A Question For People of All Faiths.

I asked a question in the thread "Do people who aren't Christian deserve to be tortured in Hell?" quite sometime ago but unfortunately it got ignored.

Here is my exact post from that thread:

Originally posted by Toy_soldier

Originally posted by barmshadow84
Not very many people deseve to go to hell. However the Holy Bible states that to go to Heaven the only way is to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior. PERIOD. THose who don't will go to Hell.
It's our job as Christians to help others to understand the GOOD NEWS about Jesus Christ. However when someone isin't interested & says so we should leave them alone & pray for them.
You can take a horse to water but can't make it drink.

Yes, but what you need to understand is that when Christians "do their job" and tell people about their personal savior, it's just yet ANOTHER religion coming up and saying, "This is the only way to heaven".

Imagine that you had no religion and 5 different people from 5 different religions came up to you in the street and started telling you to accept their faith or burn in hell. What would you do? What makes any one of the five religions there anymore plausible than the others?

It's like there's 5 people trying to lead that poor horse to 5 different bodies of water and telling it "If you don't drink from my water you will suffer an eternity of pain and torment."

The horse will most likely flip them all the bird and go find its own damn water.

I was just wondering if anyone was able to answer that question? What makes YOUR faith any more true than the next persons?

Thank you

(I realise that Christianity is the only religion actually named in my post but that is simply because that was the topic of the particular thread I made the original post in. This thread of mine, however, is in no way meant to single out one specific religion. It is directed to all relgions.)

No. They don't.

I don't believe in hell and frankly think it's a very unloving concept from a supposed loving god. I never did understand the idea that " Jesus loves you" but if you don't accept him as your personal saviour you're condemed to a burning pit of tortourous existance for all eternity.

I ask: What about people who never heard of Jesus?
I ask: What about the people who died before Jesus supposedly sacrificed him self for their sins?
I ask: What about a Hindu or Muslim who was rasied all their lives in their religion, Believes in it whole heartedly and lives a good, moral life?

Hahaha I have asked many religous people that exact same question, and sadly the only answer I ever got was that they had faith that their belief was the only way.

good question I hope this thread takes off

reply to post by Toy_soldier


I posted this personal response in another thread that raised the same question, so, I will post it here in your thread, hopefully, at least, providing you with an answer as to why I believe as I do.

What makes The Gospel of Christ unique, setting it apart from every other spiritual concept regarding heaven, eternal life?

The fact is, that through Christ, and ONLY through Christ did God perform the work of reconciling the entire world to Himself:

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ , reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (II Corinthians 5:18-19)

God chose a work of reconciliation to do and it was done through his choosing and, everything outside of that choice, Jesus Christ, is nothing more than man's vain attempt to somehow get around that plan; but as the scripture clearly lays out, it was in Christ and Christ only that God was found reconciling men/women, the world, back to Himself.

Originally posted by Merigold

I ask: What about people who never heard of Jesus?
I ask: What about the people who died before Jesus supposedly sacrificed him self for their sins?
I ask: What about a Hindu or Muslim who was rasied all their lives in their religion, Believes in it whole heartedly and lives a good, moral life?

Those are excellent questions. I hope they get addressed in this thread too

reply to post by jdposey


Hmmm. So what you're saying, as I understand it, is that you believe that your religion is right based on scripture that is written about your particular religion.

But, in order for that scripture to hold any truth, wouldn't the religion first need to be true?

What if a different religion just says that God didn't do what is written in that scripture, and what really happened is ... *Insert a quote from a different text here*

My point is: You need to believe in a certain religion before you can believe what is written in the scripture that you quoted.

That doesn't really give any reasons as to why your religion is the "right one" out of all the religions there are in the world.

I don't think torture is anything but a fabrication of man.... Personally.\
Can you have "free will" and be rule bound then "punished" if there is no compliance..??well free will is now out the window..
Religions need to see the bigger picture than the one that has been painted poorly i may add all these years....


Searching for the one true God, all Creation is like a really steep hill....you can crawl down, walk ride a bike float a air balloon down...your choice but the end is the same and ultimately you must go with it ...
walk up the hill all you like get all the fancy toys to keep you from goin down that hill and it only pro longs the enevitable...

Originally posted by Merigold
No. They don't.

