A Question For People of All Faiths.

Based on the nature of "faith" no one religion can be any more logical or plausible than another, in any real sense. It is an issue of faith, thus definitively illogical.

I speak of religious Dogma, that is. The concept that we are spiritual beings with a purpose for existing seems to be an innate understanding built into the human machine.

Spirituality can only be a personal thing, and loses all meaning when it becomes the rituals done in a large group. Jung talked extensively about this.

Anyone who says you are going to be tortured in hell for not thinking like them has a form of acute delusional psychosis.

reply to post by Toy_soldier


Hell, for starters will be full of hypocritical Christians from all denominations. Hell, if you choose to believe in it will be quite a busy place full of people/souls/whatever from all corners of the world/universe and from all different times. When you're in hell, it's going to be a free for all and anything goes. Kinda sounds like a fun place if you make the most out of it. You wanna guess where hypocritical politicians will go?

Originally posted by Toy_soldier
I was just wondering if anyone was able to answer that question? What makes YOUR faith any more true than the next persons?

It isn't. I mean it works for me, but I'm not going to try to convince other people that it's the road they should take... Because if they're not already on it, or actively looking for someone to help them find it, then, well, it's not their calling.

HELL is human imagination, people who believe in it are just plain stupid.

If you don't mind I would like to throw out a couple of ideas on this subject.
The idea that non-christians will be torturted in Hell does have it's references to the bible. The struggle that both christians and non christains have is determing which sections of the text(bible) to read and interpret as literal meaning, and which sections to interpret as figurative. Perhaps what is most intriguing about religion is that there exists in all of us a drive. A drive to know eternal truths. Distinguishing then, the actual meaning of scriptue is simply a natural consequence of this instinct. Perhaps this is why so many interpretations exist as to what these eternal truths are (because they are interpreted by man through the lense of his own biases and perceptions)
Here is what I believe. I believe in the divinity of christ. I also believe, however, that those who have lived, are living, or will live, without the opportunity to accecpt christ as their savior will be able to do so after this life. I believe God is our eternal father. As a father he loves us and wants us to return and live with him. As such, I believe he will provide every possible opportunity for us to do so.
As to the torturing of non-believers, I believe this should not be interpreted literally. I beleive that after we pass from this life to the next we will know exactly where we belong. The "torture" the bible may be refrencing is not the whaling of the knashing of teeth as the scriptures describe, but the terrible sense of loss....knowing that we will not be allowed back in God's presence. These overwhelming feelings of shame, loss, and failure, to me is what is meant by "torture"
Sorry, this got a little long but I really thinki there have been some really valid points made by all of you and I just wanted to chime in.

True faith only comes through doubt. I was raised a catholic, but i now dont believe that any man named yeshua ever truly existed...but...those ideas did come from someone...someone accessing that great spirit within that we all can touch...and most of those ideas (jesus supposed teachings) were actually very zen or buddhist in nature. I often say i dont believe in jesus, but i believe in christ, which is that divinity which resides within us all. One of the thing that "jesus" said was the kingdom of heaven is within you. This meaning that heaven is not somewhere you go when you die i think, but something you have now and only have to look within to find. This being the case, and "hell" being absence of contact with god...perhaps the "jesus" of scripture was referring to the hell we live in when in life we fail to look within, or choose to go against our intuition, that within us which knows which choices are right and fulfill our deepest needs for growth and love. I know for a fact that when in my own life i choose to go against my inner knowledge wether its due to desire or attachment, i often find myself travelling a long path of hardship and travail...yet when i follow my inner knowledge everything seems to fall into place like magic. This is just my 2 cents! Namaste' to you all.

NO! IF? There is Another law for Them (^^,)

Romans 2:15

15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Hebrews 10:30

30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[a] and again, "The Lord will judge his people."

[edit on 17-3-2008 by johnb1]

reply to post by Wilsonfrisk


I need to resepectfully disagree with your concept that because religion is based on faith, no particular religion cannot be more logical than the next. Faith is the belief in things not seen, and the hope in things that are true.
Truth encompasses all. Truth, by its nature cannot have mulitple meanings. It should be mentioned however that multiple meanings, consisting of singular truths, may be combined into an ultimate "truth."
Consider a puzzle. Each piece has its resepective place. As more and more of the pieces are put into the place "the bigger picture" begins to expose itself. In putting together this puzzle, there are going to be some puzzles that simply "dont fit" or, are not logically equal to the other pice that actually belongs.
Perhaps this is why there is so much discusion the topic. Everyone trying to figure out where their repsective piece goes.

