Do people who aren’t Christian deserve be tortured in hell?

Originally posted by saint4God
We both know 'hellfire doctrine' does not ignore adam's punishment being death.

so adam was aware that he was going to roast in hell?

We also know 'hellfire doctrine' does not ignore death being a form of sleep.

so you feel like you being burned alive when you sleep? or are you implying that those in hell are not dead?

Now we're crossing the bridge into absurdity in ignoring scripture itself and making baseless assumptions so I don't see a point in continuing the discussion.

so you never read psalms?

146:[4] His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish

i suppose in some footnote it says where he goes after that right?

Originally posted by miriam0566
if bad people are in hell to be tortured for all eternity, why did jesus pay a visit? why is there going to be a resurection of the bad as well as the good?

You know this question is already answered in the Bible.

no i dont, could you please explain this to me?

It is not that nonchristian deserve hell it is all people deserve hell. But all how put thier trust on the one who has recieved the punish ment fothen will not go to hell

reply to post by andre18


Yes ,all non christians are going to endure and suffer a ghastly,horrible fate for not unquestioningly conforming to the quite outlandish claims of the bible.
Not to worry though-all christians are also going to endure and suffer a ghastly horrible fate for having the audacity not to mindlessly accept the doctrine of another abrahamic cult/sect,islam-so it all works itself out in the end.
Heres George Carlin who (quite succinctly) puts it into perspective:



[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

been baptized twice, RCC, have a 'Christian first name'...

but i'm essentially Pagan, strongly influenced with shaminism,
since i do not construct a lifestyle or belief system
which encompases hell/heaven nor a redeemer/savior of a spiritual self...
those 'realities' do not exist in my universe

heaven, hell, purgatory, jesus, guru... all these are mentaly organized 'bricks' to construct a mental/spiritual Temple,
which other architects of religion have designed for the followers.


the physical bio-sphere is my Temple, nature and internal DNA are my religious architects...

christians by removing themselves from earth-nature-paganism are already in a self designed and perpetuating hell...living in a belief system that is divorced from the material world instead of mastering the material world

Among other places in the Bible it is told :



In the book of revelations we are told that a lot of people will be forbidden to enter the city of Gold. Or Gods temple.
Some people will be left to wonder outside the walls and never to enter. Even the once who know of God. What dose God mean by that?????

God clearly tells us that we cant serve two masters and still Winn.

You will serve with the master you worship. The Bible also talk about that. Thats why God wants us to tell others the true word of God. So no one will walk in the dark with out knowing. God gave us the job of helping others.

Who is good and who is bad is not up to us to judge. You might not think your a bad person. But that is not for you to decide. Your opinion of your self and you past actions will be set straight by the butchered lamb "Jesus".

You should really re-think your past and present before you start to complain.

What have you done in your life to deserve heaven as a gift!

And is that what God wanted you to do.



[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

reply to post by tankthinker


I am a Christian, a follower of Jesus Christ, and I do not want to see anyone in pain or being hurt. But, I did not make the rules because I am not the creator. God, is the creator of all of us and He also does not wish for any of His children to perish into hell. We do have the gift or curse of FREE WILL and on that will make our bed so to speak.

God does not leave us, ever, He is always waiting for us to come back to Him. He wants us to love Him because we choose to not because we HAVE to. So, the decision really comes back in your court, doesn't it?

Shalom,
Grandma

reply to post by St Udio


I am sure Jesus will be thrilled to hear your ideas when you see him.
Be sure to tell him that you don't believe in him.

Grandma

reply to post by andre18

If you believe in God then you must also believe in Satan. Satan is the evil in this world. He is the prince of the world. Jesus came so that as our perfect blood sacrifice we would have peace with the Father. Only through the grace of Christ do we have peace with God.

It is your choice what and who you choose to follow. No one is forcing any decision on you other than what you make for yourself.

But, please. do not make God sound like he is unloving, not compasionate, not merciful, and not filled with grace.

Peace,
Grandma

Originally posted by Grandma
If you believe in God then you must also believe in Satan.

I disagree. Many religions who have deities have no entity that is "evil."

But what is "evil," and why do we consider Satan as evil? Evil is going against the will of God. It is sinning, since a sin is essentially breaking the rule of God.

Satan went against God's will, and yet Satan was created to fulfill God's will/purpose, where God knew exactly what would happen should Satan be created. Did Satan fulfill God's will - to go against God's will?

Does this also mean that God is the creator of evil? Yes.

But does it make God evil? No. To be evil, one would have to go against God's will, and since God does not go against his own will, he is not evil.

Satan is the evil in this world.

Now to your next point. Satan is evil of this world, but not the only evil. When we sin, are we considered evil? No, because we believe in redemption through forgiveness. It is not through our sin that makes us evil, but rather our act of not seeking forgiveness.

Since Satan is God's creation, and we are to love all of God's creations, does that mean that we must also love Satan?

He is the prince of the world.

