Who is to blame for Britain's knife-crime epidemic?

Who is to blame for Britain's knife-crime epidemic?

www.telegraph.co.uk

The penalty for carrying a knife is as much as two years for possession, or four years for taking one to school - and more if the knife is used. But maximum penalties are rarely applied: just nine out of the 7,000-plus people found guilty of possessing knives in 2006 were meted out the maximum sentence. Most were merely cautioned.

Who is to blame for Britain’s knife-crime epidemic? Is it the judiciary for holding back on maximum penalties? Is it the fault of the Government? Or does fault ultimately lie with parents for failing to teach a stronger moral code?

(visit the link for the full news article)

Well, the fact is that we cannot stop violent crime. There will always be criminals, and there will always be murders. The problem is that the people's most effective means of protecting themselves has been taken from them.

Is this what we want to happen in America? Britain's ban on handguns has proven useless. DC's ban on guns has also proven useless. So with all this proof of the ineffectiveness of a ban on guns, why are countries continuing to follow this model?

I hope that ATS members from the UK and Australia (and anywhere else that has a ban on guns) will respond, giving us more information and evidence that this is an ineffective measure. Do those of you who live in these countries feel any safer with guns only being in the hands of criminals? Can this kind of knife-crime epidemic be contributed in any way to the ban on guns, or are the two unrelated, in your opinion?

Could it be that our respective governments really don't care about the people, but are merely trying to protect themselves from an increasingly frustrated populace

www.telegraph.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

If you take away the right to carry a knife, people will then resort to clubs and sticks. Weapons do not kill people, the intent to kill is what kills people.

reply to post by ben91069


Starred..

Exactly..
What do you think the ban on 'Samurai swords' did???

...Made people go out and buy Ninja ones instead..

So they're really trying to tell us that a curved blade is oh-so much deadlier than a straight one??..

They can kiss my donkey..

reply to post by scarlett1125

Who's to blame for the violence? Well there's loads of violence in films and there's loads of violence in that fighting thing called UFC (I think) and that is something I've noticed people are getting into big style. As the culture people view on TV gets more violent then the viewers get more violent too. At the same time most of this knife crime seems to be in the ghettos especially in London. If you live in Englands countryside it's probably another world.

reply to post by scarlett1125


Are you kidding? Check out the murder rates for the UK compared to the US.

When was the last time a school massacre happened in the UK?

You should read about the gun laws in the UK - if you did, you'd be surprised to find that gun ownership is perfectly legal in the UK, just not for handguns (as they're an offensive weapon, solely used to hurt people).

If the alternative for the UK is to become like the US, with shootings every single day, then I say keep the handgun ban.

Working on the cause of the problem - namely poverty and social disenfranchisement - is obviously a far better idea than just dealing with the symptoms by arming everyone.

If the murder rates in the US were lower, you'd have a point. As is it, it rivals some third-world countries. Nice work.

I live in a quiet part of the U.K (plymouth in the south west) and we don't get alot of things like this.
The odd time we'll hear about crime but not like i read and see in the news.

Who is to blame??

I just think it's way things have gone,teens don't seem to have as much respect as they used to for others,everything they do is for themselves,they don't care who they hurt.

The only way around it is to really clamp down on the sentencing,5 years in prison,no parole and treated like a prisonor not like it's a holiday camp

Originally posted by ufoorbhunter
reply to post by scarlett1125

 

Who's to blame for the violence? Well there's loads of violence in films and there's loads of violence in that fighting thing called UFC (I think) and that is something I've noticed people are getting into big style. As the culture people view on TV gets more violent then the viewers get more violent too. At the same time most of this knife crime seems to be in the ghettos especially in London. If you live in Englands countryside it's probably another world.

So you would blame the film/TV industry for crime? What about a government who cares nothing for those people? A society that sees the ghetto as a lost cause?

If you knew that the cops would not show up even if you called, would you not do everything in your power to protect yourself and your family? This is the reality of "low-income/high-crime" neighborhoods in the states, and I'd bet that the same is true of the UK.

Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by scarlett1125

 

Are you kidding? Check out the murder rates for the UK compared to the US.

When was the last time a school massacre happened in the UK?

You should read about the gun laws in the UK - if you did, you'd be surprised to find that gun ownership is perfectly legal in the UK, just not for handguns (as they're an offensive weapon, solely used to hurt people).

