Is the Cross Just Another Lie? (Revised)

reply to post by iesus_freak

jesus died on a pole tree stake or ONE beem of wood with no limbs

its based of off the symbol called the mystic tau look that up i cant explain it all

Thank you, we agree! The symbolism is atrocious.

reply to post by amitheone


As I said before; the symbolic meaning behind the cross is very wicked.

The one point not one person has answered in this entire thread: would this wicked symbolism fit with the purity of Christ and the Jewish fulfillment of prophesy? Jewish law? Would Jesus sacrifice be tainted by such a meaning related to a phallic symbol? Do you all not know or remember how pristine and exact all sacrifices were required by God to be in the history of the Israelites, and that Jesus sacrifice above all, was to be the ultimate in sacrifices, and had to be the final pristine, exact sacrifice? Or has religion conveniently forgotten that? And you all would rather go along with a lie than alter your beliefs?

Or are all of you saying; his sacrifice and the symbolism associated with it really is not that important? He was considered a pure lamb in white (symbolically) so how does his dying on a symbolically wicked symbol...fit? Can't the Gods do anything right?

On the argument that so many Christians have used on this thread of which is absolutely unprovable: that the stake was in place and Jesus carried the crossbeam. There is no scriptural proof or historical information relating this to Christ! It is all supposition that many theologians had to come up with since there was so much evidence that Jesus died on a stake or a tree, without a crossbeam (in the translating of the original words).

Everyone avoids the whole Constantine invention of this theory and the inception of this theory into Christian dogma, and holy ritual. The fact that Constantine was not even a believer! That, it is debatable that he ever was converted in his heart (just a political action)!

Considering that only one religion was "in charge" of how the whole cross, trinity thing came down. Then if God used Catholics to dispense this information and then make it law, why aren't all of you Catholics? So it is okay to buy into the Catholic teachings that were essentially invented by the Catholics, but you can go against God and create other religions? You accept the cross but not Catholicism?

Why do none of you question the sanctity of Jesus death and the method? Why is this so threatening?

Anyway you look at it...the cross is riddled in paganism (proven), hypocrisy and darkness. Satan got a big one over on the masses! And Christianity on the whole - bought it; hook, line and sinker.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by amitheone

 

As I said before; the symbolic meaning behind the cross is very wicked.

Yes. I agree. The evidence speaks for itself.

The one point not one person has answered in this entire thread: would this wicked symbolism fit with the purity of Christ and the Jewish fulfillment of prophesy? Jewish law?

No. The symbol is an abomination as it rightly belongs to the pagans.

Would Jesus sacrifice be tainted by such a meaning related to a phallic symbol?

Jesus sacrifice won't be tainted at all as He didn't die "for" the cross but for all of those who believe in Him. It only taints those who think that the "cross symbol" is a representation of Christ. The cross is just an ancient execution tool for the death penalty. We should remember Christ's ultimate sacrifice on the cross to save all those who believe in Him and not the cross itself. Or, if He were to die by stoning, we should remember Christ sacrifice, and not the stone itself. Remember, the rule still applies, don't represent Christ with anything made by hands as the shape of the cross itself is a pagan symbol. Don't be tricked by the evil one. We should remember Christ death on the cross, and not the cross.

On the argument that so many Christians have used on this thread of which is absolutely unprovable: that the stake was in place and Jesus carried the crossbeam. There is no scriptural proof or historical information relating this to Christ! It is all supposition that many theologians had to come up with since there was so much evidence that Jesus died on a stake or a tree, without a crossbeam (in the translating of the original words).

The most important thing to remember is not whether He carried a cross beam, or the stake was in place, tree, or whatever, and get so technical about this, this is beside the point. The point here is "He died for our sins".

Everyone avoids the whole Constantine invention of this theory and the inception of this theory into Christian dogma, and holy ritual. The fact that Constantine was not even a believer! That, it is debatable that he ever was converted in his heart (just a political action)!

Constantine was the one who tainted Christianity with his paganism due to his political ambition.