I don't believe in hell and frankly think it's a very unloving concept from a supposed loving god. I never did understand the idea that " Jesus loves you" but if you don't accept him as your personal saviour you're condemed to a burning pit of tortourous existance for all eternity.

I ask: What about people who never heard of Jesus?
I ask: What about the people who died before Jesus supposedly sacrificed him self for their sins?
I ask: What about a Hindu or Muslim who was rasied all their lives in their religion, Believes in it whole heartedly and lives a good, moral life?

Actually youve highlighted my exact gripe with Christianity. Personally i am a hindu, but i believe that Christ was god on earth. I believe that there are many paths that you may walk along to reach the same final destination.

In short i like religion; but i hate proselytism and evangelism.

I consider my faith to be more true than anything other religion purely because of what i know of the qu'ran and how i interpet it. However i also know that i cant be sure of it either. So i consider all religions equal but i just am a muslim while i do that.

That is how people should believe imho. Believe but remember that you could be wrong.

Originally posted by Merigold


I ask: What about people who never heard of Jesus?
I ask: What about the people who died before Jesus supposedly sacrificed him self for their sins?
I ask: What about a Hindu or Muslim who was rasied all their lives in their religion, Believes in it whole heartedly and lives a good, moral life?

Well I'm not an expert. I was raised a christian and now consider myself an agnostic. But i'll answer them the way I was always taught.

Never heard of jesus?
When you die you are given the option of believing and judged on your life.

Died before jesus?
Jesus supposedly went to hell or purgatory or whereever and rescued those people that died before he did.

What if you are another religion and lived a great life?
If you heard about jesus and "rejected him" then you are going to hell. If you haven't heard about him see my first answer.

Please don't flame me for my answers, but I am pretty sure they are the standard chrisitan teaching.

I was raised an open minded Christian and even considered myself a born again Christian (still do but born again x infinity ) . I gave my life to Christ through a Younglife retreat in Ocean City Md in 1985. However, being in this new group of Christians I was exposed to the Rapture cultists which was never in my childhood church upbringing. We were taught along the lines of Martin Luther King Jr. and Ghandi about a peaceful God that wanted us to be happy and live peacefully with the planet and fellow inhabitants.

BUT THEN.....

I discovered Rastafari. During this phase I was exposed to the non-white centric version of biblical history. I was exposed to the great cultures of Africa's past. I was exposed to other paths of Christianity and spiritual practice which led me to more exploration..

as I developed a stronger relationship with God and learned about meditation and Kundalini that there was a real personal relationship to be had with God. It seems that once I got the confidence to accept what made sense and drop that which others were telling me to believe in order to be accepted by them, well then I started down the road of personal freedom.

I questioned why God would doom anyone to hell that he had not given a bible too and had not performed the secret club handshake before they died.

I also questioned who wrote the bible, how the bible was assembled, how did it change through the many translations and lastly how was it rewritten to satisfy the powers that be.

I believe it is important for people to learn to listen to their inner voices on matters concerning spirituality. I also have come to find that it is rewarding to learn about what the various world religions hold in common. Lastly, I have come to find wise lessons in Taoist and Buddhist teachings.


/gobbletygook

reply to post by Toy_soldier


Well, as for Religion and Faith, they are two different issues. I don't subscribe to any particular religion.

As for any other faiths, and their correctness, like I attempted to show you, you won't find God in Mohammed, Buddha, Krishna, Dali Lama, whomever, doing a work of reconciling the entire world back to Himself.

Jesus Christ, by whom God made Peace with the world and designed His plan of reconciliation around, doesn't leave room for dabbling around with other faiths, at least for me personally, no matter how noble and loving they may appear.

If someone gave you a roadmap and said, "To get from point A to point B, you can only take this road," I have a choice to either take that road or, go sight seeing down all the forks in the road. The only thing is, if I venture too far off, I might never make my way to point B, for having lost my way, due to all the forks in the road I decided to check out along the way.

Where faith is concerned, curiosity is not a good thing.

Thanks and Blessing to You!

Originally posted by jdposey
Where faith is concerned, curiosity is not a good thing.

Ah, man, I hate sounding arrogant and rude, but seriously, this is the most offensive thing I've seen written on ATS about faith.