If the alternative for the UK is to become like the US, with shootings every single day, then I say keep the handgun ban.

Working on the cause of the problem - namely poverty and social disenfranchisement - is obviously a far better idea than just dealing with the symptoms by arming everyone.

If the murder rates in the US were lower, you'd have a point. As is it, it rivals some third-world countries. Nice work.

Since many of those shooting to which you are referring were committed with rifles, I have to respectfully disagree with you. I also think that the punishment inherent in the UK's prison system has a lot to do with the lower crime rates. This isn't an easy question to answer, certainly. However, the UK started with a lower crime rate in the first place. There are, I believe, many factors that contribute to that lower crime rate: the prison system, fewer taboos, a freer press keeping the public informed, etc. But if you start with a lower crime rate, the comparison can be skewed in favor of the gun ban.

But I'm curious why you consider handguns a strictly offensive weapon? I consider the one on my hip to be an unspoken agreement between me and anyone who would want to harm me. It's like a discussion that never has to take place. The fact that I'm carrying lets anyone who would want to hurt me or my family know that I have it and could use it if necessary. That's a deterrent, and it is more effective than any increased sentence offered by legislation.

Originally posted by ben91069
If you take away the right to carry a knife, people will then resort to clubs and sticks. Weapons do not kill people, the intent to kill is what kills people.

Well said. People should only be allowed to carry a knife if they have a valid reason. Fishing, hunting, diving etc. Basically, if the cops ask you, "what is this for?", you need to provide a suitable answer. If you can't, then it should be an offence.
An all out ban on knives would be just silly. Ban people instead.

Originally posted by dave420
You should read about the gun laws in the UK - if you did, you'd be surprised to find that gun ownership is perfectly legal in the UK, just not for handguns (as they're an offensive weapon, solely used to hurt people).

Is that the official statement that handguns are the exception as they are soley used to hurt people, or is that your opinion?

I ask because i owned a handgun in the army, however i competed in shooting competitions and similar activities. Not once did i hurt someone with it, nor did i have any intention to.

Back to the knife topic, i think the answer lies in better parenting and education at an early age......but not stopping at an early age either.

Not all parents are doing a lousy job, but there is a huge majority that could do a hell of a lot better.

Our justice system is a joke too. Most judges have'nt got a clue and as long as they are'nt affected in thier nieghbourhood, and they continue to pass down poxy sentences to smirking scum.

Our prisons are a joke. I've heard of people now commiting crime in order to get back into prison, the cushy life that comes with it makes it all worth while.

I know there have been some reports that say military style prisons do not work as well as most would like, but i'm telling you now, the soldiers i've taken to the MCTC at Colchester in my time, they were'nt in a rush to go back in there after! They often came out of there better lads and did well after that.

Stop and search should happen a lot more in the areas that need it. I could'nt give a hoot about the police state comments if it mean my kids will be able to walk the streets without getting stabbed. If you get fed up getting stopped every hundred yards because you carry a knife....don't carry one!

This country has gone to the dogs, there is no respect anymore from most of the youth, and the first time you confront them over it......you get done for it yourself.

CX.

reply to post by dave420


That's true about the US murder rate, but ALL violent crime rates in the US are sharply lower than they were in the mid 1980s. So even though we're not there yet, it appears that we're doing something right in this regard:

www.disastercenter.com...

Additionally, the murder rate statistics in the US are largely being skewed by inner city violence. Washington DC, for example, has a murder rate nearly 10 times the national average. Even these numbers have been declining in the last decade or so. The murder rates in most areas of the US are quite low.

In summary, its not a firearm problem. The problem in the US is exactly what you say it is: poor economic conditions coupled with social disenfranchisement. The same problem is probably at the heart of the issue in the UK. Until you fix that, banning guns, knives and pointy sticks won't matter.

Originally posted by vor78
reply to post by dave420

 

That's true about the US murder rate, but ALL violent crime rates in the US are sharply lower than they were in the mid 1980s. So even though we're not there yet, it appears that we're doing something right in this regard:

www.disastercenter.com...

Additionally, the murder rate statistics in the US are largely being skewed by inner city violence. Washington DC, for example, has a murder rate nearly 10 times the national average. Even these numbers have been declining in the last decade or so. The murder rates in most areas of the US are quite low.

