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My mothers near death experience-video
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reply to post by The Last Man on Earth
Hello The Last Man on Earth:
I am the mother eho had the NDE, I too am interested in knowing why you think I was in hell.
I was most happy and content where I was. I'm sorry to disagree with you but I might not have gone inside heaven as I didn't go through the gate, but I sure don't think I was in hell.
Peace to you,
Grandma
I am the mother eho had the NDE, I too am interested in knowing why you think I was in hell.
I was most happy and content where I was. I'm sorry to disagree with you but I might not have gone inside heaven as I didn't go through the gate, but I sure don't think I was in hell.
Peace to you,
Grandma
reply to post by randomguy
Hello:
Interesting post Jesus was there, I am sorry you missed him.
Peace,
Grandma
Hello:
Interesting post Jesus was there, I am sorry you missed him.
Peace,
Grandma
Can I ask; when your mother was having this experience was she on any medication at the time? I mean for pain or what have you? Aslo what illness was
she suffering from? And does she have a history of needing strong medication or any medication for that matter. And if so what is the medication. You
say you where studying alot of spiritual things before this happened as well, is that correct?
Im not being cheeky, I am genuinely interested.
We need to be mindful that a hallucination or dream state experience or as some call it "a near death experience", is not to be confused or taken as an after death experience because obvioulsy the person is not dead yet.
I am not discounting or refuting the story, and I too am glad your mother is alive, however this experience is not evidence as to what one can expect to see in the after life, as I have said, from what I can ascertain, you mother didn't die.
Please understand I am not mocking, I am only inquiring. I believe your mother had this experience and saw what she saw. We see things in dreams when we are alive our whole lives, often very vivid and extremely real.
I would be grateful if you would answer my queries.
In closing one can not build a factual doctrine around one persons experience regardless as to how it may tug at the heart strings or bring a tear to the eye, nor can one put their eternal security in anothers personal experience either. (well I suppose you can if you want, but I won't be) I dont say this to dampen anyones hope or to pour scorn, just a little reality check is needed in my opinion.
Thanks
Imago Dei.
[edit on 25-6-2009 by Imago Dei]
Im not being cheeky, I am genuinely interested.
We need to be mindful that a hallucination or dream state experience or as some call it "a near death experience", is not to be confused or taken as an after death experience because obvioulsy the person is not dead yet.
I am not discounting or refuting the story, and I too am glad your mother is alive, however this experience is not evidence as to what one can expect to see in the after life, as I have said, from what I can ascertain, you mother didn't die.
Please understand I am not mocking, I am only inquiring. I believe your mother had this experience and saw what she saw. We see things in dreams when we are alive our whole lives, often very vivid and extremely real.
I would be grateful if you would answer my queries.
In closing one can not build a factual doctrine around one persons experience regardless as to how it may tug at the heart strings or bring a tear to the eye, nor can one put their eternal security in anothers personal experience either. (well I suppose you can if you want, but I won't be) I dont say this to dampen anyones hope or to pour scorn, just a little reality check is needed in my opinion.
Thanks
Imago Dei.
[edit on 25-6-2009 by Imago Dei]
reply to post by Grandma
I don't believe you saw Heaven or Hell, I believe you were having hallucinations, and religion is such a big part of your life that it was what you were bound to hallucinate about.
I found all these things disturbing:
"Forboding chambers" coming off of palm trees (?), with cocoons inside in which you'd be trapped forever.
Cherubs kind of cute/kind of scary. Gibberish-mind-talking cherubs that don't want to talk to her. No hands? Paws and claws?
Feels the need to tell them to "don't make no trouble", and they can be pretty "devilish as they wanna be" etc. You have to watch them, they're clever? That's odd, isn't it?
A feast where she felt a sense of fear, last-supper type.
You get unnaturally tired.
Saw "the scary stuff" before she saw Jesus.
The scary field - field of blood, blood everywhere, dressed in white tunic, cleaning blood?! Blood everywhere, covered in it, she "didn't like it there, didn't like it there at all".
The woman on the horse, scary, didn't want her close, she was Death.
A room with walls of blood, oozing blood, it never stopped, she was frightened.
Things that could change their appearance - deception.
When "Jesus" asked her to go through the gates, the Cherubs telling her "do it, go through, its safe," despite the fact she doesn't trust them fundamentally - Jesus being too nice, etc, trying to persuade her. Cherubs trying to get her to go, insistent...creepy.
Beautiful streets of gold? Was Jesus a millionaire? Do you think the Devil will turn up in an armarni suit or a hobo's outfit? It all screamed of opulence and decadance to me, not piety and abstinence.
Frankly I found the whole thing to sound like one great deception, like a paedophile offering a child a sweet to encourage them to get into his car. It's all smiles and sunshine until the child is actually in the car...then it stops. It spooked me!
I don't believe you saw Heaven or Hell, I believe you were having hallucinations, and religion is such a big part of your life that it was what you were bound to hallucinate about.
I found all these things disturbing:
"Forboding chambers" coming off of palm trees (?), with cocoons inside in which you'd be trapped forever.
Cherubs kind of cute/kind of scary. Gibberish-mind-talking cherubs that don't want to talk to her. No hands? Paws and claws?
Feels the need to tell them to "don't make no trouble", and they can be pretty "devilish as they wanna be" etc. You have to watch them, they're clever? That's odd, isn't it?
A feast where she felt a sense of fear, last-supper type.
You get unnaturally tired.
Saw "the scary stuff" before she saw Jesus.
The scary field - field of blood, blood everywhere, dressed in white tunic, cleaning blood?! Blood everywhere, covered in it, she "didn't like it there, didn't like it there at all".
The woman on the horse, scary, didn't want her close, she was Death.
A room with walls of blood, oozing blood, it never stopped, she was frightened.
Things that could change their appearance - deception.
When "Jesus" asked her to go through the gates, the Cherubs telling her "do it, go through, its safe," despite the fact she doesn't trust them fundamentally - Jesus being too nice, etc, trying to persuade her. Cherubs trying to get her to go, insistent...creepy.
Beautiful streets of gold? Was Jesus a millionaire? Do you think the Devil will turn up in an armarni suit or a hobo's outfit? It all screamed of opulence and decadance to me, not piety and abstinence.
Frankly I found the whole thing to sound like one great deception, like a paedophile offering a child a sweet to encourage them to get into his car. It's all smiles and sunshine until the child is actually in the car...then it stops. It spooked me!
I watched them. There isn't really too much I can comment on. I have never seen such things, and in my vision I was just a white room with no
end, which I can only describe as being like the matrix loading room. Inside it, I seen a being who was just like a pure golden light. It asked
me a single question - do you want it to end? and after that I was shown myself the next day as if flying over the car, and then I was back to my
normal self.
When it happened, it was like my consciousness was pulled into another place, I wasn't intact with my body or the "world" at all. I wasn't near death or in bad health, just sitting on someone's porch. At that moment, I knew "the father was in me, and I in him", and that was followed by a period of time where I came to understand things. So as far as seeing anything, that is all I know.
But, what I know and understand about creation I would say it's not impossible. In fact, seeing anything is completely possible, as long as it is within some kind of laws of logic, as such is needed to create structure/creation. Word in genesis = logic. When I create programs, I create them with words of logic. In my programs, first comes the word, and then comes the result of it being applied/run. What is possible in logic is possible in creation. The vastness of all of creation itself is beyond definition. Even the part we can see, and that part represents like 0.00000000001% or some incredibly small number when you consider all of "time".
Some things did strike me as odd. Ra = God. I find that to be odd. As the father is the consciousness within all. I notice it was god, rather than father. Is there a reason for that? I can understand that Ra could be the closest thing to being god, and understanding and enlightenment beyond that of most people, but to be the father himself I find that to not be possible. IE: He is god in the sense he is closer or more "realized" on the topic than others, which would strongly indicate someone who does god's will. But to say he is the father himself I think I would disagree with.
As Jesus would say, the father is within him. And Jesus was obviously someone with more understanding than most. But to call Jesus the father himself I think is off, as Jesus would say - the father is much greater than I.
This can get a bit tricky, when you see that you can create universes within universes. When I worked on creating real intelligence, I came to realize certain things. It helped me understand consciousness/soul from the physical. If I put my consciousness into that creation, then I by default become god of that creation. I created the creation. However, I would still not be the father.
Another thing I found odd is that only those who were dead already from her earthly perspective were there. Time is not real. But this could also be done for certain reasons, I do not know. Just that I know it isn't impossible for you to have been there as well. Time does not exist, not only can consciousness travel back and forth, or in time like back to egypt, but there is every single possible thing you can think of and more.
What becomes reality depends on us, and in that way it is a completely personal experience with specific meaning and reason to the person. If you can think of it, then it exists somewhere. If it, or what comes to "life" is all based on us. Creation automatically adjusts in this manner to give us the lessons we need, thus our paths even though time seems to dictate it. Time is simply a change in dimensions. Every choice you make is a dimension change. It's a basic requirement for freewill, and it is a basic condition for actual intelligence. Lack of either results in bondage and ignorance. And of course, part of free will is the ability to give it away. If you love something, you set it free. If it loves you then it comes back. But anyway, for these reasons I find it odd that only those already dead from this world were present.
