US Military.... why?

Originally posted by liquidsmoke206

I don't understand how people can see going into Iraq as "an act of evil" as someone on this page said. Wars are an amoral inevitability stemming from clashing national interests- it's only in the last 100 years or so (and only in the US and Western Europe) that it's been painted as something moral or immoral- it's not.

Killing people is just a job. I've done it and I sleep fine at night, and I know many people would kill me just as quickly. It's just a job; that's what happens when nation-states want different things badly enough.

I think this sums up reasons behind the existence of anti military sentiment on this site, or in society in general.
Thought processes such as this are not conducive to anything positive.
The real mystery is how people like, the OP, and Viking can't understand that people aren't OK with this kind of logic, or personality type....

"Killing people is just a job. I've done it and I sleep fine at night"-SuperViking, voice of the US military.

The point you are missing is that this fellow has supressed the consequences of his actions so he can continue to function and not let himself or his fellow soldiers die. I pray he leaves it there when he returns.

I also wonder why such a tree hugging, insult hurling pacifist like yourself is pointing a gun to his head as in your avatar picture? You seem a little confused or maybe just part of a New Jersey gang?

I've long since returned- I'm not even in the military anymore. I haven't been deployed since 2005 and since I've had all of one traffic ticket. The point is it's a job- there's no moral 'right' or 'wrong' to it.

Originally posted by SolarSeaman
I have never agreed with anything you have poster. I too agree that a special person is one called to shed blood in our defense and protection.

Eh, you just haven't seen my other posts about the military I would say. I've read quite a few of your posts and we agree more often than you think. I just typically don't chime in if someone else has already made the same point I would have.

Though I am a military veteran, I have a profound respect and admiration for those who serve their whole lives for us. I wish I were the kind of person to be able to do that. I wish I were so fortunate.

I have met many a combat veteran and I ask that consideration be given to them when criticizing the individual before going after the persons who order them to war. There are a small number of people in the world who commit acts not permitted while under the authority of a military command, and there is a law in place to deal with them - remember that law enforcement personnel are people too.

I salute my fellows and my Brothers, and I hope my fellow citizens do as well.

Very well put. Star for you.

reply to post by mf_luder


Having been in the military myself i don't like those who bash the whole of a countries armed forces.Just as i don't like people saying all us British are the same.

Even though its a natural thing for some people to lump everyone in together,military,countrymen/women,race,religion etc;Its so frustrating when people can't tell the difference between someone bashing the whole force and someone bashing those in the military guilty of committing crimes.Its like they can't see the forces as individual soldiers,they can only see it as a whole.So therefore you must be seeing it that way too.

Right, it's just a job. Some parts of the military have a religion and there are sects to it. Me for example - there's the Brotherhood of the Dolphin, for "normal" submariners...then I separate myself from these dudes and call my personal, one man belief Knights of the Shadow's of the Abyss - protectors of the people who you don't see or hardly hear about who do their jobs with not a single whimper aboard submarines. So, that is caused by my having non-qualifying eyesight specs for Special Warfare and Special Forces. I tried my best but in the end I gave too much of myself (doing a menial task at that - store's load, I took over the crappy part in the escape hatch for a "more valuable member of the community" so he wouldn't hurt hisself - fine looking body builder, no I am not attracted to men :lol. So, there's more crap in the story but basically I told the ship's corpsman that "Hey doc, my back hurts" and he said some bullcrap about how he would put me on report for malingering if I went to the shore hospital - he worked with Marines in the past and I expressed my knowledge of Ninjitsu to him in the wrong manner prior to the occasion of complaint - I guess that is proof noone is perfect - I got myself discharged (general under honorable conditions) to deal with my problem (MRI on the 12th Nov., FFS finally) and am disabled. ~~I hate nuclear power with a passion (ON SUBMARINES) so that was for the best~~

Anyways, back to rehab on the 10th, Marine Corps Birthday... Stick' em high, Recon!