Two points: firstly, if no one were to have curiosity in their faith, then all those non-Christians would never be curious enough to convert to Christianity - what you mean is, it's not good for people who are already Christian to be curious about their faith; secondly, everyone should be curious about their beliefs, and not just accept what's told to them without really exploring the idea. As a non-Christian, I have to say that I respect your religion a lot, and I believe it will eventually lead you to God, although via an extremely convoluted path. But the thing is, it's the journey, and not the destination. We're always with God, we just don't always realise it, and the journey is what gets us to realise it. We're never, ever going to reach the final destination in this life, so why not take the scenic route? God isn't going to turn his back on anyone (in my belief system). Not even the Christians.

reply to post by rexpop

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

I did not intend to offend anyone with my post. I am certain many were offended when Jesus stood up and made the proclamation he did , as indicated in the above scripture.

The strange thing is, when I realized, what I originally have conveyed in my two previous posts, I wasn’t offended in the least, why? I wanted the truth and nothing but the truth. I wasn’t looking for things which can fit my priorities and beliefs, just the plain, simple truth, no matter what.

As for everyone arriving at the same point in the end, no, that will not happen, no matter how convinced they are regarding their thoughts. Jesus made it clear, as clear as can be said, even if some are deeply offended by it, it will never change the plan which God put in place and worked out for man via Jesus Christ and His Cross.

I think anyone who would give up His life for the entire world, should have the right to make the statement that He did and stand by it. And, through Faith, I stand by it also.

Yes, but, you see, many of us simply don't believe in Jesus. I don't believe that the gospels are historically accurate. I don't believe Jesus performed any miracles, or said any of the things reported to him. I don't believe God had a 'son', I don't believe that the NT is revealed scripture. When I look at it, I don't see the simple truth, but a text that's mislead millions of people. I'm being blunt here and not nearly as courteous nor as understanding as I usually attempt to be for the simple reason that when it comes down to it, the only proof of your religion you have is your text - the same as anyone else. If, however, I don't believe your text, your proof vanishes - and the same is true for you: if you reject my text (which you have every right to) then you have no proof that my beliefs are true. And if your text was so true, so airtight, so unimpeachable, why would you mind if people questioned it? Surely if it is true any rational being with a little bit of exploration will come to the conclusion that it is true? Fortunately, religious texts simply don't and can't work like that, or else everyone would believe the same thing. People who aren't Christian haven't rejected Christ - there's nothing there for them to reject.

And, to clarify, I wasn't offended by the religious maxims you put forward - I can see how meaningful they are to you, and what a positive influence they've had on you and your relationship with God - I was offended by your assertion that people should stop being curious. That people shouldn't challenge their faith, shouldn't question their relationship with the Almighty. I've said on another thread (and please feel free to disagree with me, because I am all too fallible) that I think one of the key characteristics of faith is the struggle, the dialectic with the Creator. Without that, how can our relationship with Him grow, how can we come to know him and unite with him more closely? And please, before you tell me to accept Jesus, let me explain: I consider worshipping a middle-aged man who lived 2000 years ago as though he were God to be idolatry, and I consider the doctine of the Trinity to be polytheism. To "accept" Jesus, who was, to me, nothing more than a man whose death was exploited by a splinter faction of Jews would be anathema to my spiritual progress. I understand that to you Jesus is God and that for you the only way to know God is through Jesus, and I don't begrudge you that faith, and I wouldn't want to convert you, and I understand that it must fill your life with a closeness to God and a spirituality that your soul craves. But if you shut down each conversation from the start with "mine is the only, simple, plain truth and everything else is wrong" what kind of discussion can we possibly have? There are others on this forum who are simply not convinced by Christianity, and we are seeking what we believe to be the truth. You already have your truth, and it just falls short for a lot of us. Let us find our truth. After all, if your way really is the only true truth out there, we'll all end up coming to accept it in the end anyway, won't we?

I apologise if this message has come across as aggressive, it's not my inttention, but I want to be able to talk about this topic in detail, and it does specifically state that people of all faiths can take part in this one, not just Christianity.

Please let me restate - I'm not telling you you're wrong. It's perfectly possible that you are right, but not everyone else thinks so, and quoting your own scripture isn't convincing, because the only reason to believe your scripture is if your religion is true and the only reason to believe your religion is if your scripture is true. It's circular - and every religions faces the same issue, every one.

EDITed for typos.