Another thing I found odd was that they believed in somethings, and didn't know other things. A good bit of focus on the literal, which I don't care for much.
All we ever really get is the word. Which is again the logic of creation. This means what really is going on is a bunch of equations and logic being followed. As such, any thing we "see" is simply a matter of variable values. Just as the cherubs were able to change themselves, this is because they are simply changing the values within the program. The word is like A+B=C(expression in itself), and like 1+1=2 is an expression of it, where each of those are values in the equation. Change A to 3, and you get 3+1=4 and the end value "C" changes as per the equation. So what she is seeing are her values on the equation. Obviously a bit more complicated than A+B=C.
I am always weary of that which focuses on the end value C, or "image", rather than the equation or understanding itself. That doesn't mean the end value C is in itself false or wrong. It just means you are focusing on the 1+1=2 rather than the A+B=C, at which point you neglect the rest of it. Like trying to put the father into only a single being, at that point you neglect the rest of the father.
It did contain the point of no return, which I find to be true. You can not go beyond that point because the limited perception required for this existence would be completely blown.
So I can't really say much about it other than it's possible, and what happened was a personal thing and would probably be in a context that would make the most sense to that person but not always for others. People discredit things because they conform to peoples beliefs, but it's just a variable change so I don't see what the big deal is. Does it matter if someone sees Santa or Jesus if they carry the same function/purpose and do the same thing? No, because the visible itself is just variables over the consciousness/spirit behind it. They say Satan can even appears as a being of light, which only goes to prove that point, it's not the images that are important, but what they do in action and function. Focus on names and images instead, and you leave yourself open for deception.
When it happened, it was like my consciousness was pulled into another place, I wasn't intact with my body or the "world" at all. I wasn't near death or in bad health, just sitting on someone's porch. At that moment, I knew "the father was in me, and I in him", and that was followed by a period of time where I came to understand things. So as far as seeing anything, that is all I know.
But, what I know and understand about creation I would say it's not impossible. In fact, seeing anything is completely possible, as long as it is within some kind of laws of logic, as such is needed to create structure/creation. Word in genesis = logic. When I create programs, I create them with words of logic. In my programs, first comes the word, and then comes the result of it being applied/run. What is possible in logic is possible in creation. The vastness of all of creation itself is beyond definition. Even the part we can see, and that part represents like 0.00000000001% or some incredibly small number when you consider all of "time".
Some things did strike me as odd. Ra = God. I find that to be odd. As the father is the consciousness within all. I notice it was god, rather than father. Is there a reason for that? I can understand that Ra could be the closest thing to being god, and understanding and enlightenment beyond that of most people, but to be the father himself I find that to not be possible. IE: He is god in the sense he is closer or more "realized" on the topic than others, which would strongly indicate someone who does god's will. But to say he is the father himself I think I would disagree with.
As Jesus would say, the father is within him. And Jesus was obviously someone with more understanding than most. But to call Jesus the father himself I think is off, as Jesus would say - the father is much greater than I.
This can get a bit tricky, when you see that you can create universes within universes. When I worked on creating real intelligence, I came to realize certain things. It helped me understand consciousness/soul from the physical. If I put my consciousness into that creation, then I by default become god of that creation. I created the creation. However, I would still not be the father.
Another thing I found odd is that only those who were dead already from her earthly perspective were there. Time is not real. But this could also be done for certain reasons, I do not know. Just that I know it isn't impossible for you to have been there as well. Time does not exist, not only can consciousness travel back and forth, or in time like back to egypt, but there is every single possible thing you can think of and more.
What becomes reality depends on us, and in that way it is a completely personal experience with specific meaning and reason to the person. If you can think of it, then it exists somewhere. If it, or what comes to "life" is all based on us. Creation automatically adjusts in this manner to give us the lessons we need, thus our paths even though time seems to dictate it. Time is simply a change in dimensions. Every choice you make is a dimension change. It's a basic requirement for freewill, and it is a basic condition for actual intelligence. Lack of either results in bondage and ignorance. And of course, part of free will is the ability to give it away. If you love something, you set it free. If it loves you then it comes back. But anyway, for these reasons I find it odd that only those already dead from this world were present.
Another thing I found odd was that they believed in somethings, and didn't know other things. A good bit of focus on the literal, which I don't care for much.
All we ever really get is the word. Which is again the logic of creation. This means what really is going on is a bunch of equations and logic being followed. As such, any thing we "see" is simply a matter of variable values. Just as the cherubs were able to change themselves, this is because they are simply changing the values within the program. The word is like A+B=C(expression in itself), and like 1+1=2 is an expression of it, where each of those are values in the equation. Change A to 3, and you get 3+1=4 and the end value "C" changes as per the equation. So what she is seeing are her values on the equation. Obviously a bit more complicated than A+B=C.
I am always weary of that which focuses on the end value C, or "image", rather than the equation or understanding itself. That doesn't mean the end value C is in itself false or wrong. It just means you are focusing on the 1+1=2 rather than the A+B=C, at which point you neglect the rest of it. Like trying to put the father into only a single being, at that point you neglect the rest of the father.
It did contain the point of no return, which I find to be true. You can not go beyond that point because the limited perception required for this existence would be completely blown.
So I can't really say much about it other than it's possible, and what happened was a personal thing and would probably be in a context that would make the most sense to that person but not always for others. People discredit things because they conform to peoples beliefs, but it's just a variable change so I don't see what the big deal is. Does it matter if someone sees Santa or Jesus if they carry the same function/purpose and do the same thing? No, because the visible itself is just variables over the consciousness/spirit behind it. They say Satan can even appears as a being of light, which only goes to prove that point, it's not the images that are important, but what they do in action and function. Focus on names and images instead, and you leave yourself open for deception.
Originally posted by Imago Dei
Can I ask; when your mother was having this experience was she on any medication at the time? I mean for pain or what have you? Aslo what illness was she suffering from? And does she have a history of needing strong medication or any medication for that matter. And if so what is the medication. You say you where studying alot of spiritual things before this happened as well, is that correct?
Im not being cheeky, I am genuinely interested.
We need to be mindful that a hallucination or dream state experience or as some call it "a near death experience", is not to be confused or taken as an after death experience because obvioulsy the person is not dead yet.
I am not discounting or refuting the story, and I too am glad your mother is alive, however this experience is not evidence as to what one can expect to see in the after life, as I have said, from what I can ascertain, you mother didn't die.
Please understand I am not mocking, I am only inquiring. I believe your mother had this experience and saw what she saw. We see things in dreams when we are alive our whole lives, often very vivid and extremely real.
I would be grateful if you would answer my queries.
In closing one can not build a factual doctrine around one persons experience regardless as to how it may tug at the heart strings or bring a tear to the eye, nor can one put their eternal security in anothers personal experience either. (well I suppose you can if you want, but I won't be) I dont say this to dampen anyones hope or to pour scorn, just a little reality check is needed in my opinion.
Thanks
Imago Dei.
[edit on 25-6-2009 by Imago Dei]
Hello Imago
Ask all the question you would like. I want to repeat we dont bring this as a fact or a proof for anything...we bring it is a phenomenal experience and that is all.
Now personally, it has hit home with mom or me or the family in more ways then one. Out of the entire experience, there is only 1/4th of the experience on the videos. The visions were constant and lasted almost half of the day.
My mother has fought a disease called Sarcoidiosis (not sure sp?)for over 10 years. She has had several times through out her life that she was having health issues that she has seen angels so this major NDE is not her first time seeing things phenomenal things as such. Her disease has lead to organs failing and bones breaking...she has been bed ridden for over 3 years. In the past few years she has broken both hips and one of these surgeries gave her staph infection which has left her without alot of her hip bone and constant infections ever since.
This particular experience happened through moms kidneys failing from antibiotics toxicating her kidneys. She has fought staph and sudimonis (again sp?) infections which require strong IV antibiotics that can be toxicating after some time. This has happened several times to her but this time her kidneys failed her, she ended up on life support and finally dialisis. The visions happened beofre the life support was isssued for her. It was insane, I pretty much had to go to her doctors office and tell him to get her out of that hospital and send her to a bigger city. She was unconcious before they moved her and the main hospital she was moved to said they didnt know how she stayed alive.
At the time of her experience, she was taking a low dose of morphine and had been taking this dose for at least a couple of years. The morphine was for her hip pain. She was never looped on the morphine...it was a very low dose. At the hospital they gave her a dose of morphine but like I said, this i was her normal dose and they gave it to her in a shot form instead of the pill because at the time they were worried about her choking on anything because she couldnt stay conscious. I have thought about the morphine having any affect..I could be wrong...but why would it bring on 9 hours of visions that only seemed to become more clear the farther they went. Plus, she was used to morhpine. In fact, it was getting to the point that she was on it for so long she was becoming immune to it...for it was not helping her pain any more.