Some Christians believe in what is known as Universalism. They believe that eventually God will bring everyone into his presence, and they use this verse as biblical support for that belief:

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

It is more widely accepted by most Christians that there is Predestination/predetermination. Meaning that God (being Omnisciencent) already knows who will make it, and he ensures that all who can will get the chance:

Rom 9:13-18 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

As to those who died before Christ, this is specifically why the majority of Christians believe that Christ “descended into hell”, so he could free those who would believe in him but were already dead. This is called the Harrowing of Hell.

Its should also be noted that what most folks today consider to be hell, does not in fact exist in the Bible. If you pull up a Strong’s Concordance, you’ll see that there are many other words used in the bible, most simply meaning “the grave”. Where most peoples concept of hell comes from is actually Dark Ages to Medieval folklore based on things such as Dante’s Inferno.

I never understood the whole we have free will but yet we are told we have to believe? How is that free will?

[edit on 18-3-2008 by Buddyweiser]

Originally posted by mcarlso
reply to post by Wilsonfrisk

 

I need to resepectfully disagree with your concept that because religion is based on faith, no particular religion cannot be more logical than the next. Faith is the belief in things not seen, and the hope in things that are true.
Truth encompasses all. Truth, by its nature cannot have mulitple meanings. It should be mentioned however that multiple meanings, consisting of singular truths, may be combined into an ultimate "truth."
Consider a puzzle. Each piece has its resepective place. As more and more of the pieces are put into the place "the bigger picture" begins to expose itself. In putting together this puzzle, there are going to be some puzzles that simply "dont fit" or, are not logically equal to the other pice that actually belongs.
Perhaps this is why there is so much discusion the topic. Everyone trying to figure out where their repsective piece goes.

I don't think I disagree with what you are saying here, though much of it I don't understand at all (your English is not so bad, but this is a difficult subject to put into words).

Truth is truth, and there are not variant truths. However, a persons personal spiritual journey is an individual searching, and thus what each individual comes up with as answers for their own selves will not be uniform.

The simple analogy is that of one size not fitting all.

I do believe there are universal truth that run through all religions, and even some of the cults. I think you said something about this.

To the original poster:
My personal research has often led me to ask the same question. Thus far, the most commonly-proffered answer to your question (Why is your faith superior to mine?) is: "Because my faith says so."

I am currently yet to find a different (or acceptable) answer.

An amusing -- and not intended as offensive -- analogy about faith:

In an attempt to cover his feces, a certain cat I know will claw at everything around his litter-box; everything but the litter, which actually conceals the odor. Even if one occasionally interrupts his clawing and properly covers his deeds with the litter, the cat will sometimes maintain his clawing, perhaps confident that it accomplishes his wishes, and/or perhaps that the interrupting human is merely a nuisance.

Can you blame the cat for his perspective? Of course not: to him, it is enough that when he returns, the litter-box shows no evidence of his last visit. Since he doesn't understand the 'odor-absorbing' properties of the litter, he ignores it and focuses instead on his clawing act, which likely feels rewarding to him (he'll claw at everything else), and may be a means to an end (i.e. catness removal). Furthermore, a communication barrier prevents me from elaborating my perspective to the cat, so it's not his fault that he is unaware; the words on a box of litter are made for humans, not cats. Therefore, he is not stupid, but merely outside his 'element.'

If there is a perspective out there that definitively negates everyone else's perspective, I would like to encounter it.

Okay...first of all the whole concept of pre-destination was introduced by a man named Marthin Luther, after his long struggle with sin..you can look it up. Secondly, some ppl say God is this, God is that..I'd like to just scrap the word "God" altogether becuz it bears an unfavorable, domineering tone.

My point is the term "god" does not imply the Creator of all, because "The Creator" is much more mysterious and beyond our mental ability to conceive. All religions have fragments of truth but cannot lead to spiritual liberation because they have been sabotaged at the hands of man over many generations, they teach "us" dependency on something/someone outside of ourselves. And ultimately use fear "hell" to keep us within boundaries of control.

The Creator gave us lungs to breathe, eyes to see, brains to think, and instructions within within our souls of the unlimited potential of the human spirit, true liberation/evolution comes from taking responsibility for yourself and never give your power away to any person church or institution. When Jesus said: "ye are gods and children of the most high" he gave a hint of this. WE ARE GODS. That means we are creators of our experiences. So let them be loving, positive ones, hell has no place in our lives, it is just fear of the unknown that makes us think so.

My concluding statement is this ALL religions preach love but also Fear(Hell, fire etc) ...IMO The Creator is a benevolent "force" that supports and sustains us all and we must reach a level of spiritual maturity where we can think for ourselves and let go of fear before we can truly begin to understand how we can bring heaven on earth and how to live peaceful, loving lives we were all called for.

Life is a journey and some people move faster than others but we are all going to the same destination, we are all equally loved by The Creator and endowed with the ability to think/reason and overcome any circumstances, just become "like a child again" curious, open minded, hold no judgment, a student in the uni-ver-sity of earth lol, be willing to learn and the answers will come.