For the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman empire, and Christians were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine “legalized” Christianity at the Edict of Milan in A.D. 313. Later, in A.D. 325, Constantine called together the Council of Nicea, in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine envisioned Christianity as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a positive development for the Christian church, the results were anything but positive. Just as Constantine refused to fully embrace the Christian faith, but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices, so the Christian church that Constantine promoted was a mixture of true Christianity and Roman paganism.

www.gotquestions.org...

Considering that only one religion was "in charge" of how the whole cross, trinity thing came down. Then if God used Catholics to dispense this information and then make it law, why aren't all of you Catholics? So it is okay to buy into the Catholic teachings that were essentially invented by the Catholics, but you can go against God and create other religions? You accept the cross but not Catholicism?

Correction "Roman Catholics" to be precise. True Christan are only Bible based and we are to always test the spirit whether they are of God or not for a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. We don't embrace the Roman Catholic practices and ex biblical teachings. We don't honor their pope.

Anyway you look at it...the cross is riddled in paganism (proven), hypocrisy and darkness. Satan got a big one over on the masses! And
Christianity on the whole - bought it; hook, line and sinker.

Yes, the cross symbol is riddled with paganism, ever since in Babylon. I am Christian (Evangelical), and I don't buy it. I don't celebrate Christmas and Easter, and etc. Though my Christian bro and sis celebrates it, I've warned them since. Why lie to your kids that Dec. 25 is the birthday of Christ? Why twist the truth? Why be so blind? We need to also question what the Pastor says. Always be a critical thinker and always test everything. I know how it feels to be left out when everyone is celebrating Christmas. You'll get used to it in the long run.

No compromise. You cannot be on the table of the Lord and also be on the table of demons.

No the cross is not a lie I have used it with unexpected effect it works well so my advice is believe it and use it because some things only understand it if they see it or have faith with it to prject you mind over it.
Get real people, you have all been duped out of faith through the media and your loss is a spiritual key darkness. The whole take the cross down debate is not argued by the human mind alone.

reply to post by MatrixProphet


the cross is pagan....hmm..and its proven, what secret treasure box did you reach into for that, please show a link or some kind of evidence before stating this as fact...ramblings about factual paganism leads to.......oh yes paganism. all im asking for is some kind of solid "evidence" to back up your ramblings about this being fact, not to much to ask i hope? would also like to add that by doing your research, you are in fact believing another source over another source, what is your system of carefully digging through every source to make sure it wasnt fabricated. and then through another...see what im saying, if you say this is right and this is wrong, how do you know, what you think is right could have something in the closet. i know, i know. history, but is one piece of history more reliable than another piece of history. im listening matrixprophet, perhaps if im not understanding you, maybe you could make yourself a little more understandable. maybe if i knew how you drew these conclusions heh.....sorry if i come off wrong, thats just me though. I..just like you question everything.

[edit on 15-7-2008 by pureevil81]

reply to post by amitheone


again with the paganism, cmon now, just because there is a couple people in here that think there word is better than anyone elses doesnt mean its true, once again nothing to show me that it is paganism....absolutley nothing. you dont celebrate christmas or easter, well good for you, keep your beliefs to yourself, if one man considers a day holy, let it be holy for him, if you dont then great, i dont oppose. im all for doing research, ive done alot of it as matter of fact. but simply stating something as proof with nothing to back it up is nothing more than speculation, as there is alot of speculation in this thread, by some more than others. and quoting gotquestions.org.... cmon really, is this your proof.

reply to post by pureevil81


Well, since I will be critiqued no matter what I say, I recommend that you do some homework and not take anyone's word for it. Stay away from theologians who are biased!!

There is plenty of information on the cross and the trinity in countless books that have nothing to do with religion but are books written by historians and researchers who have investigated history and archaeology, trying to determine the origin of things along with what may be bogus, or what may be true.

While you are at it, study Ancient Egypt and its origins of the ankh (the beginnings of the cross), and its 3-1 God entities and do a book report!! Leave your bias behind and you may be shocked at what you will learn!

