atheists stick their head in the sand/ignore probability!

More mind busting MATH....!!!!


See... www.biblebelievers.org.au...

:w:

[edit on 29-9-2008 by OldThinker]

Originally posted by OldThinker
S, We need to address more relevant/pertinent/’later’ questions of appropriateness…I’ll do my best…but…please….the nation of Israel…set the stage…THAT’s ALL…ok?
Your example of ‘little children’ uses the Hebrew word ‘naar’ which relates to a WIDE range of age…up to mature adult, ok?....for example Joseph, the multi-colored coat dude, played by Donnie Osmond…back in the day… was described as a ‘naar’….also Joshua was freakin’ 45 yrs old and described as a ‘naar…so these were not children goating the prophet!!
These guys MOCKED the prophet…this term was NOT used of KID’s, ok?

I accept that it may have been youths although most translations do state 'little children'. I also accept that they were mocking the prophet however I don't accept that 42 of them could have been mauled (seems fairly unlikely) and how after the deed is done he just quietly saunters of to Carmel without any other explanation or continuance of the bear story

This whole thing, in my mind is a rouse…deception…diversion…WHAT IS YOUR REAL ISSUE?

My real issue is that I do not believe in a god nor to some extent biblical stories - certain aspects I feel have a grain of truth but for most I believe them to be false or exaggerated. So there is no rouse or deception just my disbelief.

Certainly, you don’t spend your precious time LOOKING for Old Testament stories of BS do you???? UR BETTER THAN THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quite right - other's have done most of the work for me, I just check up the references etc and make up my own mind.

OT has presented numerous, yes numerous examples of the fulfillment of JC with regard to the OT predictions…

I don't see it that way, I see numerous assumptions or predictions fulfilled specifically for the act of fulfilling the prediction - if you get my meaning

Knowledge + Life Experience + Circumstances = REVELATION!!!!!!!!!!!!
Time will tell, right? OT Watching!!!

Quite true - although my revelation and yours seem to be at apposing ends of the spectrum

PS: Here’s some more….that the atheists are avoiding!!

Prediction: Jesus would enter the Temple with authority

Prediction: Jesus would be hated without reason

Prediction: Jesus would be rejected by the Jews

I find that a few of these predictions come under the 'predictions fulfilled specifically for the act of fulfilling the prediction' category' as does it not say in John etc that jesus done things to fulfill the prophecies?. But as we already know the bible is quite vague in some parts allowing for many different interpretations of the same verses thus making the correct interpretation unknowable and therefore (while very important) pointless.

G

S, Thanks for your response…pretty balanced, level-headed my man!

Regarding finishing the story, remember the scriptures are a summary many times…not a detailed blow by blow.

It just seems to me all this data I’ve presented could not happen by chance…doesn’t the overwhelming-ness get you to think…”there may be something to this?”

Here’s some more…

Prediction: Jesus would be rejected by the Jewish leadership
OT: Psalms 118:22 “The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone;
NT fulfillment: Matthew 21:42-46 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? 43 "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed." 45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus' parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.
Mark 12:10-11 Haven't you read this scripture: "'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ; 11 the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes'?"
Luke 20:17 Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written: "'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone '?
John 7:48-49 "Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? 49 No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law--there is a curse on them."


Prediction: Jesus would be plotted against by Jews and Gentiles together
OT: Psalms 2:1-2 “Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain? 2 The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD and against his Anointed One.
NT: Acts 4:27 “Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.


Prediction: Jesus would be betrayed by a friend
OT: Psalms 41:9 “Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
OT: Psalms 55:12-24 “If an enemy were insulting me, I could endure it; if a foe were raising himself against me, I could hide from him. 13 But it is you, a man like myself, my companion, my close friend, 14 with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship as we walked with the throng at the house of God.
NT: Matthew 26:21-25 “And while they were eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me." 22 They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, "Surely not I, Lord?" 23 Jesus replied, "The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born." 25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?" Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you."
NT: Matthew 26:47-50 “While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48 Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him." 49 Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him. 50 Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for." Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.
NT: John 13:18-30 "I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.' 19 "I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He. 20 I tell you the truth, whoever accepts anyone I send accepts me; and whoever accepts me accepts the one who sent me." 21 After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, "I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me." 22 His disciples stared at one another, at a loss to know which of them he meant. 23 One of them, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him. 24 Simon Peter motioned to this disciple and said, "Ask him which one he means." 25 Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, "Lord, who is it?" 26 Jesus answered, "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. 27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. "What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him, 28 but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him. 29 Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the Feast, or to give something to the poor. 30 As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.
NT: Acts 1:16-18 and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus-- 17 he was one of our number and shared in this ministry." 18 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.


Prediction: Jesus would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver
OT: Zechariah 11:12-13 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.
NT: Matthew 26:15 and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.
NT: Matthew 27:3-10 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. 4 "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility." 5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. 6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." 7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."

Originally posted by OldThinker
S, Thanks for your response…pretty balanced, level-headed my man!

Regarding finishing the story, remember the scriptures are a summary many times…not a detailed blow by blow.

It just seems to me all this data I’ve presented could not happen by chance…doesn’t the overwhelming-ness get you to think…”there may be something to this?”

