If Being Gay is alright in the eyes of God then.....

Originally posted by TACHYON
Ok religion aside (i myslef am agaisnt gays, and gay marriage), scientifically being gay does not provide for the best interest of Nature and evolution. The species ceases to exist.It is a scientific fact that certain species of salamaders living in a same sex environment mutate into the other sex. Sexual reproduction is in evolutions interest for higher level organisms. If you want to be gay fine, just dont hit on me. Peace

Now how can you be certain of what you just said? I once read a study that claimed gay men were usefull in a society because they helped keep the levels of aggression down. Perhaps if it were not for gay men all of you guys would be extinct by now because you would have killed yourselves off.

Originally posted by BlackJackal
Ok so you want me to think for myself

This is my beleif on the matter and if you don't like it then thats fine you are entitled to your opinion just like I am to mine. Being gay is not pre-programed into your brain from birth no-way no-how. You may be born with a desire for the opposite sex but the choice to act on that desire is what makes you gay. That's right a choice!

Our society does not give rights to Alcholics because they are a minority do we? We don't let the druggies march on washington to be heard. No, we send them to rehab. They also have a desire for something that they have to battle with, but the difference is that society accepts the gay community no questions asked. Come on is it not a coincidance that since the early 90's when the gay movement started that the number of gay's has increased from less than 1% of the population to 3% today? No its not it has become acceptable to be gay, Wouldn't an alcholic or a druggie love for society to accept them in the same way.

Bottom line is being born gay is a bunch of crap, you may have the desire but you have the god given abiltiy to choose yourself. As I sit here and right this message I have the desire to eat a pizza but I choose not to because I am tired of being overweight. It's all the same just think about it.

I just can't beleive that society is accepting of gay's when there are so many things that we do not accept.

Now you tell me why should society give a group of people minority status and all the perks that come along with it just because they choose to be with a member of the same sex.

Now are you happy my personal views

Were you born straight or were you just programmed that way?

Originally posted by BeingWatchedByThem
the reason there are more gay men around is because mothers that dont breast feed, give their kids that SOY CRAP! its got estrogen in it and effects the growing infants brain, *edit* and suppresses testosterone *end edit*

[Edited on 19-11-2003 by BeingWatchedByThem]

Ok i am sorry but i think you need to check this Link Out

But that is the most insane statement i have ever read.

Originally posted by kinglizard
It�s a difficult to find an answer. Usually when I debate I will attempt to �put myself in the other persons shoes� in an attempt to understand that persons viewpoint. To be honest, in this case I would likely feel exactly the same as you. I would feel abandoned and persecuted by God because he has labels me a sinner without having a choice in my actions or in this case who I loved.

So I comes down to being born this way or having chose this type of lifestyle. If we believe the bible is the word of god then it must be a choice, weather forced on you by events in childhood or evolved during adulthood the choice was likely yours or your parents. If you were born gay then God is not fair in condemning your actions.

I just don�t know what to say. All I know is it�s not my place to judge.

Good answer Even though I don't really feel like God "wronged" me or whatever -- I don't feel abandoned or persecuted or anything like that. Like I said, I really have no clue what the answer to everything else. I don't believe God would purposely create someone a certain way that he would later on condemn them for, that's why I don't really believe in the organized religions. And it's not just the gay thing, matter of fact it's more the variety of religions. If Christianity says so and so is the only way to God, would God condemn some young Malaysian kid that never knows a thing about Christianity? Or would he condemn Native Americans for believing in what they do? I'd like to think not. Like I said, if there is a God, I doubt any certain religion is able to define him and exactly what he wants, simply because all religions ARE man-made. So I'm just of the live-and-let-live mode of thinking.

Who cares what your sexual preference is. We are just now finally starting to get over race, why bring up sexuality? I don't care what religion you follow, either you can judge a person on how you think God wants you to, or you can simply judge a person, because they are just like you, just a person.


Tell you what, if someone ever meets "God," come back and tell us why he "condemns" homosexuals.