Write your own thread about what you have learned. We welcome you to do that! And I for one will read what you have to say.

MatrixProphet,

Great thread, thank you for spending your time studying the history of the CROSS.

You were right, Jesus DID NOT DIE in the Cross. This is just conjecture and in no way recompense for the truth. The truth is Jesus was not crucified at all, the Cross was a Pagan invention and the true followers of Jesus did not call themselves Christian. The Apostle Paul, who was not an original disciple of Jesus made up the Son of God lie, a doctrine that Jesus never preached and with it the doctrine of salvation by Jesus' death on the Cross.

004.157 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

005.078 Those of the Children of Israel who went astray were cursed by the tongue of David, and of Jesus, son of Mary. That was because they rebelled and used to transgress.

Jesus did not die on the Cross and the Christians who believe that they are saved for accepting this doctrine has been lied to and turned to Idolaters by Satan. The faith that will save man as taught by Jesus and all the Prophets is this; To love and worship the Lord God with all your heart, with all your mind and with all your soul.

003.051 Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.

002.213 Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth that it might judge between mankind concerning that wherein they differed. And only those unto whom (the Scripture) was given differed concerning it, after clear proofs had come unto them, through hatred one of another. And Allah by His Will guided those who believe unto the truth of that concerning which they differed. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path.

The CROSS is not a sign of Jesus but the sign of the anti-Christ. Jesus did not come to break the Law of Moses, the making of images and idols are prohibited by God, will he teach his followers to break the commandment of God by worshiping and bowing down to the Cross?

This is an excerpt from the teachings of John the Baptist, who after baptizing Jesus on the Jordan River saw how Satan will use Jesus to deceive the people.

" Let me warn you, my brothers, let me warn you, my beloved!Let me warn you, my brothers, against the ….who are like unto the cross. They lay it on the walls; then stand there and bow down to the block. Let me warn you, my brothers, of the god, which the carpenter has joined together. If the carpenter has joined together the god, who then has joined together the carpenter?"

The god which the carpenter has joined together is the Cross. My dear brothers and sisters, God has no similitude to man, He has no beginning and He has no end, when we all die, only God's countenance will remain. Worship the Lord Your God, who created you and do not reject the truth that has now come to you. Jesus is not God, he is a servant of God just like all the other Prophets. He is not a BEGOTTEN son of God, God is a Spirit and he begets not nor is He begotten. Do not be deceived into believing the lie that the people of old believed and they perished for this belief.

009.030 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

005.075 The messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

God is our only Savior.

005.072 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the messiah, Jesus son of Mary. The messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

This is the TRUTH, whoever believes in the truth for their salvation has truly received the mercy of God.

I bear witness that there is only ONE GOD, and Muhammad is a servant of God.

Peace!

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
You were right, Jesus DID NOT DIE in the Cross. This is just conjecture and in no way recompense for the truth. The truth is Jesus was not crucified at all, the Cross was a Pagan invention and the true followers of Jesus did not call themselves Christian. The Apostle Paul, who was not an original disciple of Jesus made up the Son of God lie, a doctrine that Jesus never preached and with it the doctrine of salvation by Jesus' death on the Cross.

in order to deny the messiahship of jesus, one HAS to deny his death and resurrection.

1 cor 15: [12] Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
[13] But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
[14] And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
[15] Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

EVERYTHING a christian believes in hinges of jesus' death. if jesus was the messiah, then his blood being offered for the ransom is the core belief.

of course a religion coming after would have to deny jesus' death and resurrection, in order to make him just another prophet.

reply to post by miriam0566


miriam,

the truth has come to you now.

[14] And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

Do you want your faith to be in vain?

Search all the Holy Scriptures, The Torah, Psalms, The Holy Qur'an, The true Gospel of Jesus, and you will find that Salvation can be found only in the faith that There is Only One God and in believing all of God's prophets. Your rejection of the Prophet Muhammad is obvious, that makes you one with the covenant breakers of old time who disbelieved in God.

