If God Is Omnipotent, Than There Is No Freewill

The Jesus figure, the Moses figure, resurrection, crucifixion, 12 apostles, Christmas. Oh, and the ten commandments were stolen directly from the ancient Egyptians.

You stating that this topic weak minded is what angers me the most, because I can deal with you having faith. I can even keep my mouth shut up to the point of you stating your beliefs as fact, and asserting that everybody with a different view is wrong. But when you make the completely ignorant statement of the topic being weak minded when the greatest philosophers, some of the greatest minds, in the history of man, have debated this topic for thousands of years... I think you should take a time out.

Go ahead, sit in the corner and think about what you have said and done. Nobody is going to take your post seriously when you make asinine comments, state beliefs as fact when said beliefs are neither observable or testable, and declare that those who challenge your beliefs or thoughts are weak minded.

You, in all honesty, are the absolute, most ignorant poster I have encountered on this website. I think that you should seriously consider the impact of the way you present yourself to the world when you communicate with others.

Figure it out.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Good post. I would go a step further and suggest that the "guy" mentioned in the Bible is clearly NOT God since (for one example) he repented of flooding the Earth and is clearly capable of sinning (and repenting) he cannot be omnipotent or omniscient. He must therefore be an imposter.

How could one steal "the identity" of a god? With technology that clearly wasn't available to humans at the time...

That rules out God and any human. So what's left?

what is this connection that everyone keeps making between god and religion? how closed-minded it is to identify the creator of EVERYTHING male female muslim jew christian buddhist atheist with anyone over the other. you know what this sort of thinking creates? one word: separation. where in reality, there is none. thank quantum physics for proof of that. they have also proven that this idea that we are all separated from one another and not a summed up reality, entangled, making up a bigger picture, is the most destructive form of thinking today. where does this separation come from? this belief that my religion or belief is right and ther rest of the worlds thousands of mono/polytheistic beliefs are wrong? one word: ego. has anyone ever considered that maybe every religion is right because every religion "IS"?

and a major factor being left out on the fact that the creator is omnipotent, is that time is an illusion. einstein said it, QM proved it. in my belief (which is not to say i am correct because i am my own, and my own belief) the answer is right in front of you and you arent looking at it, you are just attemptimg to prove/disprove god or religion or whatever it may be. everything is god. to say something isnt is to say it is void of god and i think we can all agree on that. though i should state even though everything is bound within this "god consciousness", it is not to say everything has a consciousness. we have a free will. god saw it and knew it because, he didnt see it and didnt know it. that is to say there is a past. which is an illusion. everything is happening simultaneously and we just experience it in this linear form. this time-table realm. but my free will is bound. for instance i cant up n decide to run for president. but i can go get a gun from my dads room and blow my brains out. to say blowing my brains out is a wrong o right move is to identify with the act. and if we all serve a different purpose then there is no right and wrong. the muslim extremist is not wrong because he is doing what he believes.

ugh my ADD haha! GOD i love it. i hope yall start to see god outside of religion and break your walls of separation and difference. for if i were to rid you all of your bibles pastors rabbis churches books of guidance and any leader or superior, where would your god be? YOU would be lost. like jesus said, the kingdom of heaven is within. on that note i love all of you more than myself and you are serving nto just a great, but the ULTIMATE purpose. the mayans had it right so many years ago. "IN LAK'ECH ALA K'IN".

if anyone wants to discuss more pleees feel free

God knows you better than you know yourself, that doesn't mean you don't have free will. Ask a child you know that likes junk food if he wants health food or junk food. You already know his answer before you even ask the question, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have free will, he still chose didn't he

Originally posted by Xanthur
reply to post by Titen-Sxull

 

Good post. I would go a step further and suggest that the "guy" mentioned in the Bible is clearly NOT God since (for one example) he repented of flooding the Earth and is clearly capable of sinning (and repenting) he cannot be omnipotent or omniscient. He must therefore be an imposter.