In summary, its not a firearm problem. The problem in the US is exactly what you say it is: poor economic conditions coupled with social disenfranchisement. The same problem is probably at the heart of the issue in the UK. Until you fix that, banning guns, knives and pointy sticks won't matter.

I couldn't have said it better myself! I actually posted a thread about this a couple of weeks ago that I think relates to this.

Crime Rates: Who Is at Fault?

It's obviously the government’s fault you can do virtually anything in this country and as long as you know what you're doing you can get off with it or at least with the minimal of punishment.

You could also argue it's the fault of the parents although this also leads directly back to the government for allowing people to run around jobless and hopeless as well as allowing the cost of living to skyrocket so that families who do not claim benefits have to work even harder and more hours to cover their (unsubsidised) taxes, council tax, mortgage and utility bills.

The state of the country is directly linked to the government.

Harsher penalties, less "human rights" for prisoners and less (or more controlled) welfare state benefits.

A knife is a TOOL ..NOT a weapon..
It is used in tasks that a human hand is not capable of performing unaided..

If you take one into a fight you are clearly admitting to yourself that you are not capable of winning the fight unaided and therefore you shouldn't have made that decision to fight in the first instance..


Only big girls blouses would resort to knifing someone..

Hmm.

While it's true that violent crime is something we could all do with a little less of, perhaps what we're missing the point on here is the possibility that the legal procedings in place are not working to prevent knife crimes.

There is a simple explanation for why this is - i believe both U.S and U.K prision facilities are fit to bursting, and as such we can no longer keep people in for as long or put as many people in for committing violent crimes.

So much emphasis has been placed on treating these people like victims - like they're the victims of their own environment.

Our problem lies within the failings of the Justice system, and the arrogance coming from the authorities over the state of that system.

It would seem our one tried and tested method of doing something about criminals is being put through it's paces, and i'd hate to see what would happen to a society that hid away from a problem because no one wanted to accept responsibility or even try to do something about it, at least - with regards to crime rates, of course.

Naturally, in America you can just kill them, that seems to work just as well, and i suppose it's also a surefire way of covering up a real social problem - kill them.

Originally posted by spitefulgod
It's obviously the government’s fault you can do virtually anything in this country and as long as you know what you're doing you can get off with it or at least with the minimal of punishment.

The same problem exists here in the US. Criminals often tend to get relatively lenient sentences for relatively serious crimes. The reason? Prison overcrowding. And why are prisons overcrowded? Its because the government, in its infinite wisdom, locks up relatively minor offenders for relatively lengthy stays. Someone has to get turned out and all too often, its a hardened criminal who SHOULD be there.

Meanwhile, that 19 year old kid who got busted for a little too much weed gets a couple of years in prison. When he gets out, no one will hire him because he's a convicted felon. So how does he earn his living? It should be pretty obvious what many of them do. They become petty theives, and many eventually move onto more sinister work, especially when they may now have gang associations from their time in prison.

And so the cycle continues. If you want to make an immediate impact on violent crime, the best answer, at least over here, would probably be to quit throwing small-time offenders into state or federal lockups.

To make a long story short, we're locking up the WRONG people.

Originally posted by Anti-Tyrant

Naturally, in America you can just kill them, that seems to work just as well, and i suppose it's also a surefire way of covering up a real social problem - kill them.

The number of executions in the US yearly is quite low. Its about 30 per year and a good portion of those are in the state of Texas. Compare that to the enormous US prison population (its well over 1 million).

It seems to me that overlegislation is the the crux of the problem. Everything can now be considered criminal. If you haven't hurt anyone or taken their property, you shouldn't be in prison. Supposedly, the drug war was invented to prevent drug dealers and users from hurting in others in the process of completing their drug deals. Wouldn't it make more sense to address the problems that these people who resort to dealing have? Legalizing drugs and making the prison system strictly for those who commit crimes against the people would solve a lot of the problem. I also believe that caging people like animals is not working. We don't do enough to rehabilitate or to help offenders who actually want to do the right thing when they get out. Instead, we lump them all into the same category and continue treating them like animals even after they have served their time. And then we expect them to be honest, upstanding citizens?

I think its the fact its ALOT harder to get a hold of a gun in the UK unlike the US
compare Gun crime in the US to Gun crime in the Uk

So whats the next best thing thats easiest to get hold of ?
A knife ..Very easy to get , hell all you have to do is go into your kitchen and get a butcher knife