Thomas...

He actually walked with god, spoke with him face to face, he watched him perform miracles, raise the dead and cast out demons but when it came to his last great miracle raising himself from the dead, he didn’t believe it.

Even when he was setting there talking with Jesus face to face he didn’t believe it, I’m talking about St. Thomas, probably the most famous skeptic in the entire bible. After seeing all the miracles that Jesus performed and knowing that Jesus said that he would come back from the dead, even setting there watching Jesus and talking with him face to face was not enough to convince Thomas that it was real or that Jesus had actually retuned from the grave.

Thomas had to touch Jesus first, he had to feel the wounds in his hands, feel the hole in his side, he had to verify to himself that this was the real deal, that this was the real Jesus.
Now….if Thomas had been born just one generation later or one generation earlier or if he just called in sick that day so he could stay home and morn the death of his believed friend, he would have died and gone to hell as a non believer.

Do you think that Thomas would have taken the word of the other disciples as proof that Jesus was real and that Jesus had returned from the grave? He didn’t take the word from Jesus himself, he had to physically touch him first.

Do you think Thomas would have taken the word of a book written 2000 years before he was born? No...diffidently not, he required a much higher degree of proof before he could accept the resurrection as a real event.

If Thomas was alive today, he would be an atheist because he wouldn’t accept someone else’s word as proof of an event, he wouldn’t even accept your own word unless you could prove it.

So here’s my question: why was Thomas given such an explicit amount of proof and then why does god now refuse to give the same level of proof to others who like Thomas are unable to believe on something less. Why then am I going to be cast to hell for requiring the same amount of evidence and why was Tomas given that evidence when god refuses to give it to everyone else?


[edit on 6-1-2008 by andre18]

i must say that is a really good question.

isnt their a theory though that thomas is jesus' twin or brother at least.
ive even heard that the word thomas means twin.
and if thomas is jess' twin then why didnt he have the same power as jesus.
sorry im asking more questions here.

i also think that thomas would have been an athiest if he was here today even a scientist because they have the ideals of ''prove it or it isnt real''.

isnt their a theory though that thomas is jesus' twin or brother at least. ive even heard that the word thomas means twin.

I've never heard of that theory before.......but i thought Jesus naturaly had a brother.....

www.gospelgazette.com...

www.bibletexts.com...

en.wikipedia.org...



[edit on 6-1-2008 by andre18]

reply to post by andre18


what u r talking about is this man called thomas did not believe in jesus then and if he is in this time he would be atheist

but this man was alive 2000 years ago the people were different so u cant compare people from 2000 year time ago to now

Unbelief, itself is not a sin. It is unbelief that leads one to deeper and deeper sin. When I was an unbeliever I walked around in darkness making decisions based on my own stupid understandings. Now I walk in the light of a Biblical context. It is my faith that keeps me from making mistakes I may have otherwise made.

The proof of the Bible's authenticity does actually exist today. The proof is the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. From our modern vantage, we can look back at the pageant of human history and see that Biblical prophecy is perfect. God, himself put this forth as the evidence we should look to when questioning the truth of things. The God of the Bible doesn't expect mankind to just accept the book dogmaticly without any proof. That's a widespread and popular misconception.

The proof of the Bible's authenticity does actually exist today. The proof is the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.

Can you please show me one example of how a 'Biblical prophecy' has come true......just one......

i no of a prophacy from the bible that i think has come true which is the jewish people got land in 1948

which i think says in the old book that they will get it back and they did

As Ronald Reagan would have begun: "Whellllllllllllllllllllll"......

You need to read the rest of that account regarding Thomas and Jesus and pay close, close attention to what Jesus told Thomas in regard to other people like him.

Originally posted by andre18

The proof of the Bible's authenticity does actually exist today. The proof is the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.

Can you please show me one example of how a 'Biblical prophecy' has come true......just one......

Hey Hon. There are thousands but here are some of my favorites that all relate to Israel, or what prophecy watchers refer to as "God's prophetic time clock." These are some of my favorites as they happened in our time so we can see them with our own eyes. Although the historical fulfillment of prophecy is astounding, it is nice to be able to visibly witness the modern fulfillments.