Look into the meaning of the word repent, as it is written in the Hebrew.

Originally posted by doctorex
God knows you better than you know yourself, that doesn't mean you don't have free will. Ask a child you know that likes junk food if he wants health food or junk food. You already know his answer before you even ask the question, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have free will, he still chose didn't he

Yes I already know that the child will pick the junk food. Do I know everything he will choose to do in his life???. When I was born did I know I was going to have a son when I did???. When I was born did I know how my son was going to die??? No, do you know why??? because I'm not omniscient... And you what, that example that you used would never work, because there is always the chance that my son would in fact pick the healthy food. If in fact he picked the healthy food, then I would have been wrong. So to use that argument to defend God would mean you think God CAN be wrong every now, and then. But that's not what christian doctrine states, christian doctrine says God is all knowing, and cannot be wrong. With that kind of argument you're admitting that there is always the chance that God can be wrong...

You have hit one of the biggest problems on the head Doctorex.There are many translations in the bible that are not correct or are taken out of context.I have so much more to learn but I have found that if you do just a little research you will find that there are many words that were not translated correctly or just the best they could at the time.Before any of you give up completly on God and Yeshua go and find some sites of the old hebrew texts that have been translated by todays scholars.Also try and open up your mind and separate the word of God from any organized religion.If some of you have really read and studied the NT alone you would see that Jesus was very upset and came down very hard on the organized religous leaders of his day and those of the days before him.

One question for all who dont believe.Why spend so much of your superior brain power trying to convince all us "brain washed ignorant" people that God doesnt exist?Why if you dont believe in God and Jesus would you waste so much of your time and energy trying to disprove God and Jesus?
Do you really care so much about us that you want to save us from belief in what we know and believe is the word of God and that of Jesus?How many times have you actually been accosted by a Christian telling you that you are going to hell if you dont believe and if you have can you not just take your anger out on that individual instead of trying to trash all who are Christian?

In my mind " which I am positive you non-believers will say is weak" God is omnipotent and gave us freewill.How do I know you ask? I believe the bible is the word of God.If you dont believe in the word of God or that he even exists or you cant wrap your mind around faith without physical proof that is your choice and I will not beat you down or judge you for your belief because it is not my place to judge any one.

Thanks OP , this thread got me to researching and studying a little more than I normally do and has done me a great service as it has made my faith even stronger and has brought many things I have learned to light.

In the name of Jesus I hope God may bless you with wisdom, peace and faith.

One question for all who dont believe.Why spend so much of your superior brain power trying to convince all us "brain washed ignorant" people that God doesnt exist?Why if you dont believe in God and Jesus would you waste so much of your time and energy trying to disprove God and Jesus?
Do you really care so much about us that you want to save us from belief in what we know and believe is the word of God and that of Jesus?How many times have you actually been accosted by a Christian telling you that you are going to hell if you dont believe and if you have can you not just take your anger out on that individual instead of trying to trash all who are Christian?

In my mind " which I am positive you non-believers will say is weak" God is omnipotent and gave us freewill.How do I know you ask? I believe the bible is the word of God.If you dont believe in the word of God or that he even exists or you cant wrap your mind around faith without physical proof that is your choice and I will not beat you down or judge you for your belief because it is not my place to judge any one.

Thanks OP , this thread got me to researching and studying a little more than I normally do and has done me a great service as it has made my faith even stronger and has brought many things I have learned to light.

In the name of Jesus I hope God may bless you with wisdom, peace and faith.

Do you know why??? for one you "brain washed ignorant" people have never proved that God exists. The kicker is though, even though you haven't proved that God exists, 90 percent of the world believes in him, or a God, or Gods.

reply to post by AlexG141989


Imagine a Wrestling Match where some unknown climbs into the ring and says he is 'God the Omnipotent'.

Sound Crazy?

If we are to believe the Bible then it happened, except that the Almighty God didn't reveal his identity until he put Jacob's thigh out of joint - just read it in Genesis 32: verses 24 through to 30.

