the Perfect Party

lets discuss what would make a Perfect party in the UK
a party that actuily means something and would be in good running if they exsisted since so Far all our political parties are either liers or have a hiden agenda of their own,

in this topic we could talk about what that party could do in the following which have been missed by previous parties

Health (Hospitals, GPs, NHS)
Military (Budget, Troops, over seas ops)
Education (Primary, Private, secondry)
Immagration (Boarders, detention)
hate crime (Public display of hate, ect )
Police (Police pay, Police PC, )
Tax (Higher taxs, higer VAT ect)

things that play a major role in society

if we had a perfect party how do you think they would deal with all the problems?

If only there were such a thing

This is going to be a very personal thing, I think, so everyone's responses will be different. Even those ATS members who are in an existing political party are highly unlikely to agree with all the policies that group currently endorse. Let's see...

Health
Keep the National Health Service exactly that... national. Free at the point of use, and the influence of the private sector should be limited. Healthcare is about healing, not making a profit. In my mind there's something wrong if you have to pay through the nose just to see a doctor - it's quite a warped morality.

GPs... they deserve their pay, and I don't begrudge a single penny. However, I think they should work weekends and take on home visits and out-of-hours appointments (which, at present, few GPs do) too so that the public gets genuine value for money. After all, the tax payer gives them their salaries and heavily subsidises their education.

NHS dentistry also needs a huge overhaul, because private dentists have basically made finding an NHS dentist a bit like finding a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Military
The defence budget needs to go up. A new benchmark for our military capabilities should be introduced - we should be able to undertake an operation on the scale of the Falklands War completely independently, with no military/logistical help from any other nation. An independent body of military experts should be set up to see if this benchmark is being met, and should provide the government with recommendations as to how to achieve and maintain this level of capability. Britain has 13 overseas colonies to defend right around the world and numerous other defence agreements (NATO, the Five Power Defence Arrangements) and a decent military is essential for us to be able to fulfill our commitments.

There should also be no cutbacks in proposed procurements - we should purchase all of the Type 45s, Eurofighter Typhoons, Astute submarines and aircraft carriers that we said we would. High tech stuff is all well and good, but it can't be in two places at once so there's still a need for numbers. It's expensive but worth it.

Money should also be set aside to research an independent ICBM system for our nuclear deterrent - at present we construct our own nuclear warheads and submarines, so why don't we create our own missiles? If North Korea and Russia can do it, we most certainly can. This wouldn't be implemented until after Trident's lifetime (2030s or beyond) so there's plenty of time for research and testing and it wouldn't be too big a drain on the defence budget if costs were spread sufficiently.

Education
School genuinely should be a place that kids appreciate. I know I appreciate my education at school level in retrospect (though I'm not sure whether I did at the time). A big problem with many political parties (particular the Conservatives, but it also applies to Labour and the Lib Dems too) is that a lot of their MPs have been to either a private school or to Oxbridge or both. Most people don't do that. Most people go to a state school and, for those who do manage to get to university, go to others besides Oxbridge. Many haven't been in a state school for a whole day, let alone their entire early years... they don't seem to be qualified to run the state education system, then.

Schools should be encouraged to take more trips (since many pupils wouldn't otherwise have the opportunity to visit places like the Normandy beaches, WWI battlefields, Pompeii or Auschwitz or go on walks/to activity centres for a few days).

They should also be given more power to govern their own affairs (for instance, any money they save from one year's budget should not be taken from them by the local authority but should be left with the school, giving them the chance to save up for refurbishments, new facilities etc.)

Ideally, top up fees for university would also be abolished too. Getting into higher education should be based on skills alone, and not money or where you happen to live.

Immigration
This is a touchy area, so whatever course is chosen must be done in a clear but fair manner.

I support the Australian-style points system that we're currently in the process of adopting for migrants coming from outside the EU. It means that our culture is still enriched by influences from elsewhere but the people who come here have skills which can benefit us as a nation too.

As for inter-EU immigration, it's hard to do much about because that's part of the deal by being a part of the organisation. I suppose it might be possible for the EU to keep an eye on its member states and intervene when it seems one state is receiving too many EU immigrants or another is losing too many of its citizens to emigration. Let's face it, with the EU as interlinked as it is, if one country a significant proportion of its workforce as emigrants then its economic decline would have a knock-on effect on other parts of the EU.