(I am not crazy, I am just more unique than you. )

I am a trucker..I drive most of the highways of my state on a regular basis in any weather and at all times of day and night. On a fall morning that was very windy and raining at a rate of about half an inch an hour I was taveling on a very narrow stretch of highway in slow traffic close to a major city in my area. Up ahead I noticed a car pulled to the side in a fairly dangerous place. It seemed to be raining even harder than earlier. On the ground about 50 ft behind that car was an American Flag that looked like it had broken off the pole it was attached to on the back of someones pickup truck. This man got out of his car, with a cane, and was making his way into the wind towards the flag. He had on an Orange Marine ballcap and was about in his mid 60's. He made his way to the flag and picked it up, rolled it on what was left of the pole and headed back to his car. On the back window was a 'Retired Marine' sticker. People where honking their horns and yelling good cheer towards this old Marine. I have never forgotten this and it was 9 years ago. The Marines and the rest of our Service personel are all very much like this Vet. The thought of this always makes me smile and always brings a tear to my eye! This man is the epitomy of our armed sevices!


Zindo

reply to post by jakyll


You're wrong, brother.

I never said I lumped us all into one view - that's what set me off in the first place. I know we have people in our ranks who are less than desirable, I know that crime happens, that there are those who joined just to go kill people.

What I don't like is the very thing you just accused me of - I don't like it when people say "The US Army is......(insert bad name,idea here)" based off of the actions of the few.

That is true ignorance.

reply to post by Nicolas Flamel

I also wonder why such a tree hugging, insult hurling pacifist like yourself is pointing a gun to his head as in your avatar picture? You seem a little confused or maybe just part of a New Jersey gang?

You're assuming a lot about me there, and you don't even know enough about me to know what my avatar means.

I don't think anyone is realistically against the idea of a military, there might be a few people on here, but not many. Every country should have defense, although some don't need it(costa rica). I think it's more about the types of things associated with the military on so many levels.

reply to post by mf_luder


Oh,i wasn't implying you.I apologize if it seemed that way.

I know why you started this thread,and i agree with you.

reply to post by ZindoDoone


Thanks for sharing...

Always up for a good vibe recollection...!

reply to post by liquidsmoke206




you my friend=fail

To those who say they are not "Brainwashed" but carrying out orders.

Well do you not think for yourselves?

Many who state here they are marines etc and do not agree with the War or rather reasons that you are in Iraq, but Following Orders so its sort of ok?

Maybe civilians cant quite work that out.

Protecting whose freedom?

The Freedom of Oil executives and bush's friends?

Not yours or your countries at all, the world is a much more dangerous place because of these "Brave" men's actions under orders.

Maybe we cant figure that out.

Lets look at a KNOWN marines not a poster on here with no proof eh.



Brave Marines killing an injured unarmed man, and cheering.

Smiling and saying it was a "good feeling".

Maybe that's why us civilians don't get it.

Your high standards and bravery seem apparent.

Or this Honest marines interview about firing into a crowd of admitted unarmed civilians, who you say you are meant to be upholding their and your country men's right to free speech?


Staff Sergeant Marines:

Google Video Link

Can we trust his known experience beyond people posting what they say they have seen or done, or known people who have been there?

Lets see the bravery, and apparent non brainwashed or non murderous ways again, where US Marines gang Raped a 14 year old girl and then Killed the family:



Now this Freedom of expression you are fighting for means of the Videos cant be linked from You Tube it results in Invalid parameters..... mmm.... so lets show you the links and have a look at these:

US Apoligies For Killing Spree against Civilians Marines fire indiscriminately into Civilians in a Bazaar few days After another Marine Was Killed in Revenge!

That's not honourable soldiers.

That's not brave or manly, its Sick and Murder!

And made my world a lot more dangerous!

Or how about Marines Wooping and laughing as they Kill Innocent Civilians as they drive past them " I got 30 Into that Bitch" " Hooooraaa Yipeee" high pitched like a girl

Here:


Direct Link You Tube Marines killing civilians Graphic murder over 18 only and Profanities

Brave Men?

Brainwashed Children if you ask me.

Not all Soldiers are like this, but it seems that a large part of the US army is... shall I add the videos of Soldiers Firing into civilian Cars for fun and laughing to?

This is not Flaming, just I don't need to read peoples accounts on here of who you say you are, or who you know, in today's world its all there for us to see ourselves.

That's what us cissy civilians don't get.

How you can laugh as you destroy lives, fathers, mothers & children and than call yourselves brave.

Disgusted

Elf.

[edit on 5-11-2008 by MischeviousElf] Because the freedom of speech wont let you link easily, maybe not at all in the USA!