Satan is the prince of the world? To be prince, one would have to come after a succession from a king, correct? Are you implying that Satan has ownership of this world? Why would God make Satan ruler of this world?

Jesus came so that as our perfect blood sacrifice we would have peace with the Father.

What did Jesus sacrifice? How is it a sacrifice if he resurrects himself three days later? If I "sacrifice" $10,000 to a charity and then three days ask for the money back from them, was it a sacrifice on my behalf?

Only through the grace of Christ do we have peace with God.

If by "we," you mean trinitarian Christians, then yes, that is your belief. If you mean 99% of all other faiths in the world, then I would disagree. Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi. He preached Judaism, not Christianity. It was only after Jesus's ascension into heaven that Christianity formed. The term "Christian" was used against his followers, to mean "cult/follower of Christ." Christ itself is not Jesus's name (neither is Jesus). Both are Greek words. Christ means "annointed" and has been used to refer to many people. Jesus is Greek for Zezues (The-god).

It is your choice what and who you choose to follow. No one is forcing any decision on you other than what you make for yourself.

I agree. The greatest gift humanity has is free will. The choice to do good or bad, wrong or right, sin or forgiveness. It is up to the individual to decide what is wrong or right, and who's wrong or right to believe.

But, please. do not make God sound like he is unloving, not compasionate, not merciful, and not filled with grace.

God is the most loving, most compassionate, most merciful, and most graceful, but that does not mean that he always shows these traits to his enemies. Through out the Torah, Bible, and Quran, God has been angered by groups and individuals and has shown no mercy to them, because he knew their will.

[edit on 18-11-2008 by DJMessiah]

My Belief:

1. There is a God. Creator of All. Omni-potent. Omni-present. All-Loving.
2. There is no Satan. (evil is the measure of distance from God)
3. Everybody goes to Hell.

Hell I believe is a temporary (comparative to eternity) transitional stage every soul experiences during their ascension to a re-uniting with God. Where they are purged of 'sin'...and their attachment to the material world.

I am a PanENdeist with my own set of beliefs.

[edit on 18-11-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

Originally posted by jdposey
reply to post by theindependentjournal

 

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (revelation 20:1-15)

These scriptures are pretty clear. If you take the account of Lazarus and the rich man

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

It seems it is hard to analyze this place away as not being actual "flames." I know people do that, but scripture clearly lays it out as it is.

thi sall coming from a book written by MEN.
Men that tortured anyone that didn't believe in it.

it's a control mechansm.

it was used to corrall the population of Europe to bend to the will of the ruling class, WHICH, I might point out.. were NOT following the bible.

I can't get over how brainwashed people get from this freaking book.

that book IS the deception.. it's telling you RIGHT in between the lines. the HUMAN AUTHORS of it are laughing at you as you take every word literally.

FOOLS.

man I feel sorry for you.


-

reply to post by prevenge


What about the "bible belt" in Texas, America. There are soo many "brainwashed" Americans, AND Don't forget about the ONE-BILLION catholics.

reply to post by gordonwest


Catholics would be considered Christian too, as they formed the first Christian Church

What I do not understand is if god is perfect then why did he make imperfect humans? If he had not made a mistake in our making then Christ would not have had to die a horrid death on the cross to begin with. If god makes mistakes is it really a god? Is he just sadistic and wanted to see his son(self) die as a human on the cross? Did he not understand our sinful nature when he made us? If he did then why did he make us this way?

Eh maybe a creator made what we see and know but not the one described in any human book (including the KJV). The entire story is as if some baby made man that did not live the way he wanted us to so he smoked millions of us for sining then made Christ to save some of us from hell...

Why/how could a perfect loving god make a hell or allow a Devil to exist in the first place. Does he have a big ole 100 inch plasma and watch us like a TV for kicks?

Why did god stop talking to us after christ? Is the bible finished and if not then who is allowed to continue it? Who decided who could write a book way back then?

Is scary that most humans believe in invisible friends.

Originally posted by Xeven
What I do not understand is if god is perfect then why did he make imperfect humans?

he didnt. freewill is perfect. however man themselves chose to sever their connection with god.

Originally posted by Xeven
What I do not understand is if god is perfect then why did he make imperfect humans? If he had not made a mistake in our making then Christ would not have had to die a horrid death on the cross to begin with.

God is perfect, but we aren't. If we were perfect, then we would be God.

There was no mistake in creating humanity, as all of creation will serve a purpose, whether they're human, plant, animal, earth, water, etc.

What makes us imperfect is that we sin.

reply to post by miriam0566


Ok so according to my old church we are sinful in nature. SO is heav en a place where freewill is taken away? If no, then how can it be heaven, if it is full of potential sinners.

When god made us with "free will" he had to know we would sin right? He had to know Christ would have to die for our sins right? I mean a God knows all the future and past right? So why the sadistic nature of the human condition and the route to heaven?

Why would an all powerful and knowing god make sin to begin with if he is the decider of what everything is? If he created everything then he also created sin.