Hate crime
We shouldn't sweep this under the carpet. It should be tackled head-on and not through just through laws but through debate and free speech. Tell the people who peddle hate why they're wrong and why their ideas are so vile.

There's a fine line between a hate crime and freedom of speech. I would not take away anyone's right to criticise a particular religion, country etc. Free speech should be protected. However, when a comment openly tries to provoke confrontation or violence (we've seen numerous race riots in this country, for instance... or we saw the protests over the Danish cartoons last year with some calling for the murder of people who criticised Mohammed - both instances are completely unacceptable in the United Kingdom) then that's a hate crime. You can criticise someone without having to call for their death or injury.

Police
Their pay should be backdated but it should be made clear to other public sector workers that this is a one-off.

Police also shouldn't be given a right to strike - they do get pretty good pay and a decent pension in return for not having the ability to go on strike. We really don't want to be heading back to the 1970s, thank you very much.

Police bureaucracy should also be cut as far as possible, meaning our officers spent less time filling in forms and more times doing the job they joined the force to do.

Tax
It's likely that a lot of tax rises could be avoided if the government and the civil service were more efficient. This doesn't necessarily mean staff cutbacks but it does mean working out how things can be streamlined and require less money to be thrown at them.

People would probably be less concerned at paying higher tax rates if they knew their taxes were doing something that they wanted.

What Ste2652 said....

Seems we are in agreement. Couldn't fault you, or improve significantly on your thinking.

Just for giggles, I am a member of the New party. Worth having a look. They have been gathering steam over the past couple of years, although, admittedly, I haven't been as involved as I was in the past.

Also, maybe, we could look into setting up a movement/party of our own. I know, fundamentally, that us Brits here on ATS are largely in agreement about most of the core issues. Could be worth a chin wag about...

Woo! I've got one vote! 14,999,999 to go and I'm the Prime Minister!

The thing to remember about political parties is that they're not monolithic blocks of people who think identically. They're pretty loose coalitions of people with similar fundamental beliefs... you could say, for example, that David Cameron is on the left of the Conservative Party or Tony Blair was on the right of the Labour Party. I imagine, if you looked closely, there are all kinds of little factions and groups within each party.

reply to post by Ste2652


if you ever run
you got my vote mate
best answer i have seen and couldnt agree more

Bodrul, another great thread to get my teeth in to and will warrant a mention in my next ATS review podcast.

The question of a perfect political party is one that will always elude us as we are all different, and what I think is the right solution, will be challenged and disagreed with by someone.

Be that as it may, these are my ideas for what I would want to see:

Health (Hospitals, GPs, NHS)

I believe that the provision of health services should be free at the point of delivery for all UK citizens and tax payers, however, health should be a contract between the state and the individual, the state has the commitment to provide the services required to treat you but the individual has their part to do. While services should be provided, we have to accept that there is a limit to the amount of funding for the NHS, and why should taxes be used to treat people who have brought the symptoms on themselves, and here I am going to be specific:

Smoking, obesity (over eating and lack of exercise) and illegal drug use.

I believe we should have a more balanced hospital system, with local, cottage hospitals for the treatment of less serious illnesses in the community, with more serious illnesses being treated at regional or city hospitals. There should be no postcode lottery for treatment as this should be determined at a national level. And here I would include Scotland as well.

I am in favour of being able to pay for newer treatments if they have not been fully approved in the UK. This is freedom of choice and what to spend YOUR money on.


Firstly, I am not a GP but I think the last contract agreed between the Government and GPs is one that is not the best for us, the consumer of health services. Doctors should provide a 24 hour local service. When I call my doctor out, I want it to be someone from my practice who has at least a chance that they will understand my notes and be available in timely manner.


Military (Budget, Troops, over seas ops)

If we expected our military be project UK military power, then they should be provided with all the equipment to do what our leaders expected them to do and then provide fully for them when they return. I do not want to hear anymore stories of our troops returning from service and not been fully provided for. We have asked them to put their lives at risk, the least we can do is fully support them when they return.

We should honour our troops when they return!!