[edit on 5-11-2008 by MischeviousElf]

i dont blame the military for things, i blame the people above them who order them to do everything they do.

i feel awful for the numerous families who have lost loved ones, children, brothers, sisters, fathers and moms in wars but especially this one in particular. i blame the government for not having them back home where its safe. people only ever talk about how many soldiers have died there... they forget to talk about the HUGE amounts of soldiers with devastating injuries, as well as psychological problems.

i think everyone will be happy when this war ends and of course itll only last until the next war comes whenever thatll be, its inevitable. but why waste our time in a war right now when we dont need to be over there for any reason.

reply to post by MischeviousElf


You think these few examples you've provided speak for the majority of us?

reply to post by MischeviousElf


You do realize of course that the reason why you can't really find videos on youtube of the good people in the military is because no one records the good things right? Without watching the videos I can almost guarantee that most of the people shown in them are morons. How, you may ask, can I come to that conclusion without watching them? Because the only videos I have ever seen on youtube that are about members of the military are taped by morons and feature morons doing moronic things. (And yes, moron is today's word of the day.)

Do not discredit the personal accounts given in this thread. While I can't personally vouch for anyone's accounts but my own, I hardly think they have a reason to lie about their experiences with members of the military or reason to lie about being current or retired members themselves. And since personal accounts were called for in the OP they are more than relevant.

Originally posted by jakyll
reply to post by mf_luder

 

Oh,i wasn't implying you.I apologize if it seemed that way.

I know why you started this thread,and i agree with you.

Sorry to jump the gun on you then.

Originally posted by Jenna
reply to post by MischeviousElf

 

Without watching the videos I can almost guarantee that most of the people shown in them are morons. How, you may ask, can I come to that conclusion without watching them?

Do you know how moronic that may sound in itself?

You cant have an conclusion without seeing the evidence , only a point of view.

Because the only videos I have ever seen on youtube that are about members of the military are taped by morons and feature morons doing moronic things. (And yes, moron is today's word of the day.)

So you are saying then that the seperate companies of marines, in different years in different parts of Iraq, and Afghanistan are Morons.

Well you have to be I suppose to state

" it felt good" after killing unarmed injured men and cheering.

or shouting

"yipee" in a very high pitched voice After murdering innocent civilians just driving to work, and then saying

"Did you see those people I wasted"

Laugh and HOOOraaa then.

NO orders, just for fun.


Your post asserts that that the Marine Core are Morons?

Well I never said that.

And I asked all the Marines here, how can you go to war and fight even the Honourable ones, see your comrades maimed and killed, see the horror and suffering, the real men and warriors and soldiers when you Know the war is a Lie anyway, even if you wouldn't partake in this.

if you saw it happen would you report your squad members?

No that's the point there are no Warriors anymore, just brainwashed Kids.

That's what us civilians don't get.

And when we see the truth of what a large part of the Military is doing there as I showed above it makes us angry and sick.

I actually a couple of years ago when first seeing one of these videos nearly Threw Up as I saw innocent people being murdered.

That's what I don't get, the normal Human Emotion to seeing the murdering of innocent human beings.

The Joy where there should be revulsion.

They were someone's mum, dad's and children and sisters and brothers.

How just How is it always accompanied by Yipes of Joy and laughter.

How?

Elf

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
Do you know how moronic that may sound in itself?

You cant have an conclusion without seeing the evidence , only a point of view.

When it is more of the same, yes I can have a conclusion without watching these particular videos. I have seen some like them. No need to watch these too.

So you are saying then that the seperate companies of marines, in different years in different parts of Iraq, and Afghanistan are Morons.

..................

Your post asserts that that the Marine Core are Morons?

Well I never said that.

And the reading things in to what I type that aren't there begins. Please show where I said all marines are morons.

I said these videos are taped by morons (obviously if they are filming something illegal/immoral/unethical/etc.) that feature morons (once again obviously since they are doing something illegal/immoral/unethical/etc.) doing moronic things. (That would be the illegal/immoral/unethical/etc. part.)

Now what part of that equates to all marines? I'm afraid you're going to have to explain that one to me cause I don't see that phrase anywhere in that sentence or the one I posted previously.



EDIT to add in part of a quote that I accidentally deleted the first time.

[edit on 5-11-2008 by Jenna]

reply to post by Jenna


Semantics,

Clouding the Issue.

Most of the videos posted where Taped by marines themselves.