I agree with your caution totally...she was not dead and we cearly are not trying to say this is what happenens when one dies. I think you are very very right that no one should place their own personal security in another experience or belief for that matter.
I hope I answerd what you needed!
Add to answer a question I forgot...we were studying the Gospels of Peace.
My best
LV
[edit on 25-6-2009 by LeoVirgo]
Originally posted by The Last Man on Earth
reply to post by Grandma
I don't believe you saw Heaven or Hell, I believe you were having hallucinations, and religion is such a big part of your life that it was what you were bound to hallucinate about.
I found all these things disturbing:
"Forboding chambers" coming off of palm trees (?), with cocoons inside in which you'd be trapped forever.
Cherubs kind of cute/kind of scary. Gibberish-mind-talking cherubs that don't want to talk to her. No hands? Paws and claws?
Feels the need to tell them to "don't make no trouble", and they can be pretty "devilish as they wanna be" etc. You have to watch them, they're clever? That's odd, isn't it?
A feast where she felt a sense of fear, last-supper type.
You get unnaturally tired.
Saw "the scary stuff" before she saw Jesus.
The scary field - field of blood, blood everywhere, dressed in white tunic, cleaning blood?! Blood everywhere, covered in it, she "didn't like it there, didn't like it there at all".
The woman on the horse, scary, didn't want her close, she was Death.
A room with walls of blood, oozing blood, it never stopped, she was frightened.
Things that could change their appearance - deception.
When "Jesus" asked her to go through the gates, the Cherubs telling her "do it, go through, its safe," despite the fact she doesn't trust them fundamentally - Jesus being too nice, etc, trying to persuade her. Cherubs trying to get her to go, insistent...creepy.
Beautiful streets of gold? Was Jesus a millionaire? Do you think the Devil will turn up in an armarni suit or a hobo's outfit? It all screamed of opulence and decadance to me, not piety and abstinence.
Frankly I found the whole thing to sound like one great deception, like a paedophile offering a child a sweet to encourage them to get into his car. It's all smiles and sunshine until the child is actually in the car...then it stops. It spooked me!
Wow...thanks for bringing your honest feelings here! Really...this is the kind of thing I have thought about many times and mom too...because we want to be cautious.
I think for us anyways...we have kinda concluded that she has no idea what heaven was about...she didnt go through the gate. She only experienced being tied still to a earthly plain where she was very aware and then she seems to go to higher plains (or lower, depending on how you look at it).
For me, she experiences a very Earthly place that seems to be a spiritual greeting area but also a area that has ones personal own deepest earthly attachments as well. She was tired, saw loved ones, feast of food...I believe the cocoons in the tree were possibly similar to something Enoch described once about a tree of reincarnation. Mabey...just mabey....if one was to seek the rest for their tired body over seeking the curiosity that filled their mind in this new place...the soul would of reincarnated, not giving enough interests to the curious mind...(BIG MABEY, I am only giving thoughts that are subject to change)....you have to see...I was sitting in this chair watching her smile and hug people....with her eyes closed...I would watch tears roll down her cheek to only find out a moment later she would tell me of her son or Jesus (those were the 2 things that mde her cry). What was the strangest was she also saw things while awake. She showed me where the angels stood by her bed and said they were always there comforting her. She said the cheribs were also something she saw while awke...that 3 were over my head. When she awoke after the 3 days...she saw while awake alot of dust and electricity in the air. She described it like lights traveling on a matrix. She saw lights connected to people also for a short while after she came back to conciousness...she described a glowing gold light that beamed above my body and tied into the matrix of lights somehow.
For me, the cherubs are a ancient creature that has been described in many beliefs. The four faced creature....that can change faces....IF there is a creature that can travel from earth plain to heavens plain....I would not be surprised if it would be a creature that people did not understand their purpose and place. If they hold the truth...they could very well be a creature that has its own way of things...and when she described them as being devilish...she actually had a smile on her face when she said this....the same kind of smile she would have if she looked at her grand kids and told them 'not to make any trouble u little sneaks'....whos to say cherubs doent have a dry sense of humor in a way....mabey they were laughing at me for my mouth laying on the floor and me trying to pick it up....who knows. But I could also tell...she really felt they held great secrets, or wisdom about many things. I think if they were to hold great wisdom's about all tings....they would not be your every day little angel.
Now my take on the field of blood and the lady is only my personal thoughts...not my moms thoughts and certainly not a fact of anything.
In the earthly place, she was shown many things she had to work on and was retaught many things that they told her she would not remember. The last thing she saw or experienced in the earthly plain was the field of blood. She was alone and frighted. The only thing I have to say about this is....what if this was like her hell.....what if by her thinking she had to be washed in the blood...she was literally seeing herself in her wrong....which is why she was alone...she had to experience this by her self....to receive feelings on if this was a correct concept to have or a false concept to have. Imagine having a eternity of cleaning up blood. The lady that came on the horse was holding a book...she seemed to be keeping records of sorts....of moms perception or thoughts. I think we all have a scribe, a higher self...that will meet us at death...or even keeps track throughout our life...of our spiritual growth. I think we all have a book. She saw the woman as death because the woman very well held the answers to her life. She feared of haviong to stay there in the blood.
But she moves on....and it seems she leaves this earthly plain for a more out of body experience where she was NOT tired nor hungry....she has said many times it seems as if she could of stayed there under the sphinx for as long as she wanted...time didnt seem to be an issue in this level of the exsperience. It seems to me that she went to a third level....via the olive tree she saw in Petra. The funny thing is...and she laughs about this often....is SHE KNOWS there are no olive trees in Petra. It was like it was what allowed her to the next level in away....which was when she was by the gate....again feeling tired and again feeling connected again to her body.
I agree with many things you showed concern about...I too have been the devils advocate to her many many times saying what ifs and trying to show caution at all costs.
I do not have all the answers for life nor death...but I know that on that day...I glimpsed another world. I felt I was in a presence that I was afraid to pull her from. The fact that when she awoke and there seemed to be a presence that wanted her to die scared me more then any of the visions. I felt...mabey....what she saw...is something that some evil spirit does not want her to share with others
Mabey we have a part in our after life...mabey the term of us becoming Elohim is more deep then any one can fathom.
I really appreciate your honesty....I wouldnt expect anyone to not be honest on how the experience makes them feel. It was a very lonely and helpless feeling when she was telling me about the blood and how she was afraid. I kept stirring her because I didnt want her to fall to a deep consciousness while experiences that place. I think the fact I kept stirring her and not allowing her to fall deep into unconsciousness is what allowed her to keep moving through and never stopping at some of the places that were offered. In Egypt and some other beliefs...they believes that one would be tested in the afterlife and would still have to DISCERN things....even in the afterlife. Mabey she was givin some tests or examples...to show herself what she saw as important and mabey show her some things that were not that important.
Thanks much for elaborating for me! I think you brought up great points...all of which I have pondered on much...
My best
LV
[edit on 25-6-2009 by LeoVirgo]
Originally posted by badmedia
I watched them. There isn't really too much I can comment on. I have never seen such things, and in my vision I was just a white room with no end, which I can only describe as being like the matrix loading room. Inside it, I seen a being who was just like a pure golden light. It asked me a single question - do you want it to end? and after that I was shown myself the next day as if flying over the car, and then I was back to my normal self.
When it happened, it was like my consciousness was pulled into another place, I wasn't intact with my body or the "world" at all. I wasn't near death or in bad health, just sitting on someone's porch. At that moment, I knew "the father was in me, and I in him", and that was followed by a period of time where I came to understand things. So as far as seeing anything, that is all I know.
But, what I know and understand about creation I would say it's not impossible. In fact, seeing anything is completely possible, as long as it is within some kind of laws of logic, as such is needed to create structure/creation. Word in genesis = logic. When I create programs, I create them with words of logic. In my programs, first comes the word, and then comes the result of it being applied/run. What is possible in logic is possible in creation. The vastness of all of creation itself is beyond definition. Even the part we can see, and that part represents like 0.00000000001% or some incredibly small number when you consider all of "time".
Some things did strike me as odd. Ra = God. I find that to be odd. As the father is the consciousness within all. I notice it was god, rather than father. Is there a reason for that? I can understand that Ra could be the closest thing to being god, and understanding and enlightenment beyond that of most people, but to be the father himself I find that to not be possible. IE: He is god in the sense he is closer or more "realized" on the topic than others, which would strongly indicate someone who does god's will. But to say he is the father himself I think I would disagree with.
As Jesus would say, the father is within him. And Jesus was obviously someone with more understanding than most. But to call Jesus the father himself I think is off, as Jesus would say - the father is much greater than I.
This can get a bit tricky, when you see that you can create universes within universes. When I worked on creating real intelligence, I came to realize certain things. It helped me understand consciousness/soul from the physical. If I put my consciousness into that creation, then I by default become god of that creation. I created the creation. However, I would still not be the father.
Another thing I found odd is that only those who were dead already from her earthly perspective were there. Time is not real. But this could also be done for certain reasons, I do not know. Just that I know it isn't impossible for you to have been there as well. Time does not exist, not only can consciousness travel back and forth, or in time like back to egypt, but there is every single possible thing you can think of and more.