Israel would be reborn in one day in the end times. This happened May 14/15 (depending on your time zone) in 1948. Isaiah was discussing the impossibility of a country being revived in one day into a sovereign nation but modern history shows this happened. The rebirth of 1948 was also prophesied to the very year.

The Jews would slowly be regathered before Israel became a nation again. The process started with the first official Zionist meeting in 1897 followed by the Balfour Declaration of 1917. Jews migrated back to the international territory of Palestine a little at a time (as prophesied by Ezekiel) then declared its sovereignty in one day (as prophesied by Isaiah).

The moment Israel was to become a nation again, it would not be a peaceful time but Israel would immediately be surrounded by enemies. Not only was this fulfilled, the precise coalition of modern Muslim countries was given by name according to their historical territories. We're only waiting for Turkey to switch over and if you keep up with the news, you know even the Pope is telling Turkey to give up on their E.U. application and to instead join the Arab Union.

The entire world would be concerned with Jerusalem and even angered over it. Another thing seen by a casual observance of the news. Why on earth would the whole world give a hoot about a tiny city that is not a world center for anything or a goldmine for natural resources? Well, it is and the Bible said all of this would happen.

The new temple. Some speculate when and how this will occur but we do know the Orthodox Jews are almost ready to go as soon as the location opens up. Watch for it. All of the utensils have already been created and priests are being trained for temple rituals.

The Hebrew language would be revived. The Hebrew language was pretty much as dead as Latin and basically only used for religious rituals. But it is now the national language of Israel.

Not only was Israel to become a united nation again in the end times, it was also to be without a king. Remember, this prophecy astounded those who it was given to as Israel was divided into two sovereign nations at the time and was under the rule of a monarchy. However, they were told it would never be ruled by a king again until the Messiah came in glory (it isn't even a monarchy today nor was it for hundreds of years after this prophecy was given prior to the diaspora) and it is now one country, not two.

The list goes on and on and on. I recently purchased the book "Every prophecy of the Bible" that dissects and explains... er... every prophecy of the Bible and how it was, is, or will be fulfilled. It's truly amazing stuff. There is also a website I was recently shown that documents 101 end times prophecies that have already been fulfilled as well as those that are having the way paved for them to be fulfilled.

[edit on 1/8/2008 by AshleyD]

reply to post by andre18


And now on to your original question. I know the lack of "proof" is frustrating but there is most definitely hardcore evidence. I understand your frustration completely. Before I was a believing Christian, the fact God designed us to be intellectual analytical beings angered me if He then demands we take something on faith. He designed us one way then says we are going to burn in Hell for all eternity if we act contrary to how we were designed? It's not fair!

Or is it? We are told each age is given differing amounts of evidence and responsibility. The OT times were given miraculous proof but were required to rigorously follow the laws in order to obtain blessings and salvation. In NT times, or the age of grace, we are given evidence but told to live by faith and are granted unconditional salvation once we believe (according to some- I'm not sure about the OSAS doctrine but many stand firmly by it). The tribulation era will again have undeniable proof but salvation is no longer guaranteed. For example, you can lose it by taking the mark.

Thomas is a good example of many human hearts, myself included at one time. Even with eye witness testimony and Jesus standing right there in front of him he wanted more proof. But Jesus said blessed are those who believe without having seen. In other words, faith and evidence instead of works and proof are the order of this age.

But let me quickly point something out: What are the three things most humans cite as their lack of belief or for their reason of living a sinful life? They all swear they would believe and follow Him if:

1). God physically proved His existence.
2). God removed the temptation of secular society.
3). God lived among us and ruled so we knew exactly what He wanted instead of depending on man's interpretation.

Quickly read Revelation 20. The people during this time have all three of these yet still rebel against God. Or after the Exodus in the Old Testament. Even with proof they still rebelled. Or the fall of Adam and Eve, the rebellion of the fallen angels, crucifying Jesus when He came, etc. Unfortunately, we're kind of paying for everyone else's mistakes. God knows most don't care about Him even if He is right there or when He has withdrawn His presence.