Here’s some more…

Prediction: Jesus would be rejected by the Jewish leadership
OT: Psalms 118:22 “The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone;
NT fulfillment: Matthew 21:42-46 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes'?
Mark 12:10-11 Haven't you read this scripture: "'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ; 11 the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes'?"
Luke 20:17 Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written: "'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone '?

As I have said. fulfilling prophecy for the sake of fulfilling prophecy

Prediction: Jesus would be plotted against by Jews and Gentiles together
OT: Psalms 2:1-2 “Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain? 2 The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD and against his Anointed One.
NT: Acts 4:27 “Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.

Could be another quote to show that a prophecy was fulfilled for the sake of it

Prediction: Jesus would be betrayed by a friend
I find this one slightly odd for it would seem that jesus asked judas to betray him - again for the sake of fulfilling prophecy. There are also other problems with this prediction.


Prediction: Jesus would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver
OT: Zechariah 11:12-13 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.
Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."

As we have went over before it wasn't Jeremiah the prophet but Zechariah - however to digress it seems quite strange to me that it should be the required 30 silver, as predicted, which some say would be quite a significant amount while others not so.
Wasn't it was also 30 silver for an ox killing another person's slave (Ex 21:32) seems 30 silver is another recurring theme?


G

S, Hope all is well…been spending much time over here… www.abovetopsecret.com...

It has been a fun thread, lots of great contributors!!!

But I haven’t forgot our discussion, so here’s more, ok?

Prediction: Jesus would have the price for His life given to buy a potters field
OT: Zechariah 11:13 “And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.
NT: Matthew 27:7-10 “So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."

Prediction: Jesus would be forsaken by His flock
OT: Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who is close to me!" declares the LORD Almighty. "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn my hand against the little ones.
NT: Matthew 26:31 “Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'
NT: Matthew 26:56 “But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled." Then all the disciples deserted him and fled.

Prediction: Jesus the shepherd would be struck
OT: Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who is close to me!" declares the LORD Almighty. "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn my hand against the little ones.
OT: Micah 5:1 “Marshal your troops, O city of troops, for a siege is laid against us. They will strike Israel's ruler on the cheek with a rod.
NT: Matthew 27:30 “They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again.
NT: Matthew 26:31 “Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'
NT: Mark 14:27 "You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written: "'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.'

Prediction: Jesus would be spat on
OT: Isaiah 50:6 “I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
NT: Matthew 26:67 “Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him
NT: Matthew 27:30 “They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again.

Originally posted by shihulud

Originally posted by OldThinker
S, Thanks for your response…pretty balanced, level-headed my man!

As I have said. fulfilling prophecy for the sake of fulfilling prophecy

Hey, Just thought of a question...

What percentage of these old testament prophesies were known as prophesies during new testament times?

And where did you get your answer?

OT curious?

Originally posted by OldThinker
S, Hope all is well…been spending much time over here… www.abovetopsecret.com...

It has been a fun thread, lots of great contributors!!!

Might nip over and have a looksee and see what mischief I can get up to.

But I haven’t forgot our discussion, so here’s more, ok?

Prediction: Jesus would have the price for His life given to buy a potters field
OT: Zechariah 11:13 “And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.
NT: Matthew 27:7-10 “So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."

As you might notice it does seem this prophecy was specifically fulfilled (very badly on Matthews part) although Zechariah never mentions a field. For if it were a potters field for clay, that wouldn't be a very good place to bury anyone due to water retention. Also I don't think 30 silver would be enough to buy a field (maybe enough in the Jeremiah story of buying a field for 17 shekels). Something not quite right with this story.

Another thing, it seems there may have been yet another mistranslation. In Zech 11 the Hebrew word used for potter was yatsar which it seems is very similar to atsar which means treasurer or paymaster, now take this is the context of the Zech story it would seem more prudent for the shepherd to throw the money back at the paymaster than to a potter would it not ?? see RSV of Zech 11

Prediction: Jesus would be forsaken by His flock
OT: Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who is close to me!" declares the LORD Almighty. "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn my hand against the little ones.
NT: Matthew 26:31 “Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'
NT: Matthew 26:56 “But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled." Then all the disciples deserted him and fled.

Again note the wording used by Matthew 'for it is written' and 'the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled'

Prediction: Jesus the shepherd would be struck
Prediction: Jesus would be spat on

I think that striking and spitting would have happened to most people that had been condemned or been hated from OT times right up to NT times so I would hardly call these prophetic

Hey, Just thought of a question...

What percentage of these old testament prophesies were known as prophesies during new testament times?

And where did you get your answer?

OT curious?

It seems quite a few prophesies were known (couldn't hazard a guess on the %) during NT times for as we see in many cases the authors making specific reference to OT scripture and applying it to their cause - trying a bit too hard sometimes if you ask me.

Answers in the bible itself.


G

reply to post by shihulud


S


u allright?

Haven't seen you...misssu!

OT

reply to post by OldThinker


Hi OT,

I'm fine, how are you?

I check in now and again to have a read and a laugh but now I just really don't feel like getting involved in the petty squabbles that most threads turn into. I mean its not as if anyone is really going to change their views is it?

However when a nice debate comes along I like to stick my oar in, so get some new threads going LOL.

CYA round.


G

reply to post by shihulud





Yeah, I hear you....life is wearing enough at times...but I'll keep plugging away....


Hey Itarted another.... www.abovetopsecret.com...


Come on over if you like,...