How To Create Evil.

reply to post by Res Ipsa


Using the Bible to defend your faith is just fine. But to profess that it is the Word of God and is as factual as mathamatics or something...is just plain wrong. It is your "belief" your "faith" that says what the Bible is to you.

You would not have like Jesus very much if you were around him during his ministry.
Jesus spoke, half the time, in scriptural quotations.
I am aware of all the arguments used to divert people from the Bible.
Enough has been said to defend it and I do not feel that I need to add to that argument.
To me, if you are not using the Bible in a religious discussion, then you may as well be having a discussion on any mystical or paranormal topic.
Anyone who does not accept the authority of the Bible, to me, should be over in the Psychology, Philosophy and Metaphysics section.
How do you know there is a god and a real person, Jesus, unless you think the Bible is correct?
I think the problem is not what should be thrown out because it is not accurate but what have men taught us about, what they think, the Bible says, that should be thrown out because it is not accurate.
BTW thanks for fixing your avatar so we can see this is: “Judge Learned Hand, arguably the greatest jurist never to be named to the U.S. Supreme Court.”


[edit on 9-8-2008 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by Res Ipsa

But first it is a waste of my, your, and readers time if you are going to make huge leaps in faulty logic. Example. Since I said that all acts of violence in the Bible that are attributed to God should be treated as not literally true....Yes that is true...but then you make this crazy leap of logic by saying I also must believe that all acts of Love in the Bible that are done by God needs to be taken literally? WTF?

As you believe God is love and he has done no violence etc,its not such a crazy leap to assume that you believe only in the non-violent parts of the Bible.

But it is easy as hell to tell you certain things that absolutely did not happen.

Obviously Noah did not get 7 of every animal onto the ark.These kinda things,as you say,did not happen.But what examples can you give me of what you believe didn't happen?

My Christianity is consistent. God does not "kill" nor does he tell people to kill. God can't be Evil since it would require him to not be him.

Where do you get this belief from?
And God can be the author of evil without actually being evil himself.

But I encourage you to start by thinking "Hallmark" in a way. Think about all of the one liners you here about what Love is. "Love is...." and see how many times in the Bible (old testament should be easy enough) that some act of God's just doesn't fit into the...."Love is..." Hallmark card.

So,are you saying that,because God is love he cannot punish those who throw his love in his face?
As the Hebrews were his chosen people,isn't protecting them from their enemies a sign of his divine love for them?

Your goal as a Christian should be a closer relationship with God, you need to know who he is, and who he is not, if you are going to make progress towards that.

This i agree with.

Now, if you want to throw me some challenge to my consistent Christianity then have at it....

As the verses below show us,Jesus believed in the Laws of the OT;

John 7:19

Did not Moses give you the law,and yet none of you keepeth the law?

Acts 24:14

But this I confess unto thee,that after the way which they call heresy,so worship I the God of my fathers,believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

These laws include the death penalty,something Jesus believed in.

Mark 7:9-10/13

And he said unto them,Full well ye reject the commandment of God,that ye may keep your own tradition.10 For Moses said,Honour thy father and thy mother;and,Whoso curseth father or mother,let him die the death....13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition,which ye have delivered:and many such like things do ye.

Do you disregard verses such as this?

I think some Christian's think this free will thing is some type of lease on life God has granted us, rather than a giving up of ultimate power.Can you imagine having the power to stop all suffering and giving that up so a bunch of retarded ungrateful primates can either choose to spit in your face, deny you exist, or smite their own nose in spite of their face? why? just so we could know what it is to Love. to know what love is...to know him.

Wouldn't the feelings you get from humans designed only to love you be shallow and unfulfilling? Where is the satisfaction and warm fuzzy feeling you'd get when you know someone loves you just because?
Loving God because you have no free will,isn't love at all.

Deuteronomy 30:15/19

15 See,I have set before thee this day life and good,and death and evil....19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you,that I have set before you life and death,blessing and cursing:therefore choose life,that both thou and thy seed may live:

We are still dealing with God's Law.....The ten commandments were 8 too many as it is. Most of these "God Laws" were created by man.

The 10 Commandments are 10 imperative statements.
There are also the 613 Mitzvot,found in the books of Exodus,Leviticus and Deuteronomy.There are 365 negative laws and 248 positive laws.
According to several theologians,there are 77 negative and 194 positive laws that can still be observed today and there are 26 commands that apply only within the Land of Israel.