What becomes reality depends on us, and in that way it is a completely personal experience with specific meaning and reason to the person. If you can think of it, then it exists somewhere. If it, or what comes to "life" is all based on us. Creation automatically adjusts in this manner to give us the lessons we need, thus our paths even though time seems to dictate it. Time is simply a change in dimensions. Every choice you make is a dimension change. It's a basic requirement for freewill, and it is a basic condition for actual intelligence. Lack of either results in bondage and ignorance. And of course, part of free will is the ability to give it away. If you love something, you set it free. If it loves you then it comes back. But anyway, for these reasons I find it odd that only those already dead from this world were present.
Another thing I found odd was that they believed in somethings, and didn't know other things. A good bit of focus on the literal, which I don't care for much.
All we ever really get is the word. Which is again the logic of creation. This means what really is going on is a bunch of equations and logic being followed. As such, any thing we "see" is simply a matter of variable values. Just as the cherubs were able to change themselves, this is because they are simply changing the values within the program. The word is like A+B=C(expression in itself), and like 1+1=2 is an expression of it, where each of those are values in the equation. Change A to 3, and you get 3+1=4 and the end value "C" changes as per the equation. So what she is seeing are her values on the equation. Obviously a bit more complicated than A+B=C.
I am always weary of that which focuses on the end value C, or "image", rather than the equation or understanding itself. That doesn't mean the end value C is in itself false or wrong. It just means you are focusing on the 1+1=2 rather than the A+B=C, at which point you neglect the rest of it. Like trying to put the father into only a single being, at that point you neglect the rest of the father.
It did contain the point of no return, which I find to be true. You can not go beyond that point because the limited perception required for this existence would be completely blown.
So I can't really say much about it other than it's possible, and what happened was a personal thing and would probably be in a context that would make the most sense to that person but not always for others. People discredit things because they conform to peoples beliefs, but it's just a variable change so I don't see what the big deal is. Does it matter if someone sees Santa or Jesus if they carry the same function/purpose and do the same thing? No, because the visible itself is just variables over the consciousness/spirit behind it. They say Satan can even appears as a being of light, which only goes to prove that point, it's not the images that are important, but what they do in action and function. Focus on names and images instead, and you leave yourself open for deception.
I like what you say here..
What becomes reality depends on us, and in that way it is a completely personal experience with specific meaning and reason to the person. If you can think of it, then it exists somewhere.
I think its best to stay open to what is 'possible'. Do we really know?? Pride can get the best of one in thinking they do 'know'.
I asked mom about Jesus calling her daughter...and she did not feel like Jesus called her this because he was the father but more because she was the younger one and he the elder one. She says it was common for elders to call one daughter...even though biologically it was not so. I am sure she will comment more on that...and still by all means...we dont take anything as a 100% understanding. It might of solely been said that way to her for comfort, for her own belief of Jesus being God..therefor being the father...I do not know and cant say for sure.
It was very odd for me...someone who has a open mind about my faith seeing someone with a very strict idea of their faith...seeing things that didnt always agree with her belief. This I found very odd and I think we are a big part in our after life....possibly having to discern amny things before we can be what we are to be.
As you said, it may be personal to her for a leasson or growth....and others might not get any understanding out of it.
But I think we do not know all the answers....and so I think its important to share things like this with others....who is to say that truths are not trying to reach us in some way or another. When she was being retaught things...she was not allowed to tell me certain things. It was in one of those moments of being shown things that she looked at me and said someone needs to build another Ark....go figure...I thought...surely I am not going to start building a big boat!
We have laughed and cried through pondering on this experience. What ever it was and how ever it happened...I dont think either one of us would want for it to of not happened....it was the wildest but coolest thing to glimpse at and ponder on. We had actually a week before the experience talked about how we dedicated our lives before God to work through us and show people the possibility of this is not the life we are to strive for. Knowing we had done this...and then sitting there listening to her in that quite hospital room that day about being with angels, loved ones and Jesus...I couldnt help but to of though.....Lord, what did we get ourselves into....
But we are very thankful...to just still be sharing our thoughts together today and hopefully many more days to come.
Thanks for taking the time to watch them badmedia and giving some feedback on how many things are possible.
My best
LV
Originally posted by LeoVirgo
it...for it was not helping her pain any more.
I agree with your caution totally...she was not dead and we cearly are not trying to say this is what happenens when one dies. I think you are very very right that no one should place their own personal security in another experience or belief for that matter.
I hope I answerd what you needed!
Add to answer a question I forgot...we were studying the Gospels of Peace.
My best
LV
[edit on 25-6-2009 by LeoVirgo]
•Antibiotics toxic kidneys.
•she has seen angels so this major NDE is not her first time seeing things phenomenal things as such
•At the time of her experience, she was taking a low dose of morphine and had been taking this dose for at least a couple of years.
•At the hospital they gave her a dose of morphine , this was her normal dose and they gave it to her in a shot form instead of the pill
Thank you very much for you candid honest answers. I feel that being on morphine pills, even a "low" dose coupled with toxification for heavy doses of anti biotics may have contributed to hallucinations, then morphine administerd by injection (which is powerful compared to doses being taken by pills) would, without doubt, explain the vivid hallucinations for long periods of time.
Once in my crazy youth I took a Katamine tablet which is horse tranquilizer, I experienced extremely vivid hallucinations of both hell and heaven and God and demons etc, in fact the whole dawn sky turned into Gods benevolent face looking down at me, after hours and hours of having ingested the tablet. (all this when I was fully awake and fully healthy) The mind is an amazing thing. Now, is what I saw real as if some sort of "spiritual" portal was opened by the drug? Or was it simply an hallucination? That is potentially a whole other topic.
As the bible warns against pharmacia IE drug use (and of course I dont mean for health reasons) it is quite possible that drugs do pull back the vail to allow a glimpse into the spiritual, however if God is warning against it, one can safely assume that what we may be seeing, in a drug induced hallucination, is most probably evil or at the very least a deception that can't be trusted.
I think, with a certainty, your mothers experiences are drug induced hallucinations. I also feel that the term "Near Death Experience" is a very misleading term indeed. Because it poses and cloaks it with the assumption that it is an "after death" experience, many people here seem to lend credence to that view and have concluded that you story means they no longer need to "fear" death. Why? This is near death (arguably no where near death aswell as the case me be. Not death and definately not an after-life experience.
That said, I feel for the terrible suffering your mother has endured and I wish her well and I wish her peace and happiness. Thank you for sharing your experiences and at least being open to alternative view points and conclusions.
[edit on 25-6-2009 by Imago Dei]
reply to post by Imago Dei
Hello again!
I understand where you are coming from. I have looked into every possibility really...I am a student of Psychology so for me it was very important to look at every angle. If any part of me felt it was a hallucination..I would not of made videos of my mother and shared this with people.
But I do not believe (opinion) that these were hallucinations. When the visions began, she was not considered in bad health...she was being treated for respiration's problems and blood pressure problems and the kidney trouble came on about half way through the day. The visions actually started well before her health went way down hill. I would say about half way through the visions is when kidney failure was being suggested. Which is why she went on with the visions for so long with nothing really being done to her...the doctor thought everything was ok and was actually ready to send her home later on that day. As the day went on...and the more things I witnessed, the more firm I became with the doctor to check everything out. In the early morning when the visions started, the only noted problem she was having was getting very few respiration's. I know low oxygen can cause hallucinations...but I have yet to find similar experiences that go into so much detail and personal aspects. Sometimes...one has to go with their intuition or gutt feeling...this is one of those times Im going to choose my gutt here and say this was not a hallucination.
I have yet to find a example of morphine induced hallucinations that even touch the vividness of her experience. The doctor himself said that this was not the cause. Even the doctor loves to hear her retell her story and says that he has never heard of a hallucination being like hers. This certainly does not make it a fact...but a very rare story.
She has been to the hostpital a number of times for her kidneys being toxicated....I have seen people while their kidneys were failing with no hallucinations...so its really hard to say as a fact this was the case.
I have a very hard time believing a low does of morphine (which she was immune to) would of caused all of this.
I really feel ike she was experiencing another dimension in osme way....I know this is an opinion...and I am not trying to prove my opinion either. I understand for many with strict religious beliefs they are going to assume with her having a drug of any sort in her body that this would of fogged her rights to be divinly saved or brought a divine experience.
But I do believe it was...a divine experience. I believe it was very personal to her and she was shown things about her life she needed to focus on. I believe if she would of went through the gate she would not be here. She saw things that connected her son that has passed to her son that is alive. It goes very deep in a very personal way to our family. That alone, for us...is proof that this was more then a hallucination.
But your thoughts are well noted and welcome....always. I do understand why you think what you do.
Thanks for adding great thoughts here!
My best to you and yours
LV
Hello again!
I understand where you are coming from. I have looked into every possibility really...I am a student of Psychology so for me it was very important to look at every angle. If any part of me felt it was a hallucination..I would not of made videos of my mother and shared this with people.