Why on earth would an omnipotent God even enter a Wrestling Ring and wrestle a puny human?

As evil as the Bible is, there are plenty of good laughs in it.

Christians Beware!!!

Your faith may look good to you, but just look below the surface. Look at the record of the Church and what the priests are up to today - even Satanic rituals (Toledo and Melbourne) killing people.
This joke circulating last year demonstrates how you are being fooled:
While walking down the street one day a US senator is tragically hit by a truck and dies.

His soul arrives in heaven and is met by St. Peter at the entrance.

"Welcome to heaven," says St. Peter. "Before you settle in, it seems there is a problem. We seldom see a high official around these parts, you see, so we're not sure what to do with you."

"No problem, just let me in," says the man.

"Well, I'd like to, but I have orders from higher up. What we'll do is have you spend one day in hell and one in heaven. Then you can choose where to spend eternity."

"Really, I've made up my mind. I want to be in heaven," says the senator.

"I'm sorry, but we have our rules."

And with that, St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to hell. The doors open and he finds himself in the middle of a green golf course. In the distance is a clubhouse and standing in front of it are all his friends and other politicians who had worked with him.

Everyone is very happy and in evening dress. They run to greet him, shake his hand, and reminisce about the good times they had while getting rich.

They play a friendly game of golf and then dine on lobster, caviar and champagne.

Also present is the devil, who really is a very friendly guy who has a good time dancing and telling jokes. They are having such a good time that before he realizes it, it is time to go.

Everyone gives him a hearty farewell and waves while the elevator rises...

The elevator goes up, up, up and the door reopens on heaven where St. Peter is waiting for him.

"Now it's time to visit heaven."

So, 24 hours pass with the senator joining a group of contented souls moving from cloud to cloud, playing the harp and singing. They have a good time and, before he realizes it, the 24 hours have gone by and St. Peter returns.

"Well, then, you've spent a day in hell and another in heaven.

Now choose your eternity."

The senator reflects for a minute, then he answers: "Well, I would never have said it before, I mean heaven has been delightful, but I think I would be better off in hell."

So St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to hell.

Now the doors of the elevator open and he's in the middle of a barren land covered with waste and garbage.

He sees all his friends, dressed in rags, picking up the trash and putting it in black bags as more trash falls from above.

The devil comes over to him and puts his arm around his shoulder.

"I don't understand," stammers the senator. "Yesterday I was here and there was a golf course and clubhouse, and we ate lobster and caviar, drank champagne, and danced and had a great time. Now there's just a wasteland full of garbage and my friends look miserable.

What happened?"

The devil looks at him, smiles and says, "Yesterday we were campaigning......

Today you voted."

Originally posted by AlexG141989

One question for all who dont believe.Why spend so much of your superior brain power trying to convince all us "brain washed ignorant" people that God doesnt exist?Why if you dont believe in God and Jesus would you waste so much of your time and energy trying to disprove God and Jesus?
Do you really care so much about us that you want to save us from belief in what we know and believe is the word of God and that of Jesus?How many times have you actually been accosted by a Christian telling you that you are going to hell if you dont believe and if you have can you not just take your anger out on that individual instead of trying to trash all who are Christian?

In my mind " which I am positive you non-believers will say is weak" God is omnipotent and gave us freewill.How do I know you ask? I believe the bible is the word of God.If you dont believe in the word of God or that he even exists or you cant wrap your mind around faith without physical proof that is your choice and I will not beat you down or judge you for your belief because it is not my place to judge any one.

Thanks OP , this thread got me to researching and studying a little more than I normally do and has done me a great service as it has made my faith even stronger and has brought many things I have learned to light.

In the name of Jesus I hope God may bless you with wisdom, peace and faith.

Do you know why??? for one you "brain washed ignorant" people have never proved that God exists. The kicker is though, even though you haven't proved that God exists, 90 percent of the world believes in him, or a God, or Gods.