[Edited on 5-6-2004 by MKugs]

[Edited on 5-6-2004 by MKugs]

Originally posted by jezebel

Originally posted by TACHYON
Ok religion aside (i myslef am agaisnt gays, and gay marriage), scientifically being gay does not provide for the best interest of Nature and evolution. The species ceases to exist.It is a scientific fact that certain species of salamaders living in a same sex environment mutate into the other sex. Sexual reproduction is in evolutions interest for higher level organisms. If you want to be gay fine, just dont hit on me. Peace

That would be true if homosexuals made up the majority of the Earth's population. Since they only make up about 10% of Americans, and I'm sure the global average is lower than that, homosexuality does not pose a threat to the propogation of the species.
As a matter of fact, the high rate of reproduction and the increasing numbers of humans moving into tightly packed cities may be the reason we are seeing increased incidents of homosexuality throughout society. It could very well be nature's way of putting the brakes on, in order to slow down the rate of reproduction, so that we don't overpopulate our environment.
Do you realize that if the entire population of China walked past you in single file, the line would never end, because of the rate of reproduction?

If nature needed to slow down our rate of reproduction, it would be far easier to increase the number of people attracted to the same sex, than to suppress our desire for human intimacy.

If, instead of the existence of homosexuals, 10% of all heterosexuals were born without the ability to reproduce, it would probably be barren couples who get called "abominations" and "unnatural", instead of gay couples. I imagine there are even a few Biblical references we could include for justification.

Homosexuals experience the same natural desires, for affection and intimacy, as anyone else. The only thing that differentiates gay people from straight, is their natural attraction to the same sex vs. our natural attraction to the opposite sex. They are not a threat to the human species, nor are they contradictory to the evolutionary process. Since homosexuals are a small percentage of the population, the hetero majority will continue to repopulate the planet, but at a slightly slower rate.

Thats what condoms are for

I do agree with the overpopulation theory somewhat and it does make some sense, that it is a "brake" of sorts, but when things get back to normal (the population) then the gays will cease to exist. Its probably a cycle that continues back and forth bottlenecking(actual Bio term, dont ask) the population. (I never Knew i would be using freaking Biology to discuss this, I hated that class...eww)

[Edited on 5-6-2004 by TACHYON]

Oh and another thing, attration to the same sex is not natural, it is unnatural (you have stated it is natures method to curb population ).Nature is using UNORTHODOX methods to curb the population,certainly not "natural" in any sense.

[Edited on 5-6-2004 by TACHYON]

[Edited on 5-6-2004 by TACHYON]

[Edited on 5-6-2004 by TACHYON]

Originally posted by jezebel

Originally posted by TACHYON
Ok religion aside (i myslef am agaisnt gays, and gay marriage), scientifically being gay does not provide for the best interest of Nature and evolution. The species ceases to exist.It is a scientific fact that certain species of salamaders living in a same sex environment mutate into the other sex. Sexual reproduction is in evolutions interest for higher level organisms. If you want to be gay fine, just dont hit on me. Peace

That would be true if homosexuals made up the majority of the Earth's population. Since they only make up about 10% of Americans, and I'm sure the global average is lower than that, homosexuality does not pose a threat to the propogation of the species.
As a matter of fact, the high rate of reproduction and the increasing numbers of humans moving into tightly packed cities may be the reason we are seeing increased incidents of homosexuality throughout society. It could very well be nature's way of putting the brakes on, in order to slow down the rate of reproduction, so that we don't overpopulate our environment.
Do you realize that if the entire population of China walked past you in single file, the line would never end, because of the rate of reproduction?

If nature needed to slow down our rate of reproduction, it would be far easier to increase the number of people attracted to the same sex, than to suppress our desire for human intimacy.

If, instead of the existence of homosexuals, 10% of all heterosexuals were born without the ability to reproduce, it would probably be barren couples who get called "abominations" and "unnatural", instead of gay couples. I imagine there are even a few Biblical references we could include for justification.

Homosexuals experience the same natural desires, for affection and intimacy, as anyone else. The only thing that differentiates gay people from straight, is their natural attraction to the same sex vs. our natural attraction to the opposite sex. They are not a threat to the human species, nor are they contradictory to the evolutionary process. Since homosexuals are a small percentage of the population, the hetero majority will continue to repopulate the planet, but at a slightly slower rate.