But I do not believe (opinion) that these were hallucinations. When the visions began, she was not considered in bad health...she was being treated for respiration's problems and blood pressure problems and the kidney trouble came on about half way through the day. The visions actually started well before her health went way down hill. I would say about half way through the visions is when kidney failure was being suggested. Which is why she went on with the visions for so long with nothing really being done to her...the doctor thought everything was ok and was actually ready to send her home later on that day. As the day went on...and the more things I witnessed, the more firm I became with the doctor to check everything out. In the early morning when the visions started, the only noted problem she was having was getting very few respiration's. I know low oxygen can cause hallucinations...but I have yet to find similar experiences that go into so much detail and personal aspects. Sometimes...one has to go with their intuition or gutt feeling...this is one of those times Im going to choose my gutt here and say this was not a hallucination.
I have yet to find a example of morphine induced hallucinations that even touch the vividness of her experience. The doctor himself said that this was not the cause. Even the doctor loves to hear her retell her story and says that he has never heard of a hallucination being like hers. This certainly does not make it a fact...but a very rare story.
She has been to the hostpital a number of times for her kidneys being toxicated....I have seen people while their kidneys were failing with no hallucinations...so its really hard to say as a fact this was the case.
I have a very hard time believing a low does of morphine (which she was immune to) would of caused all of this.
I really feel ike she was experiencing another dimension in osme way....I know this is an opinion...and I am not trying to prove my opinion either. I understand for many with strict religious beliefs they are going to assume with her having a drug of any sort in her body that this would of fogged her rights to be divinly saved or brought a divine experience.
But I do believe it was...a divine experience. I believe it was very personal to her and she was shown things about her life she needed to focus on. I believe if she would of went through the gate she would not be here. She saw things that connected her son that has passed to her son that is alive. It goes very deep in a very personal way to our family. That alone, for us...is proof that this was more then a hallucination.
But your thoughts are well noted and welcome....always. I do understand why you think what you do.
Thanks for adding great thoughts here!
My best to you and yours
LV
Originally posted by LeoVirgo
I really feel ike she was experiencing another dimension in osme way....I know this is an opinion...and I am not trying to prove my opinion either. I understand for many with strict religious beliefs they are going to assume with her having a drug of any sort in her body that this would of fogged her rights to be divinly saved or brought a divine experience.
If one is saved through faith in Christ, then what ever drugs one is on for health reasons will not fog anyone's rights to be saved, in fact nothing will, one is sealed for all eternity by the blood of Christ.
Now that you appear to have taken things that one step further by ruling out hallucinations altogether and are now attributing your mothers experience to that of "divine visions" divine experience" even "Divine Revelation", I will have to leave you to that, I don't buy that for a nano second, sorry no offense intended. You are taking it to another level.
Be aware that you are entering into dangerous territory with such claims in my view, claims like this are the initial seedling phases of "Special divine revelation from God" As we know this is how all of the false doctrines outside of the bible find their feet, usually in the from of "A Divine Messenger" who has been given "a fesh vision by God". Jehovahs Witness, Mormonism, The Koran, Jim Jones, Scientology and on and on and on it goes. ALL of these "claimed" to have been given a divine message from God and they went onto have lead milliions upon millions of people astray.
The Holy Bible is the only Divine authority on the issues of eternity and the afterlife, nothing and no one else can be trusted if they go down this road. I sincerely hope you dont go down this slippery slope. However, sadly it appears that you now already are.
If you really do want to go that far may I suggest you keep it in the family and personal to your mother as you have stated it is, because if you are ever tempted to start evangelising people as though it is a divine revelation from God and start preaching so, you will find yourself becoming more and more influenced and open to powers (not of God, but powers all the same) that you will potentially delude and consume you in ways that you could never imagine.
I know that sounds a bit heavy, but this is heady heavy stuff. Why? Well demons are eternal, and demons know our histrory and all the interlinking connections of our family, generationla history aswell. This is how Clairvoants and phsycics can tell you things about your family and dead relatives, they are communing directly with demonic entities who know everything about you. It gives people the illusion of an afterlife and that your loved ones are sending you messages. Well they aren't, its demonic and exceedingly dangerous and God warns againts this in the bible. In these visions your mother was told about relations with her son.
Be careful. Yes if she had walked through "the door" she may not be here. God spared her life. I trust she has received the Lord Jesus Christ as her saviour now, because if she hasnt, when she walks through that door next time without Christ, she may not get a second chance.
Get stuck into the word of God and read it, you seem to be interested in spiritual things. Why not read the book that has been irrefuteably proven to have been given to us by "divine inpiriation" by the very creator and author of the universe?
God bless you and your family,
PS. The book of Enoch is not included is the 66 books of the bible for a reason, the reason is that it has been proven not to be divinely inspired. Meaning it is not the word of God. It may be a great read, in fact I want to read it myself. But it is not to be trusted as divine revelation. There are even Christians who will disagree with this. But I could provide you with poof that the changing of just a few words in scripture change the perfect mathmical formula throughout a verse and or a chapter, and there is a prfect divine numerical pattern in the number of books that takes a bokk of over 60 pages just to explain it, a phenomenon that can't be refuted, adding just a few chapters would throw this formula totally out, let alone adding another complete book.
[edit on 26-6-2009 by Imago Dei]
reply to post by Imago Dei
Numbers 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
It goes on to say moses is different because he is faithful in all his houses etc.
The most potent hallucinogenic drug known to man is produced naturally by the brain. It is what causes dreams, and affects what is called the minds eye.
As the kingdom of heaven is within, it also means the doors to such is within. So when Jesus talks about opening doors and having keys to them etc, he is talking about opening doors in the persons perception.
You really have to understand the difference between consciousness/soul and creation to understand these things IMO. I know I certainly couldn't make any sense of such things until I came to that understanding.
What is born of flesh is flesh, and what is born of spirit is spirit. One must know and understand this before any real sense can be made of such things, and how such things like visions are possible.
Again, I am speaking from my own experiences as before I understood that, nothing Jesus said made sense to me, outside being an obviously good way to act. But once that understanding was clear, then I read the words of Jesus and seen a much much much deeper meaning on understanding in the same exact words.
That you consider such to be "just the mind" only goes to prove to me that you see yourself as flesh, rather than spirit. As you are constantly looking towards things which affect flesh, rather than spirit.
[edit on 26-6-2009 by badmedia]
Numbers 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
It goes on to say moses is different because he is faithful in all his houses etc.
The most potent hallucinogenic drug known to man is produced naturally by the brain. It is what causes dreams, and affects what is called the minds eye.
As the kingdom of heaven is within, it also means the doors to such is within. So when Jesus talks about opening doors and having keys to them etc, he is talking about opening doors in the persons perception.
You really have to understand the difference between consciousness/soul and creation to understand these things IMO. I know I certainly couldn't make any sense of such things until I came to that understanding.
What is born of flesh is flesh, and what is born of spirit is spirit. One must know and understand this before any real sense can be made of such things, and how such things like visions are possible.
Again, I am speaking from my own experiences as before I understood that, nothing Jesus said made sense to me, outside being an obviously good way to act. But once that understanding was clear, then I read the words of Jesus and seen a much much much deeper meaning on understanding in the same exact words.
That you consider such to be "just the mind" only goes to prove to me that you see yourself as flesh, rather than spirit. As you are constantly looking towards things which affect flesh, rather than spirit.
[edit on 26-6-2009 by badmedia]
Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by Imago Dei
Numbers 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
It goes on to say moses is different because he is faithful in all his houses etc.
The most potent hallucinogenic drug known to man is produced naturally by the brain. It is what causes dreams, and affects what is called the minds eye.
As the kingdom of heaven is within, it also means the doors to such is within. So when Jesus talks about opening doors and having keys to them etc, he is talking about opening doors in the persons perception.
You really have to understand the difference between consciousness/soul and creation to understand these things IMO. I know I certainly couldn't make any sense of such things until I came to that understanding.
What is born of flesh is flesh, and what is born of spirit is spirit. One must know and understand this before any real sense can be made of such things, and how such things like visions are possible.
Again, I am speaking from my own experiences as before I understood that, nothing Jesus said made sense to me, outside being an obviously good way to act. But once that understanding was clear, then I read the words of Jesus and seen a much much much deeper meaning on understanding in the same exact words.
That you consider such to be "just the mind" only goes to prove to me that you see yourself as flesh, rather than spirit. As you are constantly looking towards things which affect flesh, rather than spirit.
[edit on 26-6-2009 by badmedia]
Do you care to share exactly what it was you realised or learned so that you have a much much much better understanding of what Jesus was saying, as you know he said a lot, what scriptures do you refer too.
I know I am flesh and spirit? I also know that the bible said in the last days God will power his spirit out upon men and we will dream dreams and see visions. Twenty two years ago I had a dream when I was searching for the truth, I was reading Bhagavad-Gita at the time , I fell
asleep and Jesus or that's who I believed it to be came to me in a dream, he was building a house and was dressed as a carpenter with builders tool holster around his waste, but it was only a dream. Do you take umbridge at something I have said??