I dont think I can prove to you God exists in a way you would understand.You need a proof with your hands , eyes , or ears.The only thing I have as proof is spiritual faith of the words of the bible which you choose not to believe in.All I can do is witness from my own belief.

Why does it bother you so much that 90% of the world believes in God?
Is it because you dont believe? Why cant you just believe the way you wish and not get so angry about others who dont have the same view as you?As of now here where I live we are not taking non-believers and putting them in jails or burning em at the stake or anything like that.Actually most of the Christians like myself are quite the pacifists and wish no harm on anyone.I will go a step farther and promise you that if we should ever meet I will not even bring up my religous beliefs if I see they offend you so much.Maybe just try to live and let live and dont allow others religous beliefs to get you so angry.Life is too short to waste on so much anger and that is true if you are a believer in God or not.

I dont think I can prove to you God exists in a way you would understand.You need a proof with your hands , eyes , or ears.The only thing I have as proof is spiritual faith of the words of the bible which you choose not to believe in.All I can do is witness from my own belief.

Why does it bother you so much that 90% of the world believes in God?
Is it because you dont believe? Why cant you just believe the way you wish and not get so angry about others who dont have the same view as you?As of now here where I live we are not taking non-believers and putting them in jails or burning em at the stake or anything like that.Actually most of the Christians like myself are quite the pacifists and wish no harm on anyone.I will go a step farther and promise you that if we should ever meet I will not even bring up my religous beliefs if I see they offend you so much.Maybe just try to live and let live and dont allow others religous beliefs to get you so angry.Life is too short to waste on so much anger and that is true if you are a believer in God or not.

I don't have anything against you or religious people, the non fundies anyway. My main problem is religion, I'm sorry but IMO religion is a disease that needs to be iradicated. Religion is used to justify murders, wars, and hate. I've already brought up the abortion clinic bombings, the murders of abortion doctors, the hate against gays, the murders of gays, wars, crazy people blowing themselves up in the name of Allah, all of that is caused by religion. Face it dude, I don't got a problem with you, but you cannot honestly tell me that if religion was not around, the world wouldn't be better than it is.

Originally posted by AlexG141989
If this God truly was omnipotent in the sense that he knows all, past, present, and, future, then humans do not have free will. In another debate I was involved in, a theist told me that God already knows whether I am going to heaven, or hell... If God already knows then how do I have freewill??? Every choice that I make, God knew that I was going to make that choice, so all along I was destined to make that "choice".

if God truly knew “all”, then there is nothing God should have to “do” because it is all written. God is in a sense, watching a movie. He knows all the scenes, and what will happen, how it began and how it will end. In the process of watching a movie that you already know all the scenes, and lines to. If you had to wonder, or hope a scene would turn out the way you like. If you got mad that the movie wasn’t good. Any of those emotions would clearly indicate that you haven’t watched the movie before, and therefore didn’t know what would happen… God clearly exhibits childish humans emotions such as those, which indicates he doesn’t know. If he truly knew all, past, present, and future, there would be nothing that he should have to be jealous of, or angry of, or want… You stating that God wants his children to go to heaven tells me he doesn’t know who really is going to heaven. God shouldn’t want anything like that if he was truly omnipotent, because he would already know who was going to heaven, and who wasn’t. God cannot want something, and be omnipotent.

This is one of the biggest unanswered questions that helped drive me away from all religions. The answer I came up with is that God doesn't make ANY garbage and wouldn't send ANYONE to "hell". We don't live long enough to achieve perfection.(the Bible said it took Enoch over 300 yrs before he was finally allowed to go to "Heaven")

We get punished for wrongs we do, but there might just be a "filtering of evils" we go through on this planet. The earth, the grave, is the filter, and we decide how many times we have to go through it to come up clean.
Kind of like "Groundhog's Day", perhaps.
That's not a fact, it's just a theory I'm playing with.