You bring up yet another point, Why is it higher in the United states, shouldint the homosexualtiy rate be higher in China than in the UNited States? Its because it is a lifestlye choice also. The birth rate in China is much bigger than in the US.In China you would probably get a good asswhooping right in the middle of the street for being gay.

[Edited on 5-6-2004 by TACHYON]

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by TACHYON
If you want to be gay fine, just dont hit on me.

One more time for those that still don't get it.
Noone wants to be gay.
Some are born gay, and some are not.

If you were born gay would God have you born sinful, a baby is the most innnocent sinless (is that a real word?) thing there is. God would not have you be born gay.Simple and plain, as baby you must be born free of sin.

Originally posted by TACHYON
If you were born gay would God have you born sinful, a baby is the most innnocent sinless (is that a real word?) thing there is. God would not have you be born gay.Simple and plain, as baby you must be born free of sin.

Nice of you to tell us what God would or 'would not have.' You're not God, you have no idea what God wants, so how dare you try to pretend like you can speak for him? Especially in such a 'matter-of-fact' tone. Nothing in this whole argument is even set in stone, down to whether there is even a God or not. So don't try to say it's 'simple and plain.'

Originally posted by BlackJackal

To answer your question No gay's should not be persecuted because they differ from Christian views. However you tell me what makes it ok to be gay and why only humans choose to be gay?

If this is something that is born into humans wouldn't you think that it could happen to some other animals on the face of the planet since we are all just organisms. But wait a minute there has never been a documented case of a gay animal. Why? because animals cannot make decisions they just go on instinct and that instinct tells them to reproduce ironically enough the same thing that human instincts tell us. It all comes down to human choice not genes.

Heres an article from 1999:
www.suntimes.co.za...

Where are you getting your facts from?

Originally posted by W_HAMILTON
If Christianity says so and so is the only way to God, would God condemn some young Malaysian kid that never knows a thing about Christianity? Or would he condemn Native Americans for believing in what they do? I'd like to think not. Like I said, if there is a God, I doubt any certain religion is able to define him and exactly what he wants, simply because all religions ARE man-made. So I'm just of the live-and-let-live mode of thinking.

Well put.

As a non-practicing Christian, I can not stand the arrogance of Christian Missionaries who think that they have to save the "souls" of the world's people. Is some stone-age tribe in New Guinea going to hell because they have never heard of Jesus or the Bible??? What about the thousands of previous generations who never heard of Christianity? Are they all down below cookin?

Who cares about someone's sexual preference? As long as they are not hurting anyone, I sure don't care.

Take people one person at a time.

As said above, I agree that if there is a God, no one religion is going to be enoungh to define it.

I was also wondering, why is it that our Christian wild tales in the Bible(Burning Bush, Parting of the Red Sea, water into wine, etc) are fact and everyone else's wild tales are "Myths?"

Religion has done more harm than good.... IMO


.

Originally posted by TACHYON
If you were born gay would God have you born sinful, a baby is the most innnocent sinless (is that a real word?) thing there is. God would not have you be born gay.Simple and plain, as baby you must be born free of sin.

People are born in "wrong" states all the time. Remember life on earth is something else than life in heaven.
People are either born gay or straight, no choice involved here.

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by TACHYON
If you were born gay would God have you born sinful, a baby is the most innnocent sinless (is that a real word?) thing there is. God would not have you be born gay.Simple and plain, as baby you must be born free of sin.

People are born in "wrong" states all the time. Remember life on earth is something else than life in heaven.
People are either born gay or straight, no choice involved here.

You are mistaken, there is choice involved, as i have said, it is a lifestyle choice, none other than that. People are not just born gay. And for those of you who dont believe in God I feel bad for you because when the day of judement comes and that fire comes raining down, what are you going to tell God? All I have to say is better safe than sorry for you non-believers. You should at least believe in God for the sake of insurance. God will keep you on the STRAIGHT path, and dont let the evil stray you as has happend to some unfortunate people (it was their own free will to do so).

Originally posted by TACHYON
Oh and another thing, attration to the same sex is not natural, it is unnatural (you have stated it is natures method to curb population ).Nature is using UNORTHODOX methods to curb the population,certainly not "natural" in any sense.