I also believe that drugs can open peoples minds to perhaps have a glimpse into the spirit world which I stated in a previous post on this thread, I have experinced this, I have also had amazing experiences through meditation and I once had an out of body experience whilst practising martial arts, so I dont really know what your on about to be honest with you. I am a born again believer in Christ which opened my spirtual eyes so that I can see in 1991. Im not boasting only sharing in whom I believe. Who do you say Jesus is?
There will be no more prophets by the way, that is clear in the bible, but there will be many false prophets that will come in Jesus name.
[edit on 26-6-2009 by Imago Dei]
Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Hello to all,
I also, dare say, that I told my family at the begingin of June that according to the stars I felt a king might die in June (this was the first time I ever made a direct thoughts twards reading stars).
Peace
[edit on 6-10-2008 by LeoVirgo]
gonna take the time to read the whole thread after stumbling about that.
you were right...the KING of Pop died in june...R.i.P. MJ
[edit on 26-6-2009 by LaMano]
Originally posted by Imago Dei
Do you care to share exactly what it was you realised or learned so that you have a much much much better understanding of what Jesus was saying, as yo now he said a lot, what scriptures do you refer too.
I know I am flesh and spirit? I also know that the bible said in the last days God will power his spirit out upon men and we will dream dreams and see visions. Twenty two years ago I had a dream when I was searching for the truth, I was reading bhadavad gitta, I feel as sleep and Jesus or thats who I believed it to be came to me in a dream, he was building a house and was dressed as a carpenter with builders tool holster around his waste, but I am not claiming it be a divine revelation on the internet as gospel. Do you take umbridge at something I have said??
I also believe that drugs can open people minds to perhaps have a glimpse into the spirit world which I stated in a previous post on this thread, so I dont really know what your on about to be honest with you. I am a born again believer in Christ and which opned my spirtual eyes so that I can see in 1991. Im not boasting only sharing in whom I believe. Who do you say Jesus is?
There will be no more prophets by the way, that is clear in the bible, but there will be many false prophets that will come in Jesus name.
There is only 1 true teacher, and I am not it. The church is not it, and the bible is not it either. All of these things, including me, can only give as the world gives. And that is not how the father gives. If you should happen to gain any understanding based on my words, then it would be the father within me speaking through me, rather than me. And if you recognize it, then you likely already know the father.
Should I be a "prophet" or anyone of importance to the world, I certainly haven't been told that, or feel that I am. I'm certainly not trying to be an authority, I was shown not to make myself into anykind of authority. That includes preacher, father, pope, president or whatever. There is only 1 true teacher and none of those authorities are it.
When I had my experience and gained understanding, I was shown that the literal is not important. The literal is simply a single expression of an understanding. It is the understanding itself that is important, not the literal.
I generally use math to explain this, as we can all see the difference between understanding math and repeating mathematically equations.
Which of the following math statements are true?
1+1=2
4-5=1
4-5 = 5
1+4=9
8+8 = 16
Now tell me, how were you able to tell which of those were true? Because you understand math correct? Now, if someone just accepts some equations as true because the bible says that, and they can repeat that 1+1=2 is true, they can repeat 4-5 =1 is true and so on, they still do not actually understand. Anyone can remember 1+1=2, but the point is to understand it. Why? Because only if you understand it are you actually able to use it in your daily life. Memorizing 1+1=2 is true doesn't help you count, only the understanding does.
But we in this world can not give understanding directly. We can only express that understanding. I can only say 1+1=2, and then show you what I mean and then you can understand. Of course, you really already understood how to add in a sense, even a baby can point out that 2 is greater than 1. So we are simply tying that understanding(provided by and a function of the father) to the symbols as a way of furthering things for this world.
That understanding will come directly from the father. It is only because the father is within you to begin with that you can even have understanding to begin with. Without the father being in you, then you would be like a robot, or AI. No soul, no understanding, no free will, just following out predetermined logic based on the incoming factors(world/environment).
The father isn't going to just tell you 1+1=2. 1+1=2 is how the world gives. The father will simply give you the understanding itself, which the world itself can not do. The understanding is more like an A+B=C. And of course, that is in itself just an expression of the understanding I am assuming you already have.
So I can express my understandings, but I'm sorry to say I can not give them to you directly. Only the true teacher can do that, and only when one is ready and asks for it. I find that Jesus is an example and expression of what I understand.
I myself came to that understanding by looking for the truth, the light and the way. I wasn't looking "for Jesus". I looked at the world in dismay. I wanted to know the truth about things, and I was trying to see how people could live in peace without killing and enslaving each other. I was looking for the path of course, although I didn't realize it at the time. Then I had my vision, the first words out of my mouth after were - I am god and I am arguing with myself. Meaning, I for the first time in my life recognized the father within me and knew exactly what that was. I also recognized it was not just in me, but in others as well(thus why they are sins against god).
The path is not that hard to understand. All one needs to do is ask the right questions and be honest(wisdom). How would people need to act in order to have a peaceful society? As you answer them, you will see the path open up before you, and then to walk that path you need to be the change you see. And you will notice that is exactly what Jesus did.
But I find christianity to be the anti-Christ religion. It is not of the understanding of Jesus. It is the worship of the literal and acceptance of the literal.
Check out Psalm 82. The entire chapter is good and has other meaning that is good, but I am going to point something out. When you accept, then you will not understand. If you accept 1+1=2, then you will not understand.
2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
...
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
I'm going to put up proverbs 8 now. Giving you a crash course thing here now. Once again the entire chapter is good, but I'm going to highlight for space.
Proverbs 8
8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
12I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
13The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
15By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
16By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
18Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
19My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
So what is it saying? If you seek him, you will find him early and he will fill your treasures - with understanding and wisdom.
Where I see Jesus doing all that I was shown to do, I see Jesus talking in parables to give understanding, I see the exact opposite in Paul. In Paul I see all that I was told not to do. I see Paul making himself into an authority, and teaching people to accept. And what does it mean when people accept? It means they will not understand. And understanding is the true treasure and riches. This is also why an authority needs to be created. Because people will accept the authority. I can go talk to a devout Christian today, and they will reject me simply because I am not what they deem an authority. And Atheists are no different. They simply accept other authorities.
I do not know Jesus. But I do recognize the father within him. I recognize the understanding and truth of the father. I recognize that he is an example of how to follow those things. I do not even care if Jesus is real or not. If it is proven he is not real and it's just a story, then I know that whoever wrote the story knew the father in order to write such things. Although I personally don't see what the big deal is, I don't find it very hard to believe that someone like Jesus lived.
I will continue on in another post.
Christianity is a religion based on sacrifice. "Go learn what this means, I desire mercy, not sacrifice". It is based on the sacrifice of truth,
so that the lie of this world may live. Afterall, the bible specifically states that the reason they conspired against him in the first place is
because he threatened their power and authority - which was the lie.
Christians find salvation in his death, I find it is in his life example and path, and by following them. Simply accepting "Jesus" does not give someone the understanding needed in order to apply the things to their lives, just as accepting 1+1=2 doesn't help someone in counting things. As they do not understand, they walk on in darkness.
What Christianity basically says is that Jesus did these things so you do not have too. As people have accepted rather than gaining understanding, they can be manipulated into walking a path of death and destruction. Because they are doing things in the name "of", so it must be right. But if we look at their fruits, then we can see they are actually walking on the path of death and destruction. I'll refer you to Matthew 7.
You mention false prophets, so I included that back. What amazes me is many people do not consider Paul in this category. He came after Jesus, and people generally accept him over Jesus. He goes on through political power and appeal - in a book even named after that power "Romans" to create a religion in the name of Christ, and that religion then proceeds to kill, persecute, torture and enslave all those who do not go along. And yet, at the same time, Jesus says you can not serve 2 masters. He says do not make authorities of yourself. He says those who truly believe will be the ones persecuted, not those who do the persecution. He scolds the pharisees because they will travel seas for a single convert, and here we have this religion doing exactly that.
If it was simply about accepting an idol, then why does Jesus not tell the rich man to just believe in him? He tells the rich man to walk the path - which was a price the man knew he wouldn't pay. But according to the church and Paul, all this rich man needs to do is believe and get his "free gift". What do we need to do? Just accept it.
Christians look at all the other religions as being the "false" one, but they do not look at their own.
Not that anyone who calls themselves a Christian is bad automatically or anything. People are individuals only responsible for themselves, so I do not want to group everyone up. If I can find understanding without having the bible, I'm sure others can find understanding while having the bible. I'd just say it is in spite of, rather than because of. Those who come to understand will likely be those who question things, rather than blindly accepting them as true "because the bible says so". I'm more talking about the structure, authority claimed, and general message of the religion compared to what Jesus actually says.
And even with Paul, maybe he didn't write those things, anyone could attribute them to him. And the writings could have come at a time before he had real understanding and was trying to make sense of things. I'd be pretty horrified if my writings got treated in such a manner honestly. Especially if you took my writings from a few years ago, before I had understanding.