003.081 When Allah made (His) covenant with the prophets, (He said): Behold that which I have given you of the Scripture and knowledge. And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, confirming that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. He said: Do ye agree, and will ye take up My burden (which I lay upon you) in this (matter) ? They answered: We agree. He said: Then bear ye witness. I will be a witness with you.

The Prophet Muhammad confirmed the Gospel received by Jesus, just as Jesus confirmed the Torah of Moses. If you really want to know the true teachings of Jesus, read the Holy Qur'an and ask for God's guidance.


005.012 Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We raised among them twelve chieftains, and Allah said: Lo! I am with you. If ye establish worship and pay the poor-due, and believe in My messengers and support them, and lend unto Allah a kindly loan, surely I shall remit your sins, and surely I shall bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow. Whoso among you disbelieveth after this will go astray from a plain road.

002.040 O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you, and fulfill your (part of the) covenant, I shall fulfill My (part of the) covenant, and fear Me.

God has ordered that all the Holy Scriptures be joined together, The Torah, The Gospel and the Holy Qur'an, but only the Muslims believe in all that God has revealed.

002.285 The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) the believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying.

002.027 Those who break the covenant of Allah after ratifying it, and sever that which Allah ordered to be joined, and (who) make mischief in the earth: Those are they who are the losers.


The teaching that Salvation is believing in Jesus' dying for the sin of mankind is the teaching of a false prophet. It's either you believe the truth, or you are calling Jesus a false prophet.

You are responsible for your own sins, Jesus' only responsibility is to deliver God's message. But as you can see, the Children of Israel keep denying the truth even after it has become manifest.

002.048 And guard yourselves against a day when no soul will in aught avail another, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be received from it, nor will they be helped.

003.030 On the Day when every soul will find itself confronted with all that it hath done of good and all that it hath done of evil (every soul) will long that there might be a mighty space of distance between it and that (evil). Allah biddeth you beware of Him. And Allah is Full of Pity for (His) bondmen.

003.091 Lo! those who disbelieve, and die in disbelief, the (whole) earth full of gold would not be accepted from such an one if it were offered as a ransom (for his soul). Theirs will be a painful doom and they will have no helpers.

Believe in God and His Messengers, that is the straight path.

May God guide you to the truth.

Peace!

reply to post by queenofangels_17


I'm sorry to say I have used the cross as defence with faith and caused some unforseen damage on the host. So either the Bible is right or the Koran is wrong. The Bible written by witnesses of events verses the Koran the rewrite of the whole thing to suite Ismael and the Arabs cause of existance no different to Johova witnesses or the Morman Angel messengers. You decide.

I have seen the effect of the cross against evil, then either the Koran is fake and corrupt which the Devil denies everything that Christ stands for and is afraid of the cross's power as one would if he was that evil along with his fallen ones, then it makes sense why all the fuss of banning it occurs whilst making the effort of denying it. I am sorry to say but I have seen its effect, not that I wanted to but out of faith being stuck in dark situation.

You are all strayed away by the same denying entity, it's increase will open the doors of hell on earth.

reply to post by MatrixProphet


im shocked that you cant handle a little objection, calling me bias is completely out of line. in no way shape or form am i bias of anything. like i said it doesnt matter if it was a cross or stake. the meaning of why is the same. maybe you should throw out your bias against the bible.

while i agree when i drive by a church and they have a cross and jesus on the cross, it is sickening to me, there should be no symbolism. i would stay away from any church that had such symbols.

i have done my homework matrix. maybe that is why you call me bias. because you cant answer any question i have thrown your way.

basically, it is said to be about 6 hours jesus was on the cross, of course this could be wrong.but being impaled you would die much quicker, they gave jesus vinegar wine while he on the stake/cross. which leads me to believe he was there for awhile. research vlad the impaler. it just makes more sense to me that it would be a cross because jesus was able to stay on the cross/stake for awhile. whether it was a pagan symbol or not doesnt really answer anything.

i am sorry if i offended you in anyway. maybe i was being a tad harsh. my apolagies.

when you hear and read both sides, they both claim to be true, there are many unbiased opinions out there, both claiming to be correct. so basically i just want to know how you came to the CONCLUSION of who to believe? personally i havent been able to come to that conclusion, like i said the cross just appears to be more correct, like i said he was on the cross for quite awhile.