Now i agree that some may have just been the creation of man,but there must be others that are divinely inspired.
Love God and love your neighbour really are all you need,but we don't live in a world where everyone believes this,therefore more than these 2 laws are needed.

Yet I have shed no light on one person that I am aware of. Not one.

Maybe you should share more of what you believe to be true in the Bible.
It might help people (me included) understand where you're coming from.

The fact is that a pagan ruler commissioned to have this book written. (really interesting way to sum it up and I wish I thought of it)

Which ruler?
There has been more than one Bible,and many of the versions have been commissioned by Christians not Pagans.

So when I argued with my Catholic priests I used the Bible when it comported with my understanding of God.

I have often been critisized for "picking and choosing" what I want out of the Bible to serve "my" purpose. I still don't understand what need I should have to defend that, where is the mistake in logic?

Because by picking and choosing you are serving only yourself,not God.
Can you serve yourself and God at the same time?
To disregard all that does not harmonize with what you believe is,in some cases,to disregard the teachings and laws of God and Jesus.

...if you read a book about 9/11 and you read that 8 planes were involved, the attack happened in Chicago, over a thousand people died, Clinton was President, Iran was responsible, it happened in 2001, it happened in the morning, it wasn't reported on t.v. until 7pm that night etc... How would you explain what happened to your class of 4th graders that just read that book for your class?
No, really, take a few seconds to at least understand what I am saying and not what you think I am saying. The Bible is that book to me.

Hope i'm understanding this correctly....
You can tell them its false and to back yourself up you can get other books that tell the truth of that day.
If the Bible is half truths to you,how do you back up your beliefs?
Is it just by faith,by feelings or is there more?

Us Lutheran's are even less fundamental.

I thought Lutherans believed the Bible is a divinely inspired book and is the source of all revealed divine knowledge.

Martin Luther and the Book of Concord taught that the Scriptures were the Word of God

Am i wrong??








[edit on 10-8-2008 by jakyll]

jm, I am all..... verklempt........ that you share the same sentiments for Learned Hand.....But it wasn't my choice to change my avatar...the PTB made me change it.....I wanted to see if anyone could figure out my avatar with just a enough letters and face to figure it out.....Nope...you are the first. What a brilliant man.

.....as for you Jk, I don't even know where to start....I'm not kidding.

You are all over the map once again. Please, I beg of you, just give me one question to answer at a time.

The doctine of CC will stand up to any assualt you can muster. Fire away.

....oh, I do remember one thing.....Constintine is the pagan ruler that commission the Bible to be written. He said something like this...."hey, all you religious people......I need you to agree on what the hell religion we are going to have here." So all these different people with all of their different stories met and they debated over what should be included and what shouldn't......and there ya go....The Bible!

We did something like that recently.....I think it was the 911 commission or something like that. Oh, and we also had the Warren Report (before your time I'm sure)

....also, I do remember this much of your post,(edit; I mean I remember feeling totaly confused by all the scripture stuff)......do you think God intended to make "faith" or the "truth" so damn complicated....how many people just throw their hands up when you Bible Thumpers throw mumbo jumbo scripture at us? "on to me i say that thrice a serpent in the tree will bare fruit righteous, woe to thee that speaks of delayed harvest"
Throw enough of that crap at anyone and we just have to say "uhhh, duhhh, you soooo smart....me too dumb....me believe you...."

....God, (my God) speaks plain English to me. We love to laugh.

....I was just about to say....I will not use this mumbo jumbo to convince people that I am better, or more knowledgeable then them.....and then God just poked me and said...."you so funny, you are about to become a lawyer and you guys throw latin around to be all cool too." I was almost busted for being a huge hypocrit. I mean look at my name "Res Ipsa"....see God is my friend and he just laughed at me.

Now, one question at a time, if you are interested.

[edit on 10-8-2008 by Res Ipsa]

reply to post by Res Ipsa


A lot of people have misconceptions about the Bible.
Tertullian was a Roman lawyer and early Christian writer who invented the concept of the godhead that was later canonized in the Council that Constantine convened.
Centuries later, when the scholars finally did compile a single volume Bible, they came up with a list of included books that was identical to the one (list) Tertullian had made, five hundred years earlier.
So, there is a confusion over what Constantine was really responsible for, in the making of the Bible.
Mumbo jumbo is a later thing and is not the responsibility of the Bible, itself.
Jesus spoke in the common language of the day and did not speak in some sort of high Hebrew, even when quoting the Old Testament.
The New testament was written in the common Greek and not some classical version.
The Greek Bible was translated into the vulgate, the common spoken language of Rome, and not some high legal form of Latin.
The King James Version might sound like some sort of high falutten form of speech but it was the common language of its day.