If there is a true battle with Satan could Satan win? Does Satan have a shot at being in charge?

If he wants peace and love why send his unrepentant loved ones to hell rather than snap his magic finger and recreate his loved creations into sinless beings or does he not love all? Why would he want to give something he loves pain or does he not have control of us and the Universe any longer?

Originally posted by Xeven
reply to post by miriam0566

 

When god made us with "free will" he had to know we would sin right? He had to know Christ would have to die for our sins right? I mean a God knows all the future and past right? So why the sadistic nature of the human condition and the route to heaven?

Why would an all powerful and knowing god make sin to begin with if he is the decider of what everything is? If he created everything then he also created sin.

If there is a true battle with Satan could Satan win? Does Satan have a shot at being in charge?

If he wants peace and love why send his unrepentant loved ones to hell rather than snap his magic finger and recreate his loved creations into sinless beings or does he not love all? Why would he want to give something he loves pain or does he not have control of us and the Universe any longer?

Good questions there. If we took away the belief of God as an all powerful being who knows past and future, etc, then we would leave room for a clearer perspective not tainted with archaic symbology, myth and Judgment.

Imagine what we call God as just the Aware, Creative Energy of our Universe. Something that diversified itself in order to explore it's abilities... much like we do when growing up.

Why would it care what an infinitely small part of itself was doing? Do we care what one skin cell on our arm is doing while we grow and learn about ourselves?

It would not know it's own future, because it hadn't reached it yet. It would only experience things as they occur, again, just like we do.

For God to already know what is in the future... all of the future, would be an absolute waste of Awareness and Experience. And surely if there is an all powerful being it is not about to waste it's existence?

Didn't Jesus say it is Us who are the sons of the living father? That when we come to know ourselves then we become known, and we will then know that the kingdom of heaven is within us and without us? What does this tell us?

It tells me that each of us are small portions of God, the awareness of our universe that we are created from. And, it tells me that we have everything we need inside us already, and we can also recognise it in the world around us.

Many people can see God in the world around us, the trees, animals, the earth itself, etc. So why not look inside to find it there also? Why not come to know ourselves?

I do not think Jesus died to save anything or anyone. In fact, I am sure that was an anecdote provided by Saul who became Paul, after the alleged death of Jesus the Man, as a way to gain further power and Kudos when he gained control of the fledgling "church".

If Jesus said we are the sons of the living father, then that tells us he was not the only begotten son of God.

Personally I cannot simply believe in the disinformation of their being some entity called Satan. For me this is more about controlling what you think, and how you act, than it being a reality. Although in the lower realms there are many beings that choose to shun the Light, yet none would be what is called Satan.. the equal power to God.

We love the concept of Duality don't we? Won't we get a shock when we finally realise Duality is only a belief and of itself does not exist, just like Satan, or an all powerful being named God.

If I'm wrong then I am happy to go to hell if such a place could ever exist in any reality, as some of my old friends would be there by now and it would be good to catch up with them again.

Two edits, well it is late here in Oz.

[edit on 19-11-2008 by Tayesin]

[edit on 19-11-2008 by Tayesin]

your entire belief is built on false presumed foundations

Originally posted by Xeven
Ok so according to my old church we are sinful in nature. SO is heav en a place where freewill is taken away? If no, then how can it be heaven, if it is full of potential sinners.

heaven had sinners. satan was from heaven. so were the demons.

When god made us with "free will" he had to know we would sin right? He had to know Christ would have to die for our sins right? I mean a God knows all the future and past right? So why the sadistic nature of the human condition and the route to heaven?

your assuming that god´s original purpose regarding man was to test through suffering and then go to heaven. it wasnt. mankind was to live forever on earth and take care of it. death was a punishment for sinning.

second, yes god would have known about the possibility of sinning before creating freewill. but thats the point, god doesnt want robots. he wants people who WANT to be close to him

Why would an all powerful and knowing god make sin to begin with if he is the decider of what everything is? If he created everything then he also created sin.

this logic has been refuted time and time again.

knives are used to cut food. they are also used to kill people. does this mean the knife company is guilty of murder?

If there is a true battle with Satan could Satan win? Does Satan have a shot at being in charge?

can a sand castle hold back the sea?

If he wants peace and love why send his unrepentant loved ones to hell rather than snap his magic finger and recreate his loved creations into sinless beings or does he not love all? Why would he want to give something he loves pain or does he not have control of us and the Universe any longer?

first off hellfire is not biblical.

second, god has to destroy unrepentant ones exactly because he wants peace. unrepentant sinners dont want peace, they want whats good only for them.

you cant ask for a world without pain and then go out and cause pain.

I appreciate your work on the thread, but did want to clarify a point:

Originally posted by miriam0566
first off hellfire is not biblical.

"But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." - Matthew 5:23

"It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell." - Matthew 18:9

"It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." - Mark 9:43

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." - Matthew 25:41

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." - Jude 1:7

There's more surely, these are a few more poignant examples.

[edit on 19-11-2008 by saint4God]