We should continue with a professional military that has the best equipment and training in the world. The US wanted the UK to be part of the war of terror as we have some of the best trained military and have been involved with a low level conflict in Northern Ireland that has given us many advantages other the US military.

We should continue to project military power when it is in our interests.


Education (Primary, Private, secondary)

One of the changes I would look to make would be vouchers so people can choose how and where they wish their children to be educated. This would enable the current state funding system to remain in place but give people the opportunity to top up their vouchers if they wanted to use the private sector. Vouchers would apply from nursery to secondary.

I have not convinced of the aim that attending a college or university and gaining a degree is what everyone who has attending school wants. We seems to be fixed on this and I believe we should spend as much state funding on providing training outside of the normal education system. This will also enable us to have a greater skilled workforce.

The only major change I would look to impose would be that private schools that take advantage of charitable status must be audited and if they do not meet the status, then it would be withdrawn and the school would operate in a normal commercial environment.


Immigration (Borders, detention)

To me this is very simple, if you are not a citizen of the UK or have the legal right to be here, then you are removed. I do not care for any of the obligations to help refugees as the treaties that cover this state that the refugee must state their status at the first safe country and to get to the UK typically means coming via a safe country. I would remove the right of illegal refugees to appeal.

To police this would require a border force which would need the powers of the police and of customs. I would want to review the best option for border force.


Hate crime (Public display of hate, etc)


One person’s display of hate can be seen as being acceptable by someone else. We have to be to very careful that we do not remove the ability of people to express their views. The mark of a tolerant society is one that will allow its citizens to express a view.

I do not like the idea of a sentence for a crime being determined by if it is a hate or race crime. Murder/assault and the like are crimes that should be sentenced on the fact that they are a serious crime. If one has the concept of a race or hate crime, then is should apply to all crime that is committed by one person of race or colour on another. No matter the crime.


Police (Police pay, Police PC, )


We now expect our police to do a great deal more, and protect us not just from local crime but international terrorism. We should be prepared to pay for a police force that can protect us and we have to make choices. If we want more police officers on the beat then we have to pay for them. I do want more local police officers that are part of the community but I also expect to feel safe and protected at a national level. I would certainly explore the idea of a national organization for major or serious crimes.

I would also look to prevent police officers being prosecuted in the line of duty. We expect our police to react to a situation so as a society we should ensure we protect them.

On police pay, this should be standard across the UK and that the arbitration should be binding on the Government.


Tax (Higher taxs, higher VAT etc)

Of course I want to pay as little tax as possible, but accept that for the provision of services these have to be paid for.

There should be greater tiering of tax at the higher end. I would propose that for earnings in a tax year over £750,000 should be subject to a higher rate of tax, say 75%.

To balance this, I would seek to have a more tougher tax enforcement agency, coupled with a greater push of those claiming state benefits who are not entitled. These people need to be imprisoned.

reply to post by Freedom ERP


i agree with most of what you are saying
but the 75% sticks out the most
that would most likely drive most people who work hard and earn alot out of this country.

i believe those who can and work their best should not have to hand over their wages like that.

this is more like picking on the welthy (i am not wealthy)

also your stance on military is good, we need better equipment and accomidations.

also on the NHS part, you have to remember the large amount of Cash the goverment get from smokers (as much as i hate smoking and smokers) their Tax from their habbit is putting alot into the system.

rest sound good

reply to post by bodrul


I hear your point about a 75% tax rate bodrul, but so few people in the UK earn £750k in a year the impact would be small. I did consider a million as a threadhold for an additional rate of tax. There should be one above the current 40%. From memory, you need to earn about £37k per year to pay 40% tax then that is it.


The NHS has to be paid for and if the tax on smoking and drinking is one way to fund the NHS, so what?


Moving on, I would look to make changes to the community charge. While a return to the old rates system may work, I think the fairest way is a local income tax. What you paid locally is based on your income and typically people with bigger incomes have bigger property. If you have more than one property, you still buy the local tax. Again, typically people with more than one house have greater incomes.

reply to post by Freedom ERP


but who in their right mind would want to lose
£562,500 or 750k and be left with £187,500?
that almost all their earnings, you think that these people wont just pack and leave to a country where the Tax rate isnt so high.
one person comes to mind is that racing driver who left England
one reason was the TAX in this country.

they would be better off in another country aswell

main issue is you saying why should Tax money be used one people that smoke when they also contribute through TAX and VAT on Fags.

reply to post by bodrul


I would question your maths bodrul. Up to £750k is would be the current 40% but once you earn more than £750K, any income above that would be taxed at 75%.