Is this fair to us? Not in our opinion. But this is the age in which we are assigned to live. We have advantages the other ages didn't have and they had advantages we don't have. Why God set it up this way? No clue! But He did. And if we follow the signs of prophecies, then we know this age is quickly coming to a close. Although there are many ways He reveals Himself to us, Biblical prophecy is my favorite.

The people I truly feel sorry for are those who lived during the Dark Ages. You talk about some hard times when it comes to having faith. No signs, no prophets, and access to the Bible was illegal thanks to the corrupt Catholic church. However, there is so much going on now in our time that we would have to be dense not to see it. I'll go ahead and provide the link for you. (See: HERE).

I don't know why He proves Himself to some through divine encounters and leaves others to only put together the puzzle pieces of evidence. Some people receive repeated proof (but don't be jealous of them- they have more to answer two), some only get one or two, and some are left with the basics of evidence through prophecy, archeology, and textual exegesis. I think it might go back to the Biblical adage "to whom much is given, much is required."

[edit on 1/8/2008 by AshleyD]

ok….here we go…………firstly show me where it says it in the testament where it’s actually said Israel will get it’s own land…I need verses and stuff…provide links…

The rebirth of 1948

… I love this…..

Lets use our minds ok….our brains….. it apparently was written in the old testament which is how many thousands of years old.....easily and logically, anyone can read about a prophecy that is written in the book…..easily, logically anyone can then read the book and then do what is written in the book after it is written……

Think about it like this…..lets say I write something about what will happen 100 years from now…say….a certain type of building gets built….or the people that of the Pagan religion get their own land…then 100 years later someone reads the book who is high up in the UN and makes this a reality….Do you see the logic…..? Because it is written in a book, anyone can fulfill the prophecy just by reading it and simply doing it….How does that make it a miracle….it sounds more like a set of instructions if you ask me….

The more the greater prophecy the greater the miracle……

The entire world would be concerned with Jerusalem and even angered over it. Another thing seen by a casual observance of the news. Why on earth would the whole world give a hoot about a tiny city that is not a world center for anything or a goldmine for natural resources? Well, it is and the Bible said all of this would happen.

The only reason why it’s on the news is because of the wars always going on…you take away the conflict….no one cares about Israel anymore….The same goes for Africa….because of the war always going on….it’s on the news all the time.. War is the only thing we hear coming out of Israel…

The Muslims an the Jews have been fighting for thousands of years…..well…..since at least 400 AD….what you see on the news is just the same religious dog fight that’s been going on since the end of bloody time…..What’s even more humorous…is that when Israel was given to the Jews……as if anyone couldn’t see a war breaking out between those two already….as they’ve been fighting for hundreds upon hundreds of years….it’s like putting two children in a sand box who have been fighting with each other for years and now you want to let them play in the same sand box….WTF….? Do you see the logic……?

The list goes on and on and on. I recently purchased the book "Every prophecy of the Bible" that dissects and explains... er... every prophecy of the Bible and how it was, is, or will be fulfilled. It's truly amazing stuff. There is also a website I was recently shown that documents 101 end times prophecies that have already been fulfilled as well as those that are having the way paved for them to be fulfilled.

I’m still yet to see one ‘prophecy’ from you that’s come true…..just one….not something that can be done by just reading a book…..

You assume that Thomas put his fingers in the holes in Christ's hands and thrust his hand into the wound in Christ's side.

You are incorrect.

John 20

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Where does it say Thomas actually put his fingers and hands to Christ's wounds? It doesn't. He didn't.

Thomas was devastated he didn't die with Christ. That was his plan all along.

John 11

7 Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.

8 His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?

16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.

None of the disciples believed that Christ would rise from the dead.

Matthew 26

31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.

Thomas was so overcome with grief at the loss of Jesus that he went off by himself to deal with his suffering, forsaking even the fellowship of the other apostles. When he finally saw the risen Christ, his only response was "My Lord and my God." That pretty much says it all.

Thomas has gotten a bad rap, undeservedly so. It is the perspective of man that has led to this, not the teachings of Christ. Thomas today would be no atheist, he would be the strongest and most powerful and dedicated of believers.

