why does america the most open society in the world never get the benifit of the doubt?

reply to post by mek12


Mek,

I'm afraid your hateful post lacks coherence but I'll give it a whirl.

Are you implying Americans should be ashamed for mastering running water? Should we also be embarrassed about our cable and fiber optic networks?

I'm just a little confused.

Becker




[edit on 20-11-2007 by Becker44]

reply to post by deadbang



I'm replying to my own post, as I see the need for apology...I do not want to give the impression I think less of New Zealand, I don't. In NZ I have found my second home, and proudly recieved my permanent residency back in May.

I do however want to point out, it's no Shangri La...no place is...every country comes with it's faults.

Originally posted by deadbang
reply to post by AotearoaSon

 

AotearoaSon, As an American that has lived in New Zealand for 3 years now, I can without hesitation say, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Yeah, three years is a long time.I bow to you.

1. Education - "Yes,I got the rhetoric...we have a quality school system here"...no you don't, I have two teens in school here in Christchurch, I would compare the school system here to Oklahoma or Louisiana (sub par)...sorry to anyone from those states, but you understand what I mean.

Then please explain why so many U.S. teachers come to NZ to study our education system? What schools are they at?

2. To your thoughts about your friendly neighbors...Learn Mandarin, you'll need it within the next 30-40 years or so, and before you sputter out an answer, for reference look at the 2005 census...the demographers predict the chinese will outnumber Pakeha and Maori by 2050.

You say it like it's a bad thing? Heck, we already let yanks like you in

3. Your decision to not allow nukes into the country, either by visiting craft or as a power policy. Great, I applaud the stance if thats how the people of NZ feel, but to throw it around as a "we stood up to Goliath", could not be further from the truth. Who do you think would come to your aide first?...maybe you should ask Mr. Winston Peters, he knows...

Well,we did 'stand up to Goliath'. It's the vested interests that are trying to change that. I hope they come to our aid so I can get some U.S cigarettes and mars bars and my daughter can get raped (sorry, fall pregnant to) by a U.S. serviceman. Winston is a self-serving fool...

4. Your concern about foreign investment is well placed, but aimed in the wrong direction...once again back to China, and also Aussie...between the two, by mid century both will have carved up NZ...you lose thousand of young people to Aussie every year, and for investment, China ownes large sectors of NZ business already

Yes,we are an open market it seems, but I was talking about the U.S, which is the topic,I thought.

so before you start slamming my home country, take a more honest look at your own first.

I know we aren't perfect, I never said I was, except maybe tongue in cheek. The difference is that we are not xenophobic,gungho, arrogant,interfering [ Mod Edit ] and since the U.S. likes to involve itself in my affairs,it shall suffer my scrutiny.

my2cents

edit for poor American spelling, oh the horror!


[edit on 20-11-2007 by deadbang]

Apologies for layout...almost looks like ol'glory, without the stars lol

[edit on 20-11-2007 by AotearoaSon]







[Mod Edit: Format (please make sure to close quoted portions) and censor circumnavigation - Jak]

[edit on 21/11/07 by JAK]

reply to post by deadbang


I,also,didn't say it was Shangri-la.

We can make a thread about this to discuss,if you want,but with 3 years behind you,you must know it all already.

The nationalists have arrived

reply to post by cpdaman


Well said back at you. I agree with the majority of what you have said there, and i must admit I don't completely understand the issues facing American citizens.

What i meant by America standing up for the rights of other nations is things like Iraq, and Afghanistan to a lesser extent.

It really makes me mad when the Bush government can finally admit that they were wrong about Iraq and the WMDs, and then send MORE troops to the region.

The national elections here are in 3 days and for the first time in 11 years the Howard government is about to face a tough election, one that is predicted to put the opposition into power.

This loss of support for the government all started over the Iraq matter, and then flowed into the AWB scandal (the Australian Wheat Board was paying kickbacks to Saddam) and Howard's stubborn defiance against signing the Kyoto protocol.

Kind of a bit off topic but what i am trying to say is America has to think of the ramifications of it's "War on Terror". It has dragged so many nations into it's war as the Coalition, and yet the people of those nation's didn't decide to join, it was the leaders. We the people had no say in the matter. If a referendum was carried out here prior to Iraq, i doubt we would have went and i doubt Howard would be at risk of losing this election.

After next years election in the US I am really hoping to see a change in attitude of the government. Although you are unwilling to admit it, America is a superpower in decline. The American power peak was during the late Cold War and other nations like China, India, Japan are beginning to vie for the position of the world's next great power.