[edit on 10-8-2008 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by Res Ipsa

Using the Bible "exclusively" to teach, minister, defend, "prove", is how fundamentalist got labled "Bible Thumpers" in the first place. They don't use common sense, they aren't consistent, and use circular arguments. Every religion seems to have this group and they are the ones that are "spanking" all the rest of us.

i find it interesting that you keep you using the word "consistent" christian when its anything but. but its not that your deceptive, you actually dont see the the contradiction of a god who loves unconditionally.

if god doesnt discipline, then why make laws? now you mentioned that you dont feel the bible is the inspired word of god and that its was commissioned by a pagan. fine, then lets leave the bible out for a second and look at this logically on thing at a time.

the first question i have for you would be is God's system of running the universe perfect? (is it the best possible way of running things?)

reply to post by miriam0566


Sorry for being late and "crashing" the thread. But Miriam has made some excellent points. I'm going to have to agree with most of them, including this one.

Originally posted by jakyll

If sin didn't exist before Satan's fall,then where did it come from??

If sin is deviation from G*ds' will, i would assume that sin existed the moment that someone opposed G*ds' will. Makes sense to me. What was said early concerning the "cold being the absence of heat" reasoning, was more than valid.

How was Satan tempted to rebel against God if sin didn't exist??

Who knows . . . That one is a toughy. Perhaps it was G*ds' will for Satan to oppose him? A desire for a perfect enemy so to speak? An attempt at balance? justice? I really don't know. Starting to get paradoxical . . .

If evil isn't God's creation,then how did the Devil create it??

Good and evil, ehhh, it was always a bit too black and white for my taste. They are just words we use to contrast the difference between our moral poles. Satan, Lucifer, the devil . . . When you really get down to it. I think most people are very confused as to the entities true biblical purpose. I know i am.

[edit on 8/11/2008 by JPhish]

reply to post by miriam0566

love demands justice. if someone is unloving, and they cause harm, and they do this willingly and with out remorse, is god suppose to sit and watch? is he going to justify the wicked by allowing them redemption in the end? it boils down to accountability, which seems to be the thing people hate most about god.

This is a very good point,i alluded to something similar in one of my posts.
God loved the Hebrew people,he protected them from their enemies,this protection included acts of violence.
Obviously God did not directly get involved in wars etc but he defended the Hebrews when other people wanted to destroy them.

reply to post by Res Ipsa

.....as for you Jk, I don't even know where to start....I'm not kidding.

Apologies.
A 'lil tip to keep track.It helps me to have the same page opened in 2 windows that way i can reply on one while referring back to the other.

Originally posted by jakyll

This is a very good point,i alluded to something similar in one of my posts.
God loved the Hebrew people,he protected them from their enemies,this protection included acts of violence.
Obviously God did not directly get involved in wars etc but he defended the Hebrews when other people wanted to destroy them.

i agree

i was stating that also to include acts that god was directly involved with. (noah's flood, sodom and gamorrah, coming armageddon)

reply to post by miriam0566



i find it interesting that you keep you using the word "consistent" christian when its anything but. but its not that your deceptive, you actually dont see the the contradiction of a god who loves unconditionally.

if god doesnt discipline, then why make laws? now you mentioned that you dont feel the bible is the inspired word of god and that its was commissioned by a pagan. fine, then lets leave the bible out for a second and look at this logically on thing at a time.

the first question i have for you would be is God's system of running the universe perfect? (is it the best possible way of running things?)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Miriam, my beliefs need to be "consistent" or I need to change, adapt, to make it consistent. If you find an inconsistentcy in something I say then point it out and I will either a) clarify the misunderstanding or b) admit there is a problem and fix it.

....Yes, if there is a system of running the universe than it is in fact perfect.
....is it the best possible way of running things? lol. "Almighty Res"...I think that movie has been made.

.....the most frustrating thing about these types of debates is that we all do not share the same definitions or words....and worse, we use the same words to mean different things.
.....for example......Good vs Evil.........I bet the poster that wrote that meant Good vs "Bad" both are subjective terms. Evil is not subjective. Evil v God and Evil v Love.....they are the same. to add a bit more confusion Love v Hate is good if we are talking about "emotions" and "actions" But....God v Hate.....is not because we are including both aspects of Love when we attribute Love to God. emotion and who he is.
.........oh, that clears things up a whole bunch doesn't it?