Originally posted by andre18
ok….here we go…………firstly show me where it says it in the testament where it’s actually said Israel will get it’s own land…I need verses and stuff…provide links…

You apparently didn't see my first link of prophecies that provided exact verses and fulfillments so here are some more. These articles will show you the prophecy, where it is located in the Bible, and how it was fulfilled in our time.

1). End Time prophecies concerning Israel with verses. Click: Here.

2). Dual prophecy fulfilled in the past and now with verses. Click: Here.

3). Specific modern prophecies with verses. Click: Here.

Remember, this is the tip of the iceberg but should be enough for now.

Lets use our minds ok….our brains….. it apparently was written in the old testament which is how many thousands of years old.....easily and logically, anyone can read about a prophecy that is written in the book…..easily, logically anyone can then read the book and then do what is written in the book after it is written……

1). Check out the links I sent. 2). It was not only prophesied to happen, it was prophesied to the year for 1948. I explained the full prophecy in my comment here. If you have questions, read the post a little further down for the answers I gave to others who had questions. If you are still confused about something, just ask. 3). It wasn't just that the rebirth of Israel was to happen but that it was to coincide with over 100 other prophecies at the exact time. I already sent you the link to these prophecies at the end of my second comment to this thread and am posting the link again at the end of this comment.

Think about it like this…..lets say I write something about what will happen 100 years from now…say….a certain type of building gets built….or the people that of the Pagan religion get their own land…then 100 years later someone reads the book who is high up in the UN and makes this a reality….Do you see the logic…..?

I most certainly do, which is why I dismiss most psychics as mumbo jumbo. Anyone can make an educated guess. But we're not talking about a single vague prophecy in the near future. We're talking about multiple specific prophecies all supposed to take place at the same time in the distant future (distant to the prophets of the time, so to speak). Not to mention, the prophecies at the time they were given totally clashed with the current culture. It would be like me saying in 2,000 years, there would be no male/female gender but one gender that can procreate by itself. It was madness to their contemporaries.

Because it is written in a book, anyone can fulfill the prophecy just by reading it and simply doing it….How does that make it a miracle….it sounds more like a set of instructions if you ask me….

Not quite. Some? Yes. All? No. All at the exact same time? Absolutely not.

The only reason why it’s on the news is because of the wars always going on…you take away the conflict….no one cares about Israel anymore….War is the only thing we hear coming out of Israel…

1) It is on the news constantly because everyone in international politics is sticking their nose into it as they most certainly care. 2). Yes, war. Exactly what the Bible said would be happening once Israel was reborn in 1948. Remember, around the time this was written, the Jews were returning to Jerusalem uninterrupted, with the Persian king's consent, in peace. The prophets said the exact opposite would happen in the end times during the second regathering. It made no sense to the current generation.

The Muslims an the Jews have been fighting for thousands of years…..well…..since at least 400 AD…. what you see on the news is just the same religious dog fight that’s been going on since the end of bloody time

Longer than that. Oh, and this prophecy is also in the Bible that the sons of Isaac (the Jews) would be in conflict with the sons of Ishmael (the Arabs) until Jesus comes back... literally. This is true. All throughout history the two have pretty much despised each other. Another point the Bible gets right. No two races have been at it as long as they have nor have had such a famous conflict. Wouldn't you know it, these are the only two races the Bible mentions will clash throughout history.

I’m still yet to see one ‘prophecy’ from you that’s come true…..

Either you have no knowledge of current events or past the point where I can help. I'm not being mean. But to say nothing has been fulfilled is not sound reasoning. So, check out the links I sent. You may change your mind. If not, there's not much I can do. One last time, here is my favorite link. The interesting thing is, is that it is all supposed to happen in the span of one lifetime. If the countdown did start in 1967 or 1948, then you're fixing to see more proof then you ever wanted. Unfortunately, many of us may not still be here to explain it for much longer. See: Here.

Originally posted by andre18
The more the greater prophecy the greater the miracle……

Prophecy and miracle are two very different things.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Unfortunately, many of us may not still be here to explain it for much longer. See: Here.