As well, it's not all doom and gloom either. All Christians aren't "going to hell". They are simply deceived, and they also aren't the only ones. All those who have simply accepted rather than understanding are deceived. You only need to deceive the good people. Thus, those who are deceived are simply poor in spirit, having not yet known the truth. When the truth comes to them, then they will have understanding and they will do the right thing. The "wicked" are those who know the truth, but actively work against and keeping it away from others. They already know the truth, so they "blasphemy the holy spirit".
Revelation and Apocalypse simple means "unveiling" of the truth. Things are getting so in your face that they get to where they are no longer ignorable. Like it or not, the bad things that are happening are the things that will wake people up. I disagree with GWB, but I'd have to thank him because it was his obviousness that made me question things.
Christians find salvation in his death, I find it is in his life example and path, and by following them. Simply accepting "Jesus" does not give someone the understanding needed in order to apply the things to their lives, just as accepting 1+1=2 doesn't help someone in counting things. As they do not understand, they walk on in darkness.
What Christianity basically says is that Jesus did these things so you do not have too. As people have accepted rather than gaining understanding, they can be manipulated into walking a path of death and destruction. Because they are doing things in the name "of", so it must be right. But if we look at their fruits, then we can see they are actually walking on the path of death and destruction. I'll refer you to Matthew 7.
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
You mention false prophets, so I included that back. What amazes me is many people do not consider Paul in this category. He came after Jesus, and people generally accept him over Jesus. He goes on through political power and appeal - in a book even named after that power "Romans" to create a religion in the name of Christ, and that religion then proceeds to kill, persecute, torture and enslave all those who do not go along. And yet, at the same time, Jesus says you can not serve 2 masters. He says do not make authorities of yourself. He says those who truly believe will be the ones persecuted, not those who do the persecution. He scolds the pharisees because they will travel seas for a single convert, and here we have this religion doing exactly that.
If it was simply about accepting an idol, then why does Jesus not tell the rich man to just believe in him? He tells the rich man to walk the path - which was a price the man knew he wouldn't pay. But according to the church and Paul, all this rich man needs to do is believe and get his "free gift". What do we need to do? Just accept it.
Christians look at all the other religions as being the "false" one, but they do not look at their own.
Not that anyone who calls themselves a Christian is bad automatically or anything. People are individuals only responsible for themselves, so I do not want to group everyone up. If I can find understanding without having the bible, I'm sure others can find understanding while having the bible. I'd just say it is in spite of, rather than because of. Those who come to understand will likely be those who question things, rather than blindly accepting them as true "because the bible says so". I'm more talking about the structure, authority claimed, and general message of the religion compared to what Jesus actually says.
And even with Paul, maybe he didn't write those things, anyone could attribute them to him. And the writings could have come at a time before he had real understanding and was trying to make sense of things. I'd be pretty horrified if my writings got treated in such a manner honestly. Especially if you took my writings from a few years ago, before I had understanding.
As well, it's not all doom and gloom either. All Christians aren't "going to hell". They are simply deceived, and they also aren't the only ones. All those who have simply accepted rather than understanding are deceived. You only need to deceive the good people. Thus, those who are deceived are simply poor in spirit, having not yet known the truth. When the truth comes to them, then they will have understanding and they will do the right thing. The "wicked" are those who know the truth, but actively work against and keeping it away from others. They already know the truth, so they "blasphemy the holy spirit".
Revelation and Apocalypse simple means "unveiling" of the truth. Things are getting so in your face that they get to where they are no longer ignorable. Like it or not, the bad things that are happening are the things that will wake people up. I disagree with GWB, but I'd have to thank him because it was his obviousness that made me question things.
I find it interesting that you are quoting scriptiure, when it is obvious that you believe what you wan't to believe and not what the bible says. The
bible belongs to those who believe it and know what it means, not to people who want to cherry pick scripture twist and fire at people who know what
it means. Satan quoted scripture to Jesus and he just quoted it right back at him. Remember that the next time you want to fire scripturres at me in
that condecending accusatory tone of yours.
Clearly you dont know Jesus, you admitt that and yet you state the father is in you. The father of lies, yes. The bible states otherwise, sadly the scripture has not led you to a saving faith in The Lord Jesus Christ yet, which is what the whole purpose of the word of God is about. Im not talking church or even what you percieve Christianity to mean either. Im talking the bible which you so liberally use.
Jesus siad "who do you say that I am?" The answer to that question divides all of humanity in twain. Your answer and reasoning shows me all I need to know, which is why I asked, I didnt need 4000 plus words with scripture scattered through out from you to know it either.
Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
You say, and I quote "I do not know Jesus. But I do recognize the father within him"
In that case you are on the path to destruction. If you do not know Him, you do not know God, and He doesnt know you, and he will tell so on Judgment day, if you do not repent and bend your knee and confess your sins and profess with your lips that Jesus Christ is Lord. (again, all bible, which as I said, is written only to lead you to the Father) If you reject this message, you are rejecting the Holy Spirit, which is the only unforgiveable sin.
No one comes unto the father but through Christ and the father does not enter into you via the Holy Spirit until you receive Christ.
Jesus is not a role model for you to mimic with the delusion that you will become like God, that's the lie form the serpent in the garden.
In the beginning was the word, the word was with God and the word was God. Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh to save your soul.
Now thats what the bible states clearly, so please dont mix your personal experiences and try to validate them with scripture, because anyone who knows what is written there in knows the score.
So go read the bible and understand what it means. Start with the gospel of John. It's the wonderful councillor (the Holy Spirit) that will give you understanding, which you will not get until you receive the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ.
"For the things of God or spiritually descerned a natural man can not understand them, they are foolishness to him" Which clearly is all that your coming out with.
[edit on 26-6-2009 by Imago Dei]
Clearly you dont know Jesus, you admitt that and yet you state the father is in you. The father of lies, yes. The bible states otherwise, sadly the scripture has not led you to a saving faith in The Lord Jesus Christ yet, which is what the whole purpose of the word of God is about. Im not talking church or even what you percieve Christianity to mean either. Im talking the bible which you so liberally use.
Jesus siad "who do you say that I am?" The answer to that question divides all of humanity in twain. Your answer and reasoning shows me all I need to know, which is why I asked, I didnt need 4000 plus words with scripture scattered through out from you to know it either.
Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
You say, and I quote "I do not know Jesus. But I do recognize the father within him"
In that case you are on the path to destruction. If you do not know Him, you do not know God, and He doesnt know you, and he will tell so on Judgment day, if you do not repent and bend your knee and confess your sins and profess with your lips that Jesus Christ is Lord. (again, all bible, which as I said, is written only to lead you to the Father) If you reject this message, you are rejecting the Holy Spirit, which is the only unforgiveable sin.
No one comes unto the father but through Christ and the father does not enter into you via the Holy Spirit until you receive Christ.
Jesus is not a role model for you to mimic with the delusion that you will become like God, that's the lie form the serpent in the garden.
In the beginning was the word, the word was with God and the word was God. Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh to save your soul.
Now thats what the bible states clearly, so please dont mix your personal experiences and try to validate them with scripture, because anyone who knows what is written there in knows the score.
So go read the bible and understand what it means. Start with the gospel of John. It's the wonderful councillor (the Holy Spirit) that will give you understanding, which you will not get until you receive the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ.
"For the things of God or spiritually descerned a natural man can not understand them, they are foolishness to him" Which clearly is all that your coming out with.
[edit on 26-6-2009 by Imago Dei]
reply to post by Imago Dei
Jesus is - the truth, the way and the light. It is only by those things that one can come by the father.
Apart from that, you are simply giving me church dogma.
Are you calling Jesus a liar?
As well, the bible is not the word of god. If it is divinely inspired, then the word those who wrote it heard is the actual word of god. It is not the authority, but it has it's place.
If we build a house, it has a foundation and a roof. If you put the foundation above the roof, then the house will fall. That doesn't mean the foundation and roof are the problems, it's that they were not put in their proper places that is the problem.
I can look at the man who puts his foundation above his roof and see his error, but that doesn't mean I am not allowed to use those same parts myself. The all or nothing position is dumb. I know what is true and what is not in the same way I know what the true math statements were.
But go ahead and take the "easy way". I'm sure it's alot easier and many more people would love their free gift instead of having to actually walk the path themselves.
Answer me this one question. Which path is more narrow? Actually having to follow and walk the path of Jesus, or merely having to believe he died for your sins and you can do whatever you want and be ok? Yeah, I can't imagine why people accepted Paul over Jesus.
Jesus is - the truth, the way and the light. It is only by those things that one can come by the father.
Apart from that, you are simply giving me church dogma.
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Are you calling Jesus a liar?
As well, the bible is not the word of god. If it is divinely inspired, then the word those who wrote it heard is the actual word of god. It is not the authority, but it has it's place.
If we build a house, it has a foundation and a roof. If you put the foundation above the roof, then the house will fall. That doesn't mean the foundation and roof are the problems, it's that they were not put in their proper places that is the problem.
I can look at the man who puts his foundation above his roof and see his error, but that doesn't mean I am not allowed to use those same parts myself. The all or nothing position is dumb. I know what is true and what is not in the same way I know what the true math statements were.