Will things be different when one of them is policing the world? I truly don't mind America defending small democracies and acting as the World Police, but there are lines and i believe Bush crossed them long ago. Hopefully your next leaders can put your nation back on track.

reply to post by AotearoaSon


I'll reply to your statements and then let it go so as not to derail the OP.

1. Why do so many of our teachers come here, first off I was unaware they were coming over in droves, but none the less, it's called benchmarking, I beleive all countries with any imagination do it, making sure your providing the same equivalent education levels is good stewardship of our children.

2. I in no way mean that immigration from China or anywhere else is a bad thing for NZ, just need to take a sustainable approach to it...Oh and thanks for the pass on letting me in, and by the way, I did not just show up hat in hand, I was invited because of my job skills.

3. Well this one kinda gets under my skin, I said good on ya' for the whole nuke stance, if thats what NZ wants then great, honest. However you did not have to refer to U.S. servicemen as rapists, I served for 5 years in the military, and to my knowledge, never raped anyone, TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR!. As far as Winston goes, well we can disagree on that one, fine by me.

4. Foreign investment comes in many forms and right now China is one of the largest investors in all economies globally, they'll owne us all by the time it's over.

5. The whole xenophobic, gungho, arrogant, etc, etc...youv'e obviously met the wrong Americans friend, you do realize there are 300+ million of us right?, as all New Zealanders are not the same, neither are Americans...duh!

if you would like to open a let's praise New Zealand thread in BTS, I'll be there right with ya, I think it's a great place!!!

reply to post by rockets red glare


Right on Rockets! It's almost gotten to the point where some might be embarrassed to be Patriotic Americans. I will concede that maybe our leadership has not always made wise, ethical decisions - however - we at least try to make things right.

This Thanksgiving, I am very thankful for living in a country that allows me to worship as I please and allows me to disagree with my government.

Happy Thanksgiving everybody!

Originally posted by rockets red glare
free expresson, free press, human rights... our motivations are clear.

Oh really?

Free expression = free speech zones.

Free press = corporate owned and propaganda spewing.

Human rights = gitmo, waterboarding, torture.

Yes, I think the motivations are crystal clear.

Originally posted by ShadowEyes

Originally posted by rockets red glare
free expresson, free press, human rights... our motivations are clear.

Oh really?

Free expression = free speech zones.

Free press = corporate owned and propaganda spewing.

Human rights = gitmo, waterboarding, torture.

Yes, I think the motivations are crystal clear.

Free expression = ATS/the Blogosphere/Hollywierd
Free Press = market driven; people are free to choose what bias they want to listen to
Human Rights = gitmo = where suspected terrorists get better treatment than their training camps; creative techniques used to extract information from known terrorists in order to prevent more terrorist acts!

America the Boastful

Originally posted by Becker44

Originally posted by Astyanax
May I ask you who voted the United States the leader of the world?

It was an act of necessity... the sheer magnificance of American ingenuity... leaping beyond the rest of the world... America was seen as the natural leader...

Fiddlesticks.

Let me try to make this as simple as I can.

America is not the leader of the world. No country is the leader of the world.

Who does what America tells them? Only those countries whose governments find it in their interest to do so - for a time. Do the peoples of the world do as America tells them? Does the General Assembly of the United Nations vote as America tells it to? Do the Japanese do what America tells them when it comes to, for instance, whaling? Do the Koreans do as America tells them over stem-cell research? Do Indians do as America tells them when it comes to nuclear proliferation? Do the British do as America tells them in the matter of international criminal conventions? Notice that I do not even have to mention America's enemies, such as Fidel Castro or Osama bin Laden. Even America's friends don't do as they're told.

Some 'leader'.

By the way, O Thou Who Adorest the Big Sexy Hunky Tennis Champ, your attempt to adopt a big-brotherly patronizing tone towards me might not have fallen so crashingly flat if you'd taken a bit more care over your spelling and grammar.

* * *

Originally posted by centurion1211
And you're welcome for the security umbrella that lets little countries such as NZ get to stand up and shout about how tough, etc. they are (because deep inside they know the U.S. is there to keep anyone from doing anything about your shouting). Hmmm, what if Indonesia decided one day they could put your little islands to better use than you can? Think someone there hasn't already decided you'd all be better off as part of the muslim world? You going to stop them all by yourselves? No, you'll be begging the U.S. to spend...

Are all Americans patronizing, superior, uninformed and given to making themselves gratuitously obnoxious? If I had to form an opinion purely by reading what you and Becker have posted in this thread, I would certainly conclude that they were.

Please go back and read, with some attention this time, the post you complimented as 'beautiful'. Try to understand it. If getting involved didn't suit America's economic and security interests, New Zealand could beg till Doomsday for American help against a threat from Indonesia, China, or anywhere else. The same applies to any other country, whether an ally of America's or not.