Those explanations are too much overstretched, Israel-centric, and when I see Rapture. Another evangelic obssession with Israel.

[edit on 9-1-2008 by Vojvoda]

[edit on 9-1-2008 by Vojvoda]

Originally posted by Vojvoda
Those explanations are too much overstretched... Another evangelic obssession with Israel.

I disagree. Many of the prophecies were so detailed and seemed so impossible to us that the prophecies relating to Israel, Babylon, technology, etc., were thought to be metaphorical. It was insane to believe Israel would become a nation again after being dispersed for 2,000 years. No other nation has ever done this. But it literally happened in the exact order it was said it would happen.

Babylon, too, was considered metaphorical but thanks to Saddam and those who took over the project after his death, here comes the literal city of Babylon. So was the revived Roman Empire but now the European Union has been created. So was the destruction that possibly alludes to a nuclear holocaust but now we have the technology.

The list goes on and on. Only a sliver of end time prophecy relates to Israel but I used the prophecies relating to Israel as an example because the original post asked for some examples. Those were from the top of my head.

However, we watch Israel closely because it is "the mother of all signs," in essence. It's not an obsession unless you believe God is obsessive. He said He would prove His power through Israel and that Israel would be a sign as the "age of the gentiles" draws to a close. So, it's not something we pull out of thin air. You'll have to take that up with Him if you thing prophecy is Israel-centric.

And once again (I don't understand how everyone keeps missing this), the "Israel prophecies" were one set of examples I gave and said as clearly as I could there were many, many more. I'm not going to sit here all day and list and explain a couple hundred prophecies when the information is all over the web. If you feel they are Israel-centric, then go look at the other hundreds that aren't. The Bible is approximately 30-40% prophecy. I'm not the only one with access to Google. Run some searches to find what you're looking for. I promise you, it really isn't rocket science.

[edit on 1/9/2008 by AshleyD]

reply to post by Icarus Rising


You should notice that Thomas says in John 20:25 that he will not believe unless he is able to see the holes, and thrust his hand into Jesus' side. When Jesus appears before Thomas, he commands Thomas to do just that (verse 27). Reading the story as if Thomas did exactly as Jesus commanded him to, then declared "My Lord and my God" only after receiving the evidence he required makes the most sense. The Bible doesn't say Thomas obeyed Jesus' command, but it also doesn't say he refused to do as Jesus commanded either.

Whether he touched Jesus, or merely saw him is irrelevant. The point of the question is that Thomas would have died as an unbeliever if Jesus hadn't provided tangible evidence of the resurrection... and then I ask why God would refuse to give equal amounts of evidence to everyone.

Yes, according to the Bible Thomas felt horrible after Jesus died - because he believed he had lost him forever. The Bible also says he COULD NOT believe that Jesus had risen without seeing him for himself. If Thomas was alive today, he COULD NOT believe a 2000 year old story. If he considered the story so absurd that hr couldn't believe first-hand accounts - Thomas definite couldn't believe an account which has been passed down anonimously for hundreds of generations.

If Jesus hadn't appeared to Thomas, he would've never believed in the resurrection - and he would've died and been sent to Hell. If he had been born in any generation before or after Jesus, when it was impossible for him to meet and know Jesus in person, he would never had received the level of evidence which was required to convince him. He wouldn't have been able to believe the stories... he would've died and spent eternity in Hell.

I honestly think you continue to miss the point here. None of the apostles, or anyone else for that matter, believed that Jesus would rise from the dead as he said. The others were huddled behind locked doors in the upper room when Christ appeared in their midst. On the morning of the third day, the women were going to the tomb to anoint the dead body of Jesus with spices and oils. The tomb was empty, for Christ had risen. Praise the Lord!

Thomas' grief and disbelief were so great because his love for and devotion to Jesus were so great. Your contention that he would have been consigned to Hell if he hadn't seen the risen Christ is without merit. The point of his story is belief in Christ must come from within. No one else can make us believe in the risen Christ. We must take the leap of faith ourselves, and accept the Holy Spirit from within. It is an entirely personal matter. Others may lead us to the threshold, but from there we must take the next step in our own faith and belief.