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
Search all the Holy Scriptures, The Torah, Psalms, The Holy Qur'an, The true Gospel of Jesus, and you will find that Salvation can be found only in the faith that There is Only One God and in believing all of God's prophets. Your rejection of the Prophet Muhammad is obvious, that makes you one with the covenant breakers of old time who disbelieved in God.

i did search the holy scriptures. and this is what i have found over time.

matt 1:[21] And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

matt 26:[28] For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

matt 17:[9] And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

matt 20:[18] Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,
[19] And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

mark 8:[31] And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

mark 9: [31] For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

jesus himself taught that his sacrifice was for our sins.

scriptures that prophecy jesus' death and resurrection (didnt list them all, as there are too many)

psalms 16:[8] I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
[9] Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
[10] For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
[11] Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

psalms 22;[14] I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
[15] My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
[16] For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
[17] I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
[18] They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
[19] But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

psalms 30:[3] O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
[4] Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.

isa 53:[4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
[5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
[6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
[7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
[8] He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
[9] And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
[10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
[11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
[12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

The teaching that Salvation is believing in Jesus' dying for the sin of mankind is the teaching of a false prophet. It's either you believe the truth, or you are calling Jesus a false prophet.

it is you who is calling jesus a false prophet, and you are including isaiah, jeremiah, ezekiel, daniel, hosea, joel, micah, haggai, amos, habakkuk, zechariah and malachi.

all these testify that jesus is the messiah who died for our sins.

and yet you take the words of one prophet who claims to be of god over them.

to accept the holy qur'an is to reject the holy bible.

It does not matter if the cross was once used by pagans, its never going to be the same cross as Jesus was on and made victory over it. The occult version of the star of David is not the same as the Satanic one since they both mean different things.

Originally posted by The time lord
It does not matter if the cross was once used by pagans, its never going to be the same cross as Jesus was on and made victory over it. The occult version of the star of David is not the same as the Satanic one since they both mean different things.

has it ever occurred to you that is discussion is the reason why god told us not to use symbols or idols?

maybe he foresaw that it would cause problems with true worship. there are many examples of god commanding not to do certain things exactly because the nations did them.

if pagans use symbols for worship, it makes sense to me that god would say not to.

[edit on 17-7-2008 by miriam0566]

reply to post by miriam0566


The problem is not the cross as a used symbol but the belief to it in what it tells. People use it as a reminder and with faith it becomes something to say to the evil ones, remember this cross and who died on it. People are not worshipping the idol of wood but the meaning behind it and if a cross is that symbol of hope then it's better to use it than to hide it and forget what it stands for. It's just an advert for that faith, and many entities and satanic worshippers use symbols to draw in their powers and we have to use the conquered symbols to overcome that. A circle for example is used to protect against spirits and demons as some how the translation of it effect that dimention.

Words of Christ are more powerful but a little faith even if it takes a symbol to ignite it will help more than not.

Originally posted by The time lord
People are not worshipping the idol of wood but the meaning behind it and if a cross is that symbol of hope then it's better to use it than to hide it and forget what it stands for.

but remember, the isrealites did the same thing. when moses when up the mountain, they make a calf to pray to and make sacrifies, some even said that the calf represented god, and it was just a symbol.

god still disapproved.

2 of the 10 commandments

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

notice that there is no distinction between making an idol that represents god, and making an idol that represents a pagan god. both are condemned

My reply is to all the previous posts:

In researching the cross/trinity (they go hand in hand in ancient history of the Egyptians and other civilizations) I went to many, many resources and have done so for many years. I believe that mankind, and especially religious mankind, have been incredibly duped.

In saying this, I certainly understand the "feelings" that so many of you have regarding the romantic side of the cross. But...I question the spiritual side!