[edit on 17/3/2008 by rexpop]

let me explain why there are so many religions to begin with. There is only one true religion, one relationship, one God. God is at war with Satan, mankind is its battleground. Satan and his minions have been judged and are going to hell and the lake of fire for eternity. The war is for souls, how many can satan take down with him and by doing so he has created thousands of religions to confuse mankind. the bible says "God is not the author of Confusion" but we know that satan is. We know that the evil that exists in this world is first in the flesh and second from Satan. Man is born in a state of unrighteousness with God or a state of Sin because Adam rebelled against God causing all Mankind to Fall.

Now that satan is the God of this world all mankind falls under his dominion, anything under his dominion is under the same judgement that satan will receive. So, by not choosing Christ you become his enemy. You can't be neutral you are either for him or against him. When you become a Christian you immediately come out of the kingdom of darkness which is satans kingdom and into the kingdom of the light which is Christ.

We know that Christ has defeated satan and all those that are in Christ have that same authority over Satan that Christ does. Reason is to decieve people into not becoming a christian, is the authority that gives men over the devil, he doesn't want you have power over him. The first reason is because he hates us and God, and wants to take as many as he can with him. the second is because he's a defeated foe and doesn't want man to have authority of him. that is why there is so much deception in the world on religion, so many religions all cloned after each other in similar likeness to confuse men. Christianity is the only Religion that is a love relationship in which Salvation is Free, there is nothing you can do to earn it, All others make you work for it.


Keeper

Originally posted by jdposey
reply to post by rexpop

As for everyone arriving at the same point in the end, no, that will not happen, no matter how convinced they are regarding their thoughts. Jesus made it clear, as clear as can be said, even if some are deeply offended by it, it will never change the plan which God put in place and worked out for man via Jesus Christ and His Cross.

I think anyone who would give up His life for the entire world, should have the right to make the statement that He did and stand by it. And, through Faith, I stand by it also.

Yes, that is what you believe, but it doesn't necessarily make it true

I understand that you are going to present whatever it is that you believe in as if it were FACT, but it's like tomcat ha said (I think this is very true), "Believe but remember that you could be wrong."

But that also goes for me, with my no-relgion. It could turn out that one of the religions were infact true and we're going to be judged based on the standards of that religion, but I am still convinced that it could be any one of the religions out there in the world.

Just because your God said "I am the only way to heaven" doesn't make it any more true or "real" than any other God or prophet or anything like that saying it too.


[edit on 17-3-2008 by Toy_soldier]

I think hell is bad Karma... Say you had a young girl or boy that was murdered or tortured. Karma would dictate that the offender comes back to raise a family of his/her own and one of his/hers would be taken... That would be worse than a lake of fire if you ask me. Depending on the way the young one died your soul would be tortured until the day you die would it not? That would be hell. Not a day would go by that you didn't think of the suffering and pain of your child.

Does this mean that someone that lost a child today is guilty? Maybe not? Is your vengence paid through blood in the next life? Do you drop a bomb on that persons family?

I don't think you go to hell. I think you live it... If you are evil in this life or were in the last be very afraid...

Hell doesn't exist.

Here's why.

Check it out, you'll be happy you did

I attend a Christian church every week, but it's more of a "how to live
healthy and wealthy while helping others" type of teaching. Our Pastor
used to be very vocal about Jesus being the "only way" to heaven, but
now that our church has grown to thousands of members who are from
many nations, he's pretty much abandoned that theme. I'm so glad he
did because I was about to quit attending. Now his sermons are all
about living a well-rounded life, seeking God's advice, and helping those
who are in need. It's religion, but very universal in appeal. He's still
too money/wealth oriented for my taste, but noone's perfect.

Those pastors who say that Christianity is the only way to heaven are
making God look like a real evil entity. What Father would condemn
2/3 of his Children to eternal suffering? Since God knows everything in
advance, these pastors are saying that God knows that 2/3 of the modern
day population would be non-Christians and therefore condemned..but
he keeps pumping "children" into this biosphere, knowing that most of
them will go to hell upon death! This makes me not even consider
Christianity as being the only way. I refuse to believe that my Father
is that evil and sadistic.

More than likely, the truth can be found in Near Death Experiences
of adults and children that have been cataloged from around the
world. The truth is more beautiful, grand and elegant than what any
religion can conjure up! Read some of the research conclusions at:
www.Near-Death.com...

-CWM




[edit on 17-3-2008 by carewemust]