So when we discuss "God's Laws" they are not like our statutes. They are instructions......not marching order instructions....but rather, how to build a bird house instructions.
If your goal is to build the ideal bird house than you read the instructions to the letter. You probably could mess up here and there and still end up with a bird house but it isn't going to be the one the instructions layed out for you. God has given us "instructions" on how to build a "Life"

.....so in comes the Bible.....and my next analogy (sigh).....65 people speaking 20 different languages have decided to help you build your birdhouse......one dude says, "hey, I know the instructions say to use 2 inch nails but you can get ur done using 1 inch and it will be cheaper. one lady says, "you must use more nails than the instructions say to use because more is better".....you have two other guys arguing about whether the instructions really meant to say "use such and such wood" because both of these guys think a different wood would be better.....
.....so these 65 people bicker, they add things to the instructions because they feel it will build a better birdhouse than the instructions would....they go and reword the instructions so it "appears" clearer. and after all is said and done.....maybe you get a birdhouse....it depends on how much you listened to them, who you listened to, but.......you really wished that you could have seen the instructions....as written....before these 65 "helpers" changed everything up.

.....The Bible is obviously this birdhouse instruction book. You and I get to read the instructions after way more than 65 people got to muck it up. For me the instructions are a bit easier because I know what a birdhouse is suppose to look like.....so when I read an instruction that says...now take a nail and pound it into your forehead and then measure in equal lengths two boards measuring 1000ft by 2inches.......Most people might hesitate and ponder how those two boards are going to be useful for the birdhouse.....and even more people are going to wonder how pounding a nail into their forehead is going to help build the birdhouse at all.......But alas....the fundamentalist is going to pound away at that nail...because it is written.
...........
God is Love.....perfect.....consistent.....I want to build the birdhouse, "Life" that he has written the instructions for "Laws".....But he sent me a "carpenter" to help me build this birdhouse....and since I am all thumbs....I would be a fool not to let the carpenter interpret the instructions for me...He has also taught me alot about how the birdhouse, Live, is suppose to look like when finished............now for the coup de gras..(spelling).......The goal is not to finish building the birdhouse. But to enjoy building it, to enjoy when the pieces fit together perfectly after pounding your thumb over and over again and finally getting it right.....but most of all is doing this project with the best friend you could ever have.
....too many "Christian's" and Fundamentalist think the end game is to hurry up and make the birdhouse and run it up to the teacher (God) and say..."hey, look teacher, how is my birdhouse, isn't it awesome, isn't better than that guys, I deserve an A." I suspect the teacher is going to be a little dissapointed because you missed the whole point and you didn't enjoy the process, like it was designed to be for. What does God need with 6 billion friggin birdhouses? It isn't about the birdhouse!

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by jakyll

This is a very good point,i alluded to something similar in one of my posts.
God loved the Hebrew people,he protected them from their enemies,this protection included acts of violence.
Obviously God did not directly get involved in wars etc but he defended the Hebrews when other people wanted to destroy them.

i agree

i was stating that also to include acts that god was directly involved with. (noah's flood, sodom and gamorrah, coming armageddon)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know I am one of the 65 people trying to tell you how to build your birdhouse.....but.....what you two believe about the above.....well could I at least suggest you use the shortest nails possible before pounding them into your foreheads. Its just out of love and concern. Its just going to hinder your focus on building the rest of the birdhouse having nails sticking out of your heads, but I have heard that it may increase focus. who knows.

Originally posted by Res Ipsa
....Yes, if there is a system of running the universe than it is in fact perfect.

ok, so hypothetically, if the way god ¨runs¨ things is perfect, are you suggesting that we can run our society (humankind) off his model?

this is the inconsistent part.

you claim god does not enforce any of his laws. that he is this benevolent loving force that paciflly guides us through life. now that is partially correct. but there HAS to be enforcement. you as a lawyer (im assuming you a lawyer, i apologize if im wrong) should understand this. no society can exist without a common set of laws. laws are pointless if they cannot be enforced.

just try to attempt a society with no laws and no enforcement and see how well it goes. that raises the question, if god´s ways (the ways you interpret) are perfect, then why wouldnt it work with regular human society.

your illustration with the birdhouse is nice but it lacks certain key elements. life is not something we just go through and enjoy the ride. for you it might, but for most of us in the world, life is a fight for survival. its coping with one pain after another. its not just building a birdhouse, its fighting those that want to deface and destroy it.

how does one deal with people who are evil. people who dont love you, and literally want to hurt you for personal gain?

your god is looking down on mankind and watching it tear itself to pieces and does nothing?

seriously, how is that loving?

love without justice is not love.