As Miriam said, idols were never accepted in the history of the Israelites when Jah had much more of a; one on one relationship with mankind. He abhorred paganism and it shows throughout the Old Testament.

The Egyptians believed in dual gods, a trinity of gods and countless other gods. They also used; cross like symbols, representing fertility and copulation. The Hebrews were to stay away from their teachings and were condemned for bringing along many of the Egyptian beliefs and ways into the wilderness with Moses.

Even if there were no archaeological proof, ie. look to tombs, hieroglyphics, writings, their jewelry, paintings, metalwork, sculpture and household items all displaying their beliefs in a cross (ankh, which would come to be known as crux ansata in Latin - which would then have an important place in Christianity with its many derivations). But first, it would be passed down through the Babylonians and the Greeks in their pagan religions. All of this to include their pagan rituals!

My God would have nothing to do with this, nor would his son! The cross actually takes away from the meaning of Christ and gives me the heebie jeebies! It has such a dark feeling associated with it, IMO. The cross represents evil to me, not the light.

Here are some books to enlighten those who have no clue of the nature of the cross. If I have already mentioned these resources then forgive me, please:

"Our Phallic Heritage" by C. G. Berger
"The Sex Worship and Symbolism of Primitive Races" Sanger Brown M.D.
"Phallic Worship" Robert Allen Campbell
"A Short History of Sex-Worship" H. Cutner
"The God - Idea of the Ancients" Eliza Burt Gamble
Encyclopedia Britannica has much to say if researched!

reply to post by MatrixProphet


thank you matrix,

this is the info ive been asking about, maybe i wasnt clear, you have to understand when you write something of this magnitude then you are gonna have alot of questions to answer. personally i like to seek the answer, when i find the answer i question that answer. you actually told me to not believe your word yourself, to research it. and i have, and will continue to do so.

i have read a couple of the books mentioned, i will read the others also. encyclopedia, man i missed that one completely, doh....

thanks again matrix, but when i do get back to you on this, and i will, be prepared for a few more questions. i will never stop asking questions. part of the search for truth.

P.S. : you still didn't comment on how long it would take to die on the cross compared to being impaled, like i said, check out vlad the impaler, it is very relevant to this discussion. peace

again with the paganism, cmon now, just because there is a couple people in here that think there word is better than anyone elses doesnt mean its true, once again nothing to show me that it is paganism....absolutley nothing.

Friend, did you manage to see the physical evidence on the Mayan artifact I posted on this thread? Did you see the cross? I can show more the symbol of the cross on a Babylonian and Egyptian artifacts, before Christianity came into being.

you dont celebrate christmas or easter, well good for you, keep your beliefs to yourself, if one man considers a day holy, let it be holy for him, if you dont then great, i dont oppose.

Romans 14 -

5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

I don't celebrate them because its from the pagans. Know its origins. That verse you are trying to explain here are talking about the Jewish holidays - like the feast of tabernacles, feast of trumpets, the passover, new moons, etc., according to the context of the passage. These holy days are sacred to the Jews. That verse does not talk about "pagan" holidays and it certainly does not say that is is ok to celebrate pagan holidays. Otherwise, if its ok, I can celebrate all the "sacred" pagan holidays of the heathen religions, such as this one:

Google - Kanamara Matsuri

(I don't want to post the links here as its not suitable for minors. Just google it.)

So, is it ok for me to celebrate this as I do this unto the Lord??

Or, how about this festival, the lent holidays of the pagans:

www.thailandmagic.com...

(Don't watch this for the faint of heart)

So, is this ok to celebrate and take part as I do this unto the Lord? Remember, Christmas, Easter, Lent, cannot be found in the Bible as it rightfully belongs to the pagans. Just ask Constantine. He's the expert here.

im all for doing research, ive done alot of it as matter of fact.

Alright, show me a cross symbol from a Sumerian artifact.

Remember, claims can only have value if it is solidly backed up by "hard" evidence.

[edit on 7/18/2008 by amitheone]