But go ahead and take the "easy way". I'm sure it's alot easier and many more people would love their free gift instead of having to actually walk the path themselves.
Answer me this one question. Which path is more narrow? Actually having to follow and walk the path of Jesus, or merely having to believe he died for your sins and you can do whatever you want and be ok? Yeah, I can't imagine why people accepted Paul over Jesus.
Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by Imago Dei
Jesus is - the truth, the way and the light. It is only by those things that one can come by the father.
Apart from that, you are simply giving me church dogma.
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Are you calling Jesus a liar?
As well, the bible is not the word of god. If it is divinely inspired, then the word those who wrote it heard is the actual word of god. It is not the authority, but it has it's place.
If we build a house, it has a foundation and a roof. If you put the foundation above the roof, then the house will fall. That doesn't mean the foundation and roof are the problems, it's that they were not put in their proper places that is the problem.
I can look at the man who puts his foundation above his roof and see his error, but that doesn't mean I am not allowed to use those same parts myself. The all or nothing position is dumb. I know what is true and what is not in the same way I know what the true math statements were.
But go ahead and take the "easy way". I'm sure it's alot easier and many more people would love their free gift instead of having to actually walk the path themselves.
Answer me this one question. Which path is more narrow? Actually having to follow and walk the path of Jesus, or merely having to believe he died for your sins and you can do whatever you want and be ok? Yeah, I can't imagine why people accepted Paul over Jesus.
No. I'm calling you a liar.
reply to post by badmedia
All that I truly am is of the father, all I truly ever will be is of the father. My flesh is not me, my arm is not me, my body is not me. All that is me is spirit/soul/consciousness and the only way I have those is by the father.
Are you aware that you are aware? Do you understand how special and divine it is for you to even be an observer? Do you understand that in the end, there is only a single observer/consciousness that filled all of creation?
If you had been born of spirit, then you would know these things yourself, and you would understand the father/son relationship.
And I noticed you mentioned the serpent. But guess what? God repeats what the serpent said in the same chapter.
Like it or not, you've already eaten from the tree. To know both good and evil. The only way back now is to gain the wisdom and choose the right path, which Jesus was kind enough to lay out for you.
In the beginning there was the word. What is the word? The word is logic. Logic that created the universe. Logic that created the laws of physics and so forth. All is bound by logic, or the word.
This is true of all programs. When I write a program, I write words in a logical manner, and that logic creates the structure of the program. Open up a video game, and it's a world created by a word/logic.
If you create a program, it does not come to life until there is an observer to view it. It has no free will, as it only follows the logic given to it. It doesn't feel, it doesn't see, it doesn't understand. It just follows the patterns. It is not until a consciousness fills the program, that it comes to life, and only that consciousness behind it has free will.
And this is expressed in genesis. The word creates creation, and then the spirit of god fills that creation and brings it to life.
Without that consciousness within us, we could not understand, observe or anything. If the father is not in us, then we are nothing more than AI/robots. If you know what it means to "be", then you are of the father and the father is within you. Thus why the sins are things you do to other people, but they are sins against god. As you have committed a sin against the father that is within them.
Are you the thinker, or are you the thought? I think, therefore I am. If you think, then you are of the father. The deception of this world is to simply hide that fact from people. To make them think they are of this world and only of the flesh. As they think they are only of the flesh, then they try to save that flesh through sin and fear of losing it. At which point, those who try to save themselves actually condemn themselves, just as Jesus says.
It is also said you are hated because you are not of this world. What does that mean? A rocket is of this world. It can be controlled because it is based on action and reaction. Give it the appropriate action, and it will react in a certain way. Thus, we gain control/power over it. As you are not really the flesh, and as you have the father within you, then you have free will. As you have free will, then you have choice and you are not so easily controllable by those seeking power. If the rocket had choice, who knows where it would end up. But it doesn't.
And so those of power simply try to dumb people down as I said before. Make them fear for their lives(action) to get the reaction from the people they want. Thus, to be like this world. What does it mean to sell your soul? To give your free will away and become a puppet, in exchange for security/luxury etc. To serve another's will.
The father will never take your will. NEVER. It is he within you that gives it in the first place, thus why the people are the authority. And because the people are the authority(fact), that is why they must be deceived. If you try to give your will to the father, he will refuse it. Instead, he will fill your treasures, give you understanding and based on that understanding you will do his will. As that is "his will" to begin with. If you love something, you set it free. If it loves you, it comes back. As you have free will, you are obviously loved. Now it's just a matter of coming back - of which Jesus shows the "path".
When adam and eve eat from that apple, subconsciously they are agreeing to much much more. I'll give you an example.
If you agree to play a game, I'll use poker as an example. When you agree to play a game, you are agreeing to the rules/requirements of that game. When you agree to play poker, subconsciously you are giving away your free will. You have to in order to have the experience of the game. Nothing stops you from physically looking at the cards, but if everyone could see all the cards, then the game itself could not happen. So we give away our free will and agree to become "ignorant" in order to have the experience. The same is true in this life.
Part of free will is the ability to give it away, and that is what was played on by the serpent, and that is what is played on today.
All that I truly am is of the father, all I truly ever will be is of the father. My flesh is not me, my arm is not me, my body is not me. All that is me is spirit/soul/consciousness and the only way I have those is by the father.
Are you aware that you are aware? Do you understand how special and divine it is for you to even be an observer? Do you understand that in the end, there is only a single observer/consciousness that filled all of creation?
If you had been born of spirit, then you would know these things yourself, and you would understand the father/son relationship.
And I noticed you mentioned the serpent. But guess what? God repeats what the serpent said in the same chapter.
Genesis 2:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Like it or not, you've already eaten from the tree. To know both good and evil. The only way back now is to gain the wisdom and choose the right path, which Jesus was kind enough to lay out for you.
In the beginning there was the word. What is the word? The word is logic. Logic that created the universe. Logic that created the laws of physics and so forth. All is bound by logic, or the word.
This is true of all programs. When I write a program, I write words in a logical manner, and that logic creates the structure of the program. Open up a video game, and it's a world created by a word/logic.
If you create a program, it does not come to life until there is an observer to view it. It has no free will, as it only follows the logic given to it. It doesn't feel, it doesn't see, it doesn't understand. It just follows the patterns. It is not until a consciousness fills the program, that it comes to life, and only that consciousness behind it has free will.
And this is expressed in genesis. The word creates creation, and then the spirit of god fills that creation and brings it to life.
Without that consciousness within us, we could not understand, observe or anything. If the father is not in us, then we are nothing more than AI/robots. If you know what it means to "be", then you are of the father and the father is within you. Thus why the sins are things you do to other people, but they are sins against god. As you have committed a sin against the father that is within them.
Are you the thinker, or are you the thought? I think, therefore I am. If you think, then you are of the father. The deception of this world is to simply hide that fact from people. To make them think they are of this world and only of the flesh. As they think they are only of the flesh, then they try to save that flesh through sin and fear of losing it. At which point, those who try to save themselves actually condemn themselves, just as Jesus says.
It is also said you are hated because you are not of this world. What does that mean? A rocket is of this world. It can be controlled because it is based on action and reaction. Give it the appropriate action, and it will react in a certain way. Thus, we gain control/power over it. As you are not really the flesh, and as you have the father within you, then you have free will. As you have free will, then you have choice and you are not so easily controllable by those seeking power. If the rocket had choice, who knows where it would end up. But it doesn't.
And so those of power simply try to dumb people down as I said before. Make them fear for their lives(action) to get the reaction from the people they want. Thus, to be like this world. What does it mean to sell your soul? To give your free will away and become a puppet, in exchange for security/luxury etc. To serve another's will.
The father will never take your will. NEVER. It is he within you that gives it in the first place, thus why the people are the authority. And because the people are the authority(fact), that is why they must be deceived. If you try to give your will to the father, he will refuse it. Instead, he will fill your treasures, give you understanding and based on that understanding you will do his will. As that is "his will" to begin with. If you love something, you set it free. If it loves you, it comes back. As you have free will, you are obviously loved. Now it's just a matter of coming back - of which Jesus shows the "path".
When adam and eve eat from that apple, subconsciously they are agreeing to much much more. I'll give you an example.
If you agree to play a game, I'll use poker as an example. When you agree to play a game, you are agreeing to the rules/requirements of that game. When you agree to play poker, subconsciously you are giving away your free will. You have to in order to have the experience of the game. Nothing stops you from physically looking at the cards, but if everyone could see all the cards, then the game itself could not happen. So we give away our free will and agree to become "ignorant" in order to have the experience. The same is true in this life.
Part of free will is the ability to give it away, and that is what was played on by the serpent, and that is what is played on today.
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Democratic Rep. Henry Cuellar and wife indicted on federal bribery charges
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SEC shuts down Trump Media auditor, BF Borgers, over fraud
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Poll - Catholic Support Swings to Trump By Significant Margin
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An AI-controlled fighter jet took the Air Force leader for a historic ride
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UN Estimates Rebuilding Gaza Will Cost Up To 40 Billion Dollars
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