Obama abusing the masonic sign of faith

Originally posted by antimacon

born 22 December 1885, Central America, died 2 July 1949 Cyprus
en.wikipedia.org...

That's mostly 20th century

OK, we'll call it early 20th century. However, I can find no reference to a "Sign of Faith" in Masonic ritual at that period, nor a ritualistic gesture that involves pointing the finger. Also, obviously, Masonic signs are technically secret, and are therefore not given in public. They are used for ritualistic and dramatic instruction.

[i

Well since you are a freemason you are forbidden to name any living freemasons

Where did you get that from? There has never been such a requirement, and Masons, especially in the USA, are very forthcoming about their membership. We wear Masonic rings, ties, lapel pins, and have Masonic decals on the backs of our cars. Famous Masons are biographed cotinuously in Masonic journals and books. It isn't difficult at all to determine who is a Mason.

or to divulge the secrets of the orders, so your opinion is biased to say the least.

I'm not sure even what "opinion" I voiced. And Ward, by the way, was also obligated to secrecy concerning the esoterics of the fraternity.

To be completely honest, I have not read the book you listed, so I'm not quite sure what Ward said in it concerning the supposed finger pointing sign. But the various versions rituals of Masonry, both English and American, have been in print for a very long time, and nowhere have I ever seen any such sign alluded to.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by antimacon

Well since you are a freemason you are forbidden to name any living freemasons

Where did you get that from? There has never been such a requirement, and Masons, especially in the USA, are very forthcoming about their membership. We wear Masonic rings, ties, lapel pins, and have Masonic decals on the backs of our cars. Famous Masons are biographed cotinuously in Masonic journals and books. It isn't difficult at all to determine who is a Mason.

You are allowed to name YOURSELF as a freemason but you are forbidden to divulge the names of other masons

Originally posted by Masonic Light
To be completely honest, I have not read the book you listed, so I'm not quite sure what Ward said in it concerning the supposed finger pointing sign. But the various versions rituals of Masonry, both English and American, have been in print for a very long time, and nowhere have I ever seen any such sign alluded to.

Ok , here are some interesting drawings taken from Richardson's monitor of freemasonry:




Correct me if i'm wrong, but I see a lot of "just pointing the finger" here.
According to JSM Ward terminology, I see the sign of silence, the sign of praise, the sign of the heart and the sign of preservation (pointing upward). Admitely, the sign of faith (pointing horizontaly) is not depicted but you get my drift.
As for the issue of secrecy, masons needs a special permission from "higher up" in order to discuss the masonic secrets. Of course JSM ward's work was intended for other freemasons and not the public at large.


[edit on 28-2-2008 by antimacon]

[edit on 28-2-2008 by antimacon]

Originally posted by antimacon


You are allowed to name YOURSELF as a freemason but you are forbidden to divulge the names of other masons

This is not true. I can freely name anyone I want as a Mason, as can all other Masons.

Ok , here are some interesting drawings taken from Richardson's monitor of freemasonry:

Correct me if i'm wrong, but I see a lot of "just pointing the finger" here.
According to JSM Ward terminology, I see the sign of silence, the sign of praise, the sign of the heart and the sign of preservation (pointing upward). Admitely, the sign of faith (pointing horizontaly) is not depicted but you get my drift.

I haven't read that monitor either. One of the signs given (2 fingers up) seems identical to the Boy Scouts sign of fidelity, so it is possibly authentic, although not currently in use in the USA. It should be noted that the signs are not really universal, and vary widely, especially in different countries.

As for the issue of secrecy, masons needs a special permission from "higher up" in order to discuss the masonic secrets.

This is not correct. Freemasons do not recognize any "higher ups" in the sense you're talking about. Freemasons elect officials, who serve fixed terms, and then go back to being regular members. But none of those folks have the authority to reveal any secrets to non-members, nor give anyone else permission to do so, since all Masons are under the same obligation.

Of course JSM ward's work was intended for other freemasons and not the public at large.

It wouldn't matter. It is forbidden to print any of the Masonic secrets, whether it be for other Masons or otherwise, under the penalty of expulsion. Since Ward was not expelled, I can offer 2 possible conclusions:

1. He printed signs that were no longer in use, so there was no real reason to keep them secret anymore. Albert Pike did sort of the same thing when he published the original Scottish Rite rituals in "The Magnum Opus".

2. Ward was pulling his readers' legs, and just made it up himself.

I would assume it is more likely that number 1 is correct, but who knows.

I've done gestures like that myself.

Pointing: Done it.

Devil horns: When i was a metalhead (and a pretty hardcore one:lol.

Fist: Done it.

Palm to the heart: Done it.

Pyramid: Done it.

Ok sign: Done it.