Originally posted by Zoltan
Reading garbage like this makes me embarassed to know it was generated by a fellow-American.

You're telling me. I'm not even American, and I'm still embarrassed for America.

[edit on 21-11-2007 by Astyanax]

Before I start I’m Australian…

I think first we must look at a country in regards to time. Time I mean in that things change. Governments change, leaders change, laws change, religion changes and of course wars change country’s.

How do we rate a country? By its economy, military strength, government, religion, technology, general world views?

I guess we can say I don’t like this person NOW or this policy NOW or this situation brought on by this country NOW.

I think making a judgment on a country or anything for that matter you should first look at your own. By this I mean a well researched look from many different sources….

Personally I don’t think America is perfect… but neither is Australia or any country for that matter… Nor do I believe any country will be perfect…

Many countrys and people whether they believe it or not due to globalization America is largely a model for many people… My meaning being its clothes, entertainment, food, technology etc.

So even if people state negative judgments on America they are still happy to eat KFC, watch a Bruce Willis movie and buy Microsoft stocks and have a laugh at the latest Hollywood debacle…

I fully agree if people come up with substantial evidence of America making “wrong decisions” or doing “bad things” but I’m still happy to know that if Australia has any trouble the US our ally (or big brother as some may say) will be there to support us as we have done for them.

Cheers

America, please realise that we don't hate you, we love you.... but please realise that you are not the king of the world, you never will be...

Yes, you are a decent country (in some ways), but you are also responsible for a hell of a lot of misery on this planet.

Xenophobia and ignorance is rife in your country, your media is corrupt and patronising, you have a monkey president and waterboarding IS torture...

Oh yeah, and fast food, says it all... 'gimme some food FAST'...

Hello to the United States of America!

A beautiful country, of mixed landscapes and peoples. A country full of potential and promise.

A country that in WW2, stood up and was counted, and who's sacrifice at the time will never be forgotten.

A country that, in 2003, did exactly the same to Iraq as the Germans did to Poland, using very similar justifications.

Sorry, but the halo slipped

And I know...before you point it out to me, that I'm British, and I know that we followed you in there.

And I'm ashamed of it, because my grandparents fought in WW2 to prevent such a thing from happening again.

reply to post by deadbang


I apologise for my disingenuousness.


Let's agree to disagree on some topics and get back on track.

(Sometimes I have a bad day and don't react well to it)

Originally posted by wsamplet
I have said this in another thread and I will say it again here. All these other countries are so quick to bash us but when they need something we are the first they call. Especially our so called allies. If I had my way our country would not Heed there calls the next time around.

Be careful with this thought as it is no longer valid. Actually China, Russia, Japan and Dubai are getting these calls which is why most our our huge military subcontractors are moving to these areas- and very quickly as we have been sold out. And you had better believe that- if you don't- you will see it for yourself soon enough- The dollar is nearing the value of the Peso and when this happens- its the end of our economy for a very long time.

If you think about it- there has been much complicity in this and when the U.S. calls in all these debts- which are in dollars- do you think these countries will have any problem returning a bunch of worthless paper dollars? Its almost like those collection agencies that will agree to settle $.0.10 on each dollar.

Wake up and smell the foreclosure!

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by TheGreySwordsman

 

Being opposed to Pornography, Alcoholism, Vulgarity and Racism is a bad thing? That is what you just said. Do you realize that?

Pornography demeans Women and many suffer abuse in the industry not to mention those that prey on Juveniles.

Alcohol is the most dangerous drug known to man and kills countless people annually worldwide.

Vulgarity is used by people who lack the vocabulary to express themselves without resorting to crude language.

That radio jock made a racist comment on the air. His words hurt people who were accomplishing great things in their life. He entertains people like himself who get pleasure by demeaning others. How sad.

You are quite entitled (and no you do not need my permission- so please dont go there) to your feelings on pornography, vulgarity and addiction- and there is no harm in being against something for wich you feel passionate about.

It would also like to point out that pornography may help some poor ugly, fat guy who couldn't get laid in a womens prison with a pocket full of pardons- this pornography may offer him the opportunity for the enjoyment of rubbing a good one out.

Alcohol when consumed in moderation gives many some relaxation and also a feeling of community. Many do not abuse alcohol or drugs but do consume them from time to time- so to say that alcohol is a major cause of death- well so is pollution.

And vulgarity is not just a vulgar coin of phrase for an uneducated person. Education is extremely over-rated anyway- at least in my opinion. Look at all the Harvard and Yale grads that have run this country into the ground by utilizing all their fabulous educated knowledge. Vulgarity can be amusing as well as being highly educational:

www.youtube.com...