Why don't any of the Heroes answer my questions?

Would you report a fellow marine(s) if you saw this?

How can you go to war and kill people when you don't agree with the War, when you know it is for money and not freedom, or to protect your countrymen.

I suggest many here if they have not seen it already, watch the film by Stanley Kubrick - Full Metal Jacket, if they find the videos above not worth watching.

Many people don't realise that the Marine sergeant who trains them in the Film, was AN ACTUAL MARINE SERGEANT in Vietnam, he loved the Marine Corp, he was no actor, he fought bravely for his country, but after sending 30-40 kids to battle every 8-12 weeks after initial training, and seeing the huge numbers being killed, and realising that

The war was not about freedom.

The war was not about Protecting His country men or furthering the Cause of his countries values.

That it was wasteless and useless, he left the Marine Corp and became a outspoken critic of the brainwashing techniques he himself had propogated, where Kids go and Murder, kill and maim with no thought of why they doing it.

One of the Best Marine Corp Sergeant Trainers before the War.

A father who fought in the Second world War in the Marine Corp.

A grandfather who was in the services, all his life, upbringing and values had been based on this belief in Flag & Country was suspended,

When He Began To think For Himself.

And not just be a trained and paid murderer.

War is War, I respect greatly the men who lost their lives and fought for our freedom during the Second World war against Hitler, Mussolini and the Imperialistic Japanese, and the horrors they all reigned down on Europe, Africa, Asia etc.

I still observe Armistice day going silent and thanking the Bravery of those men.

I respect elders who lived through and fought that war today who are in most cases treated badly by the youth today, after they risked their lives for our freedom, no respect and often Poor.

They were true warriors. True heroes.

What is happening in Iraq and what happened in Vietnam/Korea though has nothing to do with Freedom, or country or the values the very marine Corp are based on.

Why again do those kids in the videos laugh and yipee as they kill innocent civilians?

Why?

Something is going wrong, and I personally do not think the marine Corp is a shadow of its proud past in today's world and its actions.

And no if you read my posts on this thread I do not believe that all Marines/Soldiers are doing this but it seems to be quite a lot and its very worrying.

I also feel sorry for the young kids coming home who have and have not done these dispicable actions.

Another generation of Boys turned into men with PTSD, another generation of Vets abandoned to their injuries.

Another generation of weeping mothers, wives and childrens in Iraq America Afghanistan, America Britain Australia.

For what a proven lie of WMD.

It saddens me greatly, and for those who are true Marines and not murderers will, I know take my posts here as actually caring for their comrades more than their government does.

They will know the truth of what I am saying, and are probably too ashamed to post their truth on this.

Think my friends, think for yourselves, there is no heroes in fighting for money.

If you truly respect your country, your Corp, the values of this, their is no way you can agree with the actions that have taken place.

It is the complete opposite of the stated values and beliefs of both, it is as bad as the brainwashed evil suicide bomber's themselves.

In fact a True marine would FIGHT AGAINST IT, if only on pen an paper and in truth.


Kind regards,

Elf.

reply to post by MischeviousElf

Why again do those kids in the videos laugh and yipee as they kill innocent civilians?

Why?

Kinda sounds like these kids running the streets in the US causing havoc, terrorizing communities, and killing innocent people as they play their role as a gangster. Notice how the media latches on to these stories and play them over and over again because of their senseless violence. Are these kids in gangs really representative of their peers? Should we label all of these kids as trouble makers and murders just because the kids in gangs are? Your evidence seems legit but even the Corps is prone to recruiting morons (since it is the word of the day) especially seeing as how the entire military has lower their standard in order to have sufficient members in its ranks. No matter what war we are in, you will always have examples like these. Do you think it was right for the US to drop bombs on a civilian population in Germany? How about when the military used flames to burn up the Japanese in caves? War is hell no matter how you see it.

The war was not about freedom.

That is your opinion and is very debatable. But war is not always about our freedom. When Clinton bombed the Serbs, was it about our freedom? When we went into Somalia, was it about our freedom? Many times the freedom is for the people of the country we are trying to liberate. I am not Afghan, but I would be interested to hear from some to see if they think they have more freedom. Should we have gone into Iraq in the first place? Really doesn't matter now. We are there. We made a mess of it and whether we were right or wrong about going in, we have a moral obligation to restore it to its prewar condition or better.