So if you earned up to £750K, would would take home in the order of £400k a year. The actual number depends of your tax allowances and how clever you can be with your allowances.

How many people earn more than £750k per year. Anyone care to admit?

So the impact would be small and many of those who earn more that £750k per year would employ accountants and tax advisors to minimise their tax hit.

In your prefect party bodrul, what would propose for income tax?


On the services we expect, I still believe we should have a contract of sorts that we will look after ourselves in return for the Government via our taxes, providing a health service.

reply to post by Freedom ERP


my maths was on 75% of 750k
i know my maths suck but percentage calculations dont

i will right mine up next week right now i got two important assignments due in this week (god shoot me)

seems other than a discussion over the rates of tax, do we have the basis of a new UK political party?

And a bump up, so there is a UK politics thread at the top of the stack for a few minutes at least!!!

reply to post by Freedom ERP


yeap, i have a few good ideas though
which i will write down next week

This could be interesting... return to your constituencies and prepare for government!

Tax rates are always tricky things, though - even the well-established parties don't seem to have found a happy medium (people always complain that they pay too much tax or public services aren't good enough... or both).

And ste2652, you have hit upon the "Holy Grail" question that I see no current political parties want to have a diologue with us on. They seem to skirt around the question or say they are giving us the opportunity to interact with Government and set the agenda, but nothing seems to happen.

So how would our perfect party have a diologue with the people on funding public services/taxation, and then working with the people, determine what we want to be paid for.

We have to assume there is a finite amount of funding from taxation, so the people need to know that not everything can be funded. I just wonder how many people understand how public services are funding.

I would say our the prefect party, we need to start a policy of educating the people of how Government works and it funded.

We allow our Government to commit us all to a vast debt. Just imagine if we all run our own households and accounts in a similar mannor, so one of the first corner stones would be to ask the people if they want us to balance the books, and explain what this would mean.

reply to post by Freedom ERP


Ignorance is part of the problem. I wonder how many of us here on ATS were sat down and taught how British governance and politics works whilst at school (I say 'school' deliberately because not everyone goes on to sixth form/college and university). My guess would be not many. It's very hard to have a proper debate without an educated population, and so this is an issue that really needs to be sorted out. People feel left out of the political system because it seems so complex and out of their league when, if we're supposed to be a democracy, it's supposed to be the complete opposite - accessible and open.

reply to post by Ste2652


Totally cannot put you at fault.

We do need to maintain an independent military and I am in favour of having small militia's aswell (we use to, our constitution allows it).

It could be used as a local defence force, we do need it and it will help support our main armed forced.

Education, believe it or not, I'm in favour with the school voucher system for children from a poor background. I don't support positive discrimination for university places. It's wrong in my position.

Finally, our taxes are too high and they needed to be lowered. Certain taxes need to be abolished as well.

[edit on 12-1-2008 by infinite]

But if lower taxes infinite, what services are we happy to forgo? We have all grown up with the expectation that we will be provided by the state with a level of service.

reply to post by Freedom ERP


Ideally we'd need a detailed breakdown of how our taxes are spent. I know the Treasury publishes the odd pie chart saying "x" is spent on health, "y" is spent on education and so on but it's not really detailed enough.

I also still think that most people wouldn't mind paying this much tax so long as they knew where it was being spent and why it was being spent there. A lot of people feel shut out, and that's not a good thing in democracies because it breeds resentment.

But can we trust any figures that the Government would provide. I agree we should be able to get this information from our Govenment but we look read and hear the opposition questioning any funding information given by the Government.

Of course, we would expect the opposition to challenge the Government so how can be sure we are getting accurate information.

If we spent more time educating our young in school about politics, then we might get the next generation to take an interest and challenge.

So can we say that the first policy of the perfect party would be to enable education on our political system?