Originally posted by AshleyD
I disagree. Many of the prophecies were so detailed and seemed so impossible to us that the prophecies relating to Israel, Babylon, technology, etc., were thought to be metaphorical. It was insane to believe Israel would become a nation again after being dispersed for 2,000 years. No other nation has ever done this. But it literally happened in the exact order it was said it would happen.

Israel and Jews are important, after all, Church fathers teach that Enoch and Elijah will spread Christianity among Jews in time of Antichrist rising and many of them will convert to Christianity. Even more, Antichrist will be Jew from Dan tribe .
Many prophecies from the Old Testament can and work applied on Christian nations/people. Biblical prophet is not futurologist like the most Protestants think. He didn’t foreseen future, but God’s will.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Babylon, too, was considered metaphorical but thanks to Saddam and those who took over the project after his death, here comes the literal city of Babylon. So was the revived Roman Empire but now the European Union has been created. So was the destruction that possibly alludes to a nuclear holocaust but now we have the technology.

Babylon is indeed used metaphorical. It is actually Jerusalem which will be the capital of Antichrist World Empire.

Originally posted by AshleyD
The list goes on and on. Only a sliver of end time prophecy relates to Israel but I used the prophecies relating to Israel as an example because the original post asked for some examples. Those were from the top of my head.

OK.

Originally posted by AshleyD
However, we watch Israel closely because it is "the mother of all signs," in essence. It's not an obsession unless you believe God is obsessive. He said He would prove His power through Israel and that Israel would be a sign as the "age of the gentiles" draws to a close. So, it's not something we pull out of thin air. You'll have to take that up with Him if you thing prophecy is Israel-centric.

I write up why are Israel and Jews important.

Originally posted by AshleyD
And once again (I don't understand how everyone keeps missing this), the "Israel prophecies" were one set of examples I gave and said as clearly as I could there were many, many more. I'm not going to sit here all day and list and explain a couple hundred prophecies when the information is all over the web. If you feel they are Israel-centric, then go look at the other hundreds that aren't. The Bible is approximately 30-40% prophecy. I'm not the only one with access to Google. Run some searches to find what you're looking for. I promise you, it really isn't rocket science.

Link to site you left – many explanations are overstretched to fulfill somebody’s thoughts that we live in the last time. That’s the not first time in the history.

Originally posted by Vojvoda
Biblical prophet is not futurologist like the most Protestants think

Oh Dear. Are you a preterist? That might explain your view.

Babylon is indeed used metaphorical. It is actually Jerusalem which will be the capital of Antichrist World Empire.

Agreed. The system of Babylon is often used metaphorically throughout the Bible and Jerusalem is important. However, Babylon is now being recreated as many of us literal prophecy watchers believed all along. Pay close attention- Jerusalem and Babylon are both required to be literal cities for the end times. One as a religious center and another as a commercial center.

Also read the prophecy concerning the final destruction of literal Babylon in the Old Testament. It was never fulfilled the way it was supposed to be done because the prophecy is to be literally fulfilled in the end times because the literal city was promised to literally exist and will literally be destroyed. Literally!

Link to site you left – many explanations are overstretched to fulfill somebody’s thoughts that we live in the last time. That’s the not first time in the history.

I already answered this question in this comment when confronted with this argument.

And because for some reason the concept of prophetic "examples" is not getting through, click here for hundreds of sites concerning prophecy. And that's all I'm going to say concerning that. lol

reply to post by Icarus Rising


So are you saying that Thomas would've still been saved if he believed Jesus lied when he said he would be resurrected? Is it possible to be saved without believing the resurrection actually took place? If that's what you believe, then I agree, Thomas would've been saved. But most Christians preach that Christianity without the resurrection is spiritually dead.

The main point of the question is why should we be required to believe with less evidence than Thomas or the other apostles. By your own admission, none of them would've believed without seeing the risen Jesus for themselves. Why should I be sent to Hell for being just as skeptical as Thomas and the other apostles?