I respect your eloquent comments and beliefs. I have mine as well and neither are right over another- we just have different points of view on similar subjects. And the extremes like addiction are the minority.

I'm REALLY enjoying this thread. Despite being an American and hearing some of the 'negative' points that some people are saying from other countries, I value those opinions. I hate knowing that America has fallen down during the past decade (or three), but the country does have it's problems - we should own up to them. Who gave us the 'right' to push our agenda onto so many other countries? We don't even have our act together in our own country! The political leaders of America speak out of both sides of their mouths -- for me, it's insulting to hear Bush talk about diplomacy and democracy when he plays Dictator during his lame-duck session now.

And before the super-Patriots decide to bash me, let me say that there are good things about America. One of our excellent features is some of our topography -- our mountains and rivers are a joy to me. The ideology of having individual rights is a blessing, but it's a shame that those rights continue to get impinged upon by law-upon-law. How can we be a 'free people' when we have laws that protect the laws to keep the law in order?!And there are some other REAL problems here, too. Ironically, the the big problems have all been manmade (thank you U.S. Government). Our Government is much too large and much too slovenly. We have become a convoluted Nation and we EVER had the ability to reinstate another Reaganesque RIF that is well-deserved, the unemployment rate would definately hit the double-digit figure.

Like many countries....we try to love the best parts and not let the oppressive governments get us down too low.

I hope people continue sharing their points of view. And DK3000, I'm lovin' what you write.

I think the OP has showcased the typical naivete and patriotic enthusiasm that come with inexperience. I was the exact same way. I used to be a highly patriotic American Republican Evangelical Christian. With age, I renounced these values as I have seen the ignorance and hypocrisy of many of those who espouse these values.

For a while, I was extremely pro-democratic party and very far-left (socialist to a point). After a while, I learned that this did not work terribly well either, as the Democrats turned out to be a bunch of spineless liars. Reality has left me disgusted and cynical. Neither of the groups in power in this wretched two-party American system are worth my time.

I have learned that we "fight terrorism," and "spread democracy," while turning a blind eye to Saudi Arabia (a brutal, repressive autocracy who punishes rape victims and funds terrorism), and up until recently, Pakistan as well.

We have committed genocide against the Native Americans in the 19th century, and millions of Vietnamese were killed in the name of fighting communism in the 1960's. We have established brutal puppet regimes in Vietnam, Algeria, and Iran. We attempted to invade Cuba in the 1960's, but at the last moment pulled support for the Cuban ex-patriots that we picked to fight for us, leaving thousands of people slaughtered on the beaches of Cuba (JFK's fault AFAIK).

I have learned that puritanical policies such as anti-abortion, abstinence-only sex-ed and Intelligent Design have only hurt the educational system of the USA. Anti-abortion legislation has been shown to be ineffective in reducing the number of abortions, only making them less safe (causing unnecessary harm to women). I have seen pregnancy and STD rates increase in abstinence-only states. I have seen the American educational system fall so far behind European that it is an embarassment to the intelligence of Americans.

When you step back and look at it, the United States is not some saintly nation that does everything right, and is hated only because it is powerful. The USA is hated among Muslim countries because we have no respect for their culture, and station troops in their holy land in order to protect our oil interests. American politics are looked at with disdain and mockery among other western countries because we make mountains of mole hills with our social issues, and ignore economic and foreign policy issues.

As for the OP's comment about the American economy doing fine, he must be living under a rock. The United States is in 9 trillion dollars of debt, and has a massive trade deficit to both Asia and Europe. Our housing market collapsed over the summer, which triggered a collapse of the credit market (Americans buy EVERYTHING on credit). The American dollar is now worth LESS than the Canadian dollar, and far far less the Euro (which used to be worth 70 cents). The American economy is in the toilet.

What upsets me the most about so-called "patriots," is that they turn a blind eye to the evils of politicians, just because they support their world view. Think of how many children no longer have fathers (or mothers) because we invaded Iraq on baseless evidence, and Cheney wanted money for Halliburton.

Here's an idea.

If you don't like gay marriage- don't get married if you are gay.
If you don't like abortion- don't have one.
If you don't support sex-ed- grow a pair and have a sit down with your kids explaining your views. Don't expect the state to do it for you.
If you don't like the Theory of Evolution- don't believe in it.
If you like Bush- go ahead and like him.
If you support the war- send the troops proper body armor and letters of encouragement, and other good things. Don't expect a sticker on your van to do it for you.
If you don't like drugs- don't do them.

But DO NOT try to cram your beliefs down my throat. That is all I ask

[edit on 21-11-2007 by erkokite]

Day by day, moment by moment you prove yourself. ---PC