Hand shake: Do i have to say if i've done it?

Looking upwards: Done it.

Eyeglass thing: Done it while wearing my sunglasses.

Hand on tie etc: I haven't done that with a tie but as a gesture,yeah,i've done that too.

I'm not a mason.


About the media getting those poses.A simple pose from (let's say) the politicians would be pretty dull,like not waving etc.
Imagine yourself as the owner of a news paper.You'd choose a photo of a politician doing simply nothing or a photo of him doing something,anything.

Other than that,politicians are always trying to convince people that they'll do "this and that" so,making gestures while they're talking makes them look more real,that they actually believe in what they're saying.

Maybe some of em are Masons,who knows,but the gestures are out of that picture.


Excuse me for what i'm gonna say but i'd preffer to trust anyone who does those gestures,no matter the reason (if there's one ) rather someone who says the things you're saying.

Forgive me but i'm just being honest.You seem like you're turning normal things into "evil" for reasons uknown.

Originally posted by antimacon
You are allowed to name YOURSELF as a freemason but you are forbidden to divulge the names of other masons

Where in the world did you ever hear THAT? That is a new one on me. My Lodge prints a photo-graph of the newly installed officers every year. My Grand Lodge has a web-site (as do most Grand Lodges) with pictures and names of the officers. I assure you they are living and I assure you they are Masons.

Here are just a few:

www.indianafreemasons.com...


www.hawaiifreemason.org...


www.scottishrite.org...

The list goes on.

Ever heard of Roy Clark or Little Jimmy Dickens? (Both country music stars?) They're both Masons. How about Trent Lott (Senator)? Mason

There's no secret as to who we are. Never has been.

As ML said, we wear rings, lapel pins, have emblems on our automobiles. We put up signs denoting our meeting place/time and it's easy to sit outside on meeting night and watch us go into or come out of the building. We don't even cover our faces so as not to be recognized.

Honestly, we are a good group of guys.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by antimacon


well that's the terminology that author JSM Ward uses in his book.
Maybe you could tell us the name the masons use for this sign then?

Well, I'll say this:

Since Obama is not a Mason, I would have to say that he is not using a Masonic sign.

Hello Appak/Kappa, would you like to explain MasonicLights story, when MasonicLight says that Obama is not a Mason?.



[edit on 28-2-2008 by Jn]

Originally posted by antimacon

Well since you are a freemason you are forbidden to name any living freemasons or to divulge the secrets of the orders, so your opinion is biased to say the least.

Did you invent that theory? As I have never heard that until now. Just to disprove your statement, one of the members of mylodge who I speak with frequently is named Herb Boyd, he is a past Grand Master for the State of New Jersey in 1982 and this can easily be verified.

Just wanted to add that I like the bottom left photo in your little picture collection.

Originally posted by antimacon
Ok , here are some interesting drawings taken from Richardson's monitor of freemasonry:

Correct me if i'm wrong, but I see a lot of "just pointing the finger" here.

I don't mean to be a killjoy or anything, but none of these images are of the finger-pointing-forward variety that you included in our opening post.

The fact that I've never heard of the Sign of Faith, or ever seen a finger-pointing-forward type sign in freemasonry is just incidental. As ML says, there is much variety among freemasons of different geographies or disciplines, but IMO you haven't demonstrating anything one way or the other with the little mason men images.

Admitely, the sign of faith (pointing horizontaly) is not depicted but you get my drift.

Do you think that might be because it doesn't exist?

As for the issue of secrecy, masons needs a special permission from "higher up" in order to discuss the masonic secrets.

Could you reference this please, as it is news to this freemason too?

Originally posted by Jn
Hello Appak/Kappa,

Well hello Jn/nJ.

(Oh, wait, I see. You think you've discovered some secret, but alas, you haven't for appak has nothing to do with any kappa....despite the fact that it does spell that in reverse. But for your information APPAK means "Angela, Patricia, Paul, Andrew and Katie"...my wife, my daughter, my two sons and my Labrador retriever) Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

What does Jn mean? Or is it Nj?

Now, on to business.

would you like to explain MasonicLights story, when MasonicLight says that Obama is not a Mason?.

Firstly, are you suggesting that ML is lying?

Or perhaps you simply do not comprehend what he's written? I'm confused as to what you want ME to "explain" and why. Why not ask Masonic Light to explain if you are confused.

We Masons do not hide our membership. In fact, we're quite proud of being Masons....and Obama is not a Mason. Some claim that he is, but there is a group of otherwise intelligent individuals who claim that the earth is flat, too. I've even heard of groups that claim the holocaust never happened and that man has never walked on the moon. It's had to argue with non-thinking people, ya' know?