Peace & infinite blessings!

reply to post by InTheFlow


Actually you are quite incorrect about how old that the concept of predestination is, Luther was an Augustinian Monk and most likely came in contact with the idea from his writings:

Augustine of Hippo marks the beginning of a system of thought that denies free will and affirms that salvation needs an initial input by God in the life of every person. While his early writings affirm that God's predestinating grace is granted on the basis of his foreknowledge of the human desire to pursue salvation.

Mentioning that Luther had a problem with Obsessive Compulsive disorder, and his inability to be a prefect Christian, has no bearing on what the man accomplished, it seems to simply be another attempt at putting down a type of Christianity. Luther made a huge contribution in allowing man to break away from Roman Catholic Tradition and go back to what was actually contained in the bible itself.

In addition, it is logically impossible to have an Omnisciencent God, and yet deny that there is predestination. Not only is it mentioned in the verse I quoted above, but also in other verses throughout the Bible. Obviously, God has a plan, and each of us has some part to play in that plan. Where that plan ultimately leads, whether it ends up being a Universalist type ending or not, should prove to be quite amazing.

If the bible is true (the ancient texts make several statements regarding a horrific lake of fire which was created for the devil) then it simply is not a voting matter, as apparently there would be a Supremely higher and massively more detailed blueprint to reality than is generally contemplated.

If the bible is not true, then it still would appear to not really matter what anyone thinks, ultimately, since no one will actually have to deal with it.

reply to post by OptionToChoose


The problem with the lake of fire is that Revelations is not intended to be read in a literal fashion. For example how do you explain this if its literal:

Rev 20:14 And death and hell (Hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Are death and Hades people or angles?

Originally posted by defcon5
reply to post by OptionToChoose

 

The problem with the lake of fire is that Revelations is not intended to be read in a literal fashion. For example how do you explain this if its literal:

Rev 20:14 And death and hell (Hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Are death and Hades people or angles?

They appear to be beings of some sort, but with slight apology I must deny my omniscience regarding this . The Grim Reaper is a fairly acceptable symbol of the reality of death, but can we say that such a thing is not a near-top-level consciousness? If so, could not also Hades be the same type of consciousness, a self-aware state of existence, if you will, which torments souls that wind up there? If "impossible," may I know why?

I'm not making any statements on this as final truth, as I simply do not have these answers . . I don't know anyone who does on earth, tho that level of knowledge could exist someplace. But I certainly would not base my acceptance or denial of such complex study on a few yet unknown details. Perhaps you might be the one to whom these answers would be revealed to share with others if you dig deeper into it . . .

My understanding of The Revelation of St. John is that the majority of it is to be taken literally, and understood from beginning to end chronologically. But literarily speaking, the Bible -- particularly end-time Prophecy -- is almost like studying physics. It's just not a simple matter at all, there are few short, quick answers to give to someone who has not already spent a few good years on the matter. One needs the OT book of Daniel, Zacharia, Isaiah, Psalms, Joel, the NT books of the Gospels, Acts, the Apostle Paul's writings (most sent from jail!) Jude, ...really all of the NT along with Revelation to even begin comprehending this particular puzzle.

Specific questions like you posed are simple to respond to, but that only goes so far, as the discussion is going to eventually move into areas which require answers given in another part of the Bible for efficient sense-making.

Maybe God broke it up that way on purpose? . . .

Just another example of falsities and contradictions in the Bible.

"God is forgiving and loves all his children... buuut when we say 'forgiving' we actually mean merciless, and when we say 'all' we actually mean just those of God's children who have submitted themselves."

My spirituality doesn't demand or scare, and for that reason its not a religion and is not comparable with the major religions of the world. I don't think there's anyway a Christian can effectively answer the question posed in the OP other than to say that the Bible is partially flawed or to say that their faith is the only true one. And of course, lots of Christians, Muslims and Jews will staunchly believe that their faith is the only true one but never admit to such arrogance.

reply to post by OptionToChoose


The book is written in a ton of metaphorical prophetic symbolism, based on earlier prophetic writings, so it’s not to be taken as literal. As to its linier writing, that has also been disputed and there are arguments which show that sections of it may be cyclic and that it jumps around in history. There are definite areas of it that deal with the end times, then it will go backwards and talk about something dealing with Rome, which has already happened.

Every Religion for the most part has a hell, christianity isn't to be singled out.

Greek Mythology has Hades
Buddhism has Three Hells
In Hinduism, Garuda Purana gives a detailed account on Hell
Islam, obviously has the same concept of Hell as Christianity
Mayans Believed in a hell with 9 pits
Summerians had Arura
Norse had Hell as a realm, called Hel
Judaism actually just has non-existence