But I don't like the idea of "reincarnation" because it gives leaders and soldiers comfort when innocents are "casualties or war" because they will reason in their heads that it wouldn't have happened to them if they didn't somehow deserve it. The theory is definitely flawed for this one reason especially. Of course, even if these murderers didn't reason in reincarnation, they would probably reason that their are "real people" in the world, who they refer to as "sheep", and there are "fake people", who they refer to as "wolves".

I believe, with all of my heart, that we are ALL human beings, some are just at higher levels than others in their journey on this planet.

God doesn't make garbage.

Originally posted by AlexG141989

Originally posted by doctorex
God knows you better than you know yourself, that doesn't mean you don't have free will. Ask a child you know that likes junk food if he wants health food or junk food. You already know his answer before you even ask the question, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have free will, he still chose didn't he

Yes I already know that the child will pick the junk food. Do I know everything he will choose to do in his life???. When I was born did I know I was going to have a son when I did???. When I was born did I know how my son was going to die??? No, do you know why??? because I'm not omniscient... And you what, that example that you used would never work, because there is always the chance that my son would in fact pick the healthy food. If in fact he picked the healthy food, then I would have been wrong. So to use that argument to defend God would mean you think God CAN be wrong every now, and then. But that's not what christian doctrine states, christian doctrine says God is all knowing, and cannot be wrong. With that kind of argument you're admitting that there is always the chance that God can be wrong...

You are thinking of God in human terms, which he isn't. God knows you better than you know yourself, so if by chance one time you did choose the health food, God would not have been wrong, because he knew you were about to do that before you knew yourself, but that still doesn't mean you didn't choose. You also have to remember that God is beyond time and space (he created it), he isn't waiting for you to make your decision, he already knows your choice, but through your free will, you still made the decision.

reply to post by AlexG141989


Can you quote, where God says, "I know all things"? Why would Jesus say, "With God all things are possible" if everything was done? Why would God, "Regret" making Saul (meaning "asked") king of Yisrael if he knew it would bomb already? Why would "G-d" have to "remember Noah" or "Remember his loving kindness" if he is as you say. Why would he have to look for adam and eve after they sinned, if his "omniness" had known?

God says, "Lift a stone, and I am there..." Everyone keeps assuming that they are there own...but read again...."(you)lift a stone, I am there...(lifting the stone)... I say God is so humble and so everywhere, you do not see him when you look in the mirror or the person next to you.

Am I aware of how my brain makes my fingers type on the keyboard and each process of chemical to organic transaction that in compasses? I could learn it. I could become an expert. I am aware of it, just not wrapped up in it, as for me it is a lesser function, but to a quadriplegic a greater function . I think it and they do it, with no "all knowing" steps being performed, yet how many "fires" are set in motion just to make one finger move? Even the hairs on your head are counted...

Do you not think he allows himself to rest, after all he made Sabbath and Rested on it? What about sin, if he will forget it how is that all knowing?

Peace

reply to post by mmariebored


Enoch means Initiated, just thought that might help. Initiated took 300 years...peace

Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
reply to post by mmariebored

 

Enoch means Initiated, just thought that might help. Initiated took 300 years...peace

It says here it means "dedicated".

Enoch
Enwc Enoch
Pronunciation: en-oche'
Origin: of Hebrew origin 02585 Kwnx
Reference: TDNT - 2:556,237
PrtSpch:
In Greek: enwc 3
In NET: Enoch 3
In AV: Enoch 3
Count: 3
Definition: Enoch = "dedicated"

1) the son of Jared and father of Methuselah

see HEBREW for 02585

Chanowk
Kwnx Chanowk
Pronunciation: khan-oke'
Origin: from 02596, Greek 1802 Enwc
Reference:
PrtSpch:
In Hebrew: Kwnx 13, Kwnxl 1, Knxw 1, Kwnxw 1
In NET: Enoch 10, Hanoch 6
In AV: Enoch 9, Hanoch 5, Henoch 2
Count: 16
Definition: Enoch = "dedicated"

n pr m
1) eldest son of Cain
2) son of Jared and father of Methuselah whom God took home to heaven
without dying

n pr loc
3) the city which Cain built and named after his son Enoch

Hanoch = "dedicated"

n pr m
4) a son of Midian, the third child
5) the eldest son of Reuben

reply to post by mmariebored


Thank you mmariebored....Dedicated...Initiated...Pledged...Seven

_____Strongs_____

H2585 Chanowk khan-oke'

from H2596;

initiated; Chanok, an antediluvian patriach:--Enoch.