Excuse me but there is a difference between Gods law and the State. Saying there is no Law but Gods orders is not telling the whole story.

Its the State's job to run society but its Gods job to mentor individuals from inside as we learn in church to go inside and find God there.

So there is no contradiction between God and social Laws that develop out of "metes and bounds" of community life rubbing elbows with different sorts of people and different ideologies.


sarc

Originally posted by sarcastic
So there is no contradiction between God and social Laws that develop out of "metes and bounds" of community life rubbing elbows with different sorts of people and different ideologies.

how is it different? God is the supreme lord of everything not the ultimate guidance counselor.

what happens when states fail at their duties? why does god allow states to exist in the first place?

wasnt the question in eden whether or not humans can live independent of god? they would be like god knowing good and bad.. right? so now we have all these nations ruling the way they see fit, and we have alot of pain and suffering to show for it. not for everyone, but for the majority yes.

to do something evil is to do something without the motivation of love correct? an evil action usually leads to suffering on the part of someone. this world is filled with suffering. now to say god will not enforce some sort of standard is to say that he permits evil indefinitely. now noone has answered this yet, how can a god of love permit evil indefinitely?

he cant. its a contradiction.

the bible shows reasons he allows suffering temporarily, but it also clearly shows that he will hold accountable those who cause the suffering. not only does he hold them accountable, but gives them advanced notice.

reply to post by sarcastic

Saying there is no Law but Gods orders is not telling the whole story.

Here is a picture of something that looks a lot like what was put up recently in front of a Catholic church, down the street from me.

Before you can go inside and meet God, you have to walk past this thing.
I think most Christians find themselves in a dilemma while trying to reconcile their belief that God is just and has a fair system of measuring evil and at the same time believe that that same measuring system has been done away with.
I mostly go along with the concept of sanctification that came out of the Protestant Reformation.
It has definitions that contain two concepts, one being about the believer becoming a better person, and the other, that believers are set apart and consecrated for a higher purpose in life.
The old Law does not have to be abolished in order for this system to go into effect.
It runs parallel to the old, but supersedes the old, and while we remain in this sanctification system, we are not subject to the rules of the old, but to the requirements of the state of being consecrated.
This is how I deal with this dilemma; that we are free to go ahead and follow as many of the Laws of God that we can bare and at the same time not judge people who have not gotten to the same point we have.
Our goal is not to see how many people can advance to our level in this system, but to get as many people as possible into the system.
It makes sense to me.
I am not sure that I would even be a Christian today if I had not fallen into the cult that I did.
I would call it the cult of Australian style common sense.
Our leader had a phrase that he used in his lectures when he would compare two opposing views on a point.
He would present the one view that, apparently, he did not like and say, "Well, that just cannot be right, at all!”
This small but global cult was dedicated to soteriology and was determined to find the definitive solution to a Bible based concept of salvation that also made sense.
I cannot point to myself as a god representative but I bear the marks of their influence in my outlook.
Note: of course, sanctification is only half of it, the other being Justification, but that is a little off topic, other than that you cannot have the former without the latter.
Note 2: this organization is no longer around. It was highly persecuted during its day. People in this group who followed the heresies of the old time reformers were branded by their enemies as being cultists.
Almost all Churches today have back-slided into the Catholic version of salvation, mostly without even realizing it.

[edit on 12-8-2008 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Res Ipsa
....Yes, if there is a system of running the universe than it is in fact perfect.

ok, so hypothetically, if the way god ¨runs¨ things is perfect, are you suggesting that we can run our society (humankind) off his model?

this is the inconsistent part.

you claim god does not enforce any of his laws. that he is this benevolent loving force that paciflly guides us through life. now that is partially correct. but there HAS to be enforcement. you as a lawyer (im assuming you a lawyer, i apologize if im wrong) should understand this. no society can exist without a common set of laws. laws are pointless if they cannot be enforced.



your illustration with the birdhouse is nice but it lacks certain key elements. life is not something we just go through and enjoy the ride. for you it might, but for most of us in the world, life is a fight for survival.

love without justice is not love.