Anyway, to make a long story short, what ML meant when he said that Obama is not a Mason is that Obama is not a Mason. See?

Be glad to help out with any other questions you or others might have. I don't have all the answers, but will endeavor to help find them. ML, would probably be glad to help as well as other Masons on the list!

Be well.

[edit on 28-2-2008 by Appak]

I was having dinner with my family the other day. My 1 year old niece was sitting in her high chair. Somebody brought out a cake and placed in on the dinner table. She made a similar sign Obama made towards the cake.

This sickened me! You masons better fess up! You already indoctrinated a 1 year old into your sick perverted cult. This little girl can never grow up normal because she makes masonic gang signs at desserts.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by antimacon

Well since you are a freemason you are forbidden to name any living freemasons or to divulge the secrets of the orders, so your opinion is biased to say the least.

Did you invent that theory? As I have never heard that until now. Just to disprove your statement, one of the members of mylodge who I speak with frequently is named Herb Boyd, he is a past Grand Master for the State of New Jersey in 1982 and this can easily be verified.

From the regular grand lodge of Belgium
www.glrb.org...

#12 Every Freemason is free to reveal his own membership to anyone he wants, but he is not allowed to reveal that of another member.

And yes, the regular grand lodge of Belgium is recognized by the others grand lodges of the USA and the rest of the world
www.glrb.org...


[edit on 29-2-2008 by antimacon]

We are not under jurisdiction of the Regular Grand Lodge of Belgium. There are no restrictions on US and Canadian Masons upon revealing the names of Masons.

Obviously, in countries where Freemasons have a history of persecution, more privacy is preferred. But this is not the case here in the good old land of red, white, and blue.

Originally posted by Jn

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Well, I'll say this:

Since Obama is not a Mason, I would have to say that he is not using a Masonic sign.

Hello Appak/Kappa, would you like to explain MasonicLights story, when MasonicLight says that Obama is not a Mason?.

[edit on 28-2-2008 by Jn]

I asked because i had read this popular thread,

"Barack Obama is he a member?"
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by PrinceHall06
Barack Obama is indeed a 32nd degree Prince Hall Mason. This however is not a secret society, unlike Masonry's detractors would have you believe, in as much as Masonic buildings are CLEARLY marked, members readliy identify themselves with rings, bumper stickers, and lapel pins, I would hardly call the Masonic Fraternal Order , a secret society.

Have a read of page 2 of the "Barack Obama is he a member?"
www.abovetopsecret.com...



[edit on 29-2-2008 by Jn]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
We are not under jurisdiction of the Regular Grand Lodge of Belgium. There are no restrictions on US and Canadian Masons upon revealing the names of Masons.

Obviously, in countries where Freemasons have a history of persecution, more privacy is preferred. But this is not the case here in the good old land of red, white, and blue.

Funny that you cannot give me a link to support your claim.
Funny that your story change as you go along.

Originally posted by antimacon


Funny that you cannot give me a link to support your claim.
Funny that your story change as you go along.

Yawn.

There aren't any "links". There's no rule barring revealing the members' names here, and there never has been. Why would there be a link to describe something that doesn't exist?

reply to post by Jn


Obama is not a Mason, nor has he claimed to be one. The poster who claimed to have sat in Lodge with Obama gave neither the name of Obama's Lodge, or the Lodge where he supposedly sat with him.

Both Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are Prince Hall Masons, but no Barack.

reply to post by antimacon

Just on a side note....why do you declare yourself to be an anti-mason?

Originally posted by Masonic Light
reply to post by Jn

 

Obama is not a Mason, nor has he claimed to be one. The poster who claimed to have sat in Lodge with Obama gave neither the name of Obama's Lodge, or the Lodge where he supposedly sat with him.

Both Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are Prince Hall Masons, but no Barack.

And how exactly did you come to that conclusion?

There's a lot of secret societies out there besides Prince Hall that Obama could be a member of.

Originally posted by antimacon
There's a lot of secret societies out there besides Prince Hall that Obama could be a member of.

Then why are you posting masonic (antique wood cuts apparently) pictures and pictures of supposed Gang signs to put this guy down?

I'm not a mason and I do not like any candidates for office. This whole sham theory is just not making sense to me anymore.

What I clearly stated to begin with was that you step off for a while and get a book covering all forms of sign language for the deaf. That was a BIG Clue as to what these people are doing in the pictures. They are appealing the Handicapable as well as those with hearing.

Stop and think about if you are going to offend the handicapped. They read here too and are certainly going to be offended.


Where is my ignore button....

Lady and gentlemen, this is the sign of the Grand Pontif taken from the book
"Scoth Rite masonry"

books.google.com...-PA26,M1
PAGE 26

Checkmate.


[edit on 29-2-2008 by antimacon]