and having to watch the ants whirl around in pride.

Sounds like the god of the old testament to me