Miriam....see how just one word takes us in opposite directions "runs" God doesn't "run" us.....he gave "us" that power and responsibility. He tells us what Justice is....and we screw it up......that isn't his fault.
........No inconsistentcy for me here. I just should have read over your words more closely and not have understood "runs" as "designed"
....Some people could say that God has a hands off approach and that makes him aloof....not at all. When I watch a Viking game from the stands and I see a WR wide open but Culpepper was looking the wrong way...I yell like my head is going to explode....now since I didn't throw the ball for him...or since I wasn't able to stop time...walk on the field...turn his dumb head to see Moss with a 25 yard opening...does that make me "unloving" or "uncaring"? It made me furious as hell but guess what, I LOVE my football even after year after year after decades of dissapointment with my Vikings. I would suggest that God might even be a greater fan of "us" than I am of football.....We sure would be lucky and should be very thankful if that were true.

.....Why this great need for "Divine" judgment? ........anyway, no, I am a 3L. not a lawyer.

..... I still love my birdhouse thing too. so in defense; What does people's suffereing or fighting for survival have anything to do building the birdhouse? Instructions to build it were given to every sentient being alive.......God didn't write one for the poor, the rich, the Muslim's, Jew's, or Christian's....He provides ALL with the instructions....
You might want to turn to page.....in the instruction manual....it says that we are to take 4 nails measuring 2 inches and pound one into the next 4 birdhouses being made next to us.
......Simply put......It is sad if you think the instructions to build the birdhouse could possibly omit the helping of others to build theirs. In fact!.....God purposefully designed it so you could not possibly 0%, complete the birdhouse with the exact amount of material given.....you either will have a bunch of left over parts......teacher no likey.....or you won't have enough parts to finish.......teacher still no likey but now both of you are at fault because you were two stupid to get rid of your extra parts to the guy that didn't have enough.

Our birdhouses (Lives) were not designed to be built by ourselves. We need others and they need us.

....Some question about God creating evil.....I thought that was put to rest.
God didn't create evil. Evil isn't something that is or was ever created, it is just an absence.

....Sin.....a sin is just when you build your birdhouse without checking the instructions. But sin is volitional....(ooooh, going to start the fires now)
Evil does not need to be volitional...

....quick example......I decide that just before my neighbor delivers his final death blow to his daughter "honor killing" because she was dating the Jewish boy next door,......I decided to turn the wheel a bit too sharply and run him over....now is leaving him pinned underneath my car until the ambulance comes, a sin? I profess that I am concerned that if I move the car it might do further damage. I may think that maybe in a few minutes the crushing weight my stop his breathing....but if not....it sure looks painful to be pinned like that....he deserves so much worse...maybe I am teaching him something....Justice........Would that be a Sin?
No problem to fool the police and the rest of the world....But God knows....If this scenerio was judged by Olympic judges we would have....Sin in hitting the guy.....but no, that was Evil hitting the guy....The initial attack on the guy was to righteously defend the life of another.....yes...no sin....but still evil because it was an act of not love for dude...but yes love for the girl.....(Everyday we score off Sin, no Sin, Evil, we could measure in degrees if you wanted too)

......Now if we could just get people to stick to the manual we wouldn't have to sacrifice the quality of our birdhouse with such retarded distractions from people that are trying to sabotage our birdhouse because theirs is taking so damn long to build......."Honor Killing" is something that can bring the Sin and Evil up in me almost as fast and intense as pedophiles can. It makes me get all Fundamental Christian Crusade Klan like.....I want to hunt and destroy such foul creatures and beliefs......oooops, I let go a side of my birdhouse, need to focus.

reply to post by Res Ipsa


You said you haven't changed anyone's view with your unique understanding.

Maybe if you explained exactly what it is you believe in to me and the others on this thread.It might help us to understand where you're coming from.

But sin is volitional.......Evil does not need to be volitional....

My view.
Both can be acts which are either done with or without intent.

But i have a feeling that what i class as sin and what you class as sin are two different things.







[edit on 12-8-2008 by jakyll]

.....sin and evil.....are a bit of a philosophical type issue....give me a moment to think if it really matters................................

....I know that evil is just an absense of God and measured by the degree. Complete evil is of course non-existence...because God does not exist where nothing exists......I personally think anything that is not of God is a "bad" thing, but that is subjective on my part. Some people don't need, or want anything to do with God so Evil is not Bad to them.