That's what I had...
Peace

[edit on 16-9-2008 by letthereaderunderstand]

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand


I hear only bad things about Strongs, that's why I link bible.org.
It gives MANY sources and is the leading site.

You are thinking of God in human terms, which he isn't. God knows you better than you know yourself, so if by chance one time you did choose the health food, God would not have been wrong, because he knew you were about to do that before you knew yourself, but that still doesn't mean you didn't choose. You also have to remember that God is beyond time and space (he created it), he isn't waiting for you to make your decision, he already knows your choice, but through your free will, you still made the decision.

I don't feel like explaining it again, so heres a quote from somebody at another site, who explained it better than I did.

If there is DESTINY..then no matter what choice you would have made...you were still going to wind up in the same exact end position to wherever it was long decided you were going to end up. So you merely had the illusion of choice which affected nothing of the outcome...so in essence you never really had one..because to have true choice...the outcome must be unknown and have causation. If there is destiny...there is no causation...hence GOD is then omniscient.

Can you quote, where God says, "I know all things"? Why would Jesus say, "With God all things are possible" if everything was done? Why would God, "Regret" making Saul (meaning "asked") king of Yisrael if he knew it would bomb already? Why would "G-d" have to "remember Noah" or "Remember his loving kindness" if he is as you say. Why would he have to look for adam and eve after they sinned, if his "omniness" had known?

Because the bible obviously can't keep it's story straight. It shouldn't be that much of a surprise, there were many contradictions in the bible. The authors were obviously a primitive people, who had absolutely no idea what they were doing when they decided to attribute omnipresence, omnipotence, and omniscience, to the christian God.

reply to post by CaptainG0705

CaptainG0705 you are obviously captain of a sinking ship. The ship is called "the Atheist." Fellow crew include AlexG and Dave420. Your staunch, stagnant, stubborn atheism will get you nowhere. All that awaits you is the stone cold grave. You have rejected heaven that Jesus offered you and replaced it with your cerebral wanderings. You feel that science has all the answers and foolishly forget that humanity has limitations. Death is one of them. Life energy is another. Humanity cannot create life from inanimate objects. For you CaptainG to suggest that some day science may discover a way shows that you are clueless as to what life is. Life comprises of the supernatural married to the natural. The body without the supernatural spirit is dead. This is not disputable. It is fact! You obviously had a crippled education if you feel that all revolves around the laws of matter!!
As for free will; of course we have it! The choice is yours to study hard or loaf around; to do good deeds or bad ones. It is irrelevant whether or not God knows what the outcome will be. He did not influence your decision. The OP must be envious of God's astounding supernatural ability. He obviously did not understand the Adam and Eve story. Humanity should explore their surroundings, develop their understanding but should not try and be God. Humanity has limitations. If a cheetah and a human had a 200 metre race, who do you think would win? A human's speed has its limit. Furthermore a human's cerebrum has its limit. A foolish atheist may ask: well who made God? God is supernatural. You cannot know what God knows. He is mysterious and beyond our understanding; but He loves us. If that is not good enough for the atheist and they persist in knowing intimate details about Him then the atheist can go to hell. While roasting, they can discuss with all the horrible murdering godless people of time past such as Adolph Hitler and his cohorts. There will be no God in hell to ridicule. There will be no Christ to laugh at and to question whether He ever existed. Since you rejected God; He will reject you, and you will go to the place where God is not: hot and hopeless hell.