Smoking is Evil.......I obviously am not choosing to love (which is God) when I smoke because I am knowingly putting my health at risk, so no love for self there.....and my kids probably would enjoy having their dad live longer than he will because he smokes.....It is a Sin.....because I know better. I know what I am doing and its consequences....

I sometimes envy those that are ignorant or stupid, or blind of truth, because they may do evil but they are unware of their sins and although they can not escape the real world consequences of sin...they aren't going to have Jesus grilling them like I am. I'm screwed because of what I know. I can't tell Jesus or God anything about "not knowing any better"...I do. I would rather be the Op. He will be judged, I suppose, by a different standard....I mean if he really thinks he is doing God's work or is some good Christian then he will simply just be corrected......Me, I have no excuse, I either am going to need to live long enough to make a difference or God could just give me the boot.......speaking of which...


Have you read where it is a sin to "Spill your seed?" The Op and Miram and maybe you, will say that means "no masterbateing" Damn, I wish that were true.....but it isn't....It means "wasting your talent" God has given us, each, some talent to do something.....He wasted a lot of talent on me....Thank God I wasn't an apostle or anybody else he needed to depend on.....God gives out talent to be shared with others. Doing nothing with it.....well that is spilling your seed on the ground.

.....I also want to use that above knowledge to serve as just one example of how I don't believe that which is just comfortable to me, or that I want to believe.....I would much much rather you, Miriam, and the Op be right and that it is just about spanking the monkey.....I would be thrilled....but sorry, it isn't.

Originally posted by jakyll
reply to post by Res Ipsa

 

You said you haven't changed anyone's view with your unique understanding.

Maybe if you explained exactly what it is you believe in to me and the others on this thread.It might help us to understand where you're coming from.

[edit on 12-8-2008 by jakyll]

I can think of several reasons why I have changed no one's mind.

1) I take on Fundamentalist, Psychopaths, Pedophiles, and Inmates. I never have an easy or friendly crowd.
2) I am combative and arrogant when I present anything
3) They don't have the time, energy, intellect, or mindset, to hear what I am saying because it is so simple in concept but complex to explain. It is a different language to so many people. I mean...."God is Love" but hardly anyone agrees to what that means.....you have Miriam that has no problem with that definition (simple) but then mucks it all up with scripture after scripture to make God some human dude that is "confined" to human or Miriam Justice.....(complex) She is unwilling to see God for the enormity that he is....They view him as just the greatest dude that ever lived but by human standards.....she sees the white hair and beard as if he were some old man or something....she sees the handsome "white" Jesus and not the Iraqi or Israelie or anything other than "white" Why do you have pictures of Jesus on your walls by the way????? Did he sit for a portrait or something??

God is about "Divine" Justice......that sure as hell does not mean "Perfected Human Justice"......we don't understand "Divine" justice.

Dying isn't good enough for most people.....they think there needs to be a Hell....punishment..... Talk about small minded people! If you lived to be 5,000 years old, it would be a blink of an eye in the grand scheme of things. But noooooooooooo, we think 100years is long and enough time to do "anything" that would make "anyone" deserving of "eternity" in some Hell........It just doesn't get any dumber than that.

.....I have played Satan for people in an effort to shatter their idea that he is Al Pachino or George Burns. I can create scenerios that make Hitler look like a member of Heaven's Choir......I am just a mortal retard...but I can conceive of a Hell that you wouldn't put your worst enemy in.....Can you imagine what kind of Hell the "real" Satan could come up with? But.....more.....importantly.......You would throw up if God was a being that would ever ever ever allow it.......He would be worthy of loathing.

....Do I believe in a personified Satan??? Up until 2003 I would have laughed at that......Now, I am working to understand the power at work that can be physically felt when you are paying attention, that trys and pull you away from God.......I state emphatically that I will not be swayed by any talk of a Satan.....I will figure out the force and than have an opinion or doctrine or belief on it. No, and hell no, do I believe the stupid story in the Bible about the fallen angel, and the jealous angel, and all that mythology......no serpent either.....So I am beyond all that childish stuff....but I do want and will keep trying to figure out the "force" that sure seemed real.

reply to post by Res Ipsa


excellent post Res, but i have to say that you're bit hard to follow at times because i don't exactly know what your beliefs are (your history i suppose). I have an idea, but it's like reading a book without knowing what the first chapter was. More than possible, but you always feel you're missing something.