If sexual orientation IS one of the methods used by nature to react to overpopulation, then it cannot be "unnatural". For something to be unnatural, it must be contrary to, or inconsistent with it's nature. Just because some people are not comfortable or familiar with all of nature's laws, doesn't mean its laws are unnatural. Nothing within someone's nature or caused by nature can be unnatural, since that would be a contradiction.

Originally posted by TACHYON
You bring up yet another point, Why is it higher in the United states, shouldint the homosexualtiy rate be higher in China than in the UNited States? Its because it is a lifestlye choice also. The birth rate in China is much bigger than in the US.In China you would probably get a good asswhooping right in the middle of the street for being gay.

What makes you think that it is higher in the US than China?

The actual percentage of homosexual and bisexual people in N.America is about 3 or 4% of men and 1 or 2% of women according to most current studies. That amounts to approx. 6 million Americans. In America's dozen largest cities, however, the percentage of men identifying themselves as gay jumps to 9 percent, compared with only 1 percent in rural areas (Binson & others, 1995; Laumann & others, 1994). www.davidmyers.org...

I couldn't find many estimates on the gay population of China, but I did find this:

...it's not clear how many gays and lesbians live in the country, today's Oriental Morning Post said. If the rate ranges between 3 and 5 percent, as according to scientific researches, the homosexual population in China will hit 30 million. www.etaiwannews.com...

In relation to the world as a whole, it's estimated that about 10-11% are homosexual...here is something to help put it in perspective:

If we could shrink the earth's population to a village of precisely 100 people, with all the existing human ratios remaining the same, it would look something like the following.

There would be:

_57 Asians
_21 Europeans
_14 from the Western Hemisphere, (both north and South)
__8 Africans
_52 would be female
_48 would be male
_70 would be non-white
_30 would be white
_70 would be non-Christian
_30 would be Christian
_89 would be heterosexual
_11 would be homosexual
__6 people would possess 59% of the entire
world's wealth and all 6 would be from the United States
_80 would live in substandard housing
_70 would be unable to read
_50 would suffer from malnutrition
__1 would be near death; 1 would be near birth
__1 (yes, only 1) would have a college education
__1 would own a computer

Originally posted by TACHYON
there is choice involved, as i have said, it is a lifestyle choice, none other than that. People are not just born gay.

Tachyon, you are wrong.
I am 100% sure of this, as I have quite a few friends and close relatives that face these problems.
People are born gay, period.
It's not a choice and it's not a lifestyle.
Recent science proves this as well. (tests conducted on sheep)
I really hate it when people (especially christians) think like you think.
I am a christian myself, and I am ashamed when other christians are so completely ignorant, superfacial and simplistic.
Next time, actually try to know what you're talking about before you talk.

[edit on 6-6-2004 by Jakko]

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by TACHYON
there is choice involved, as i have said, it is a lifestyle choice, none other than that. People are not just born gay.

Tachyon, you are wrong.
I am 100% sure of this, as I have quite a few friends and close relatives that face these problems.
People are born gay, period.
It's not a choice and it's not a lifestyle.
Recent science proves this as well. (tests conducted on sheep)
I really hate it when people (especially christians) think like you think.
I am a christian myself, and I am ashamed when other christians are so completely ignorant, superfacial and simplistic.
Next time, actually try to know what you're talking about before you talk.

[edit on 6-6-2004 by Jakko]

Im not Christian by the way. It is not just the Christian world that shares my views. And how are you sure that your friends were "born gay" (i use quotes because it is not a fact). Babies really dont have any sexual interest, or when they get older they will not remember!! Do you remember what happened when u were a baby? Im pretty sure you did not, unless you have a video of a toddler expressing homosexual desires then it is simple that people are not born gay, it is only the persons choice, and some of the environement.

Here is a religion Link:
www.biblestudygames.com...




[edit on 6-6-2004 by TACHYON]

Uhm wtf?
Babies have no sexual interest...
Do you even slightly understand what I am trying to say??

You were born straight. This does not mean your sexual interest started when you were born, it means that you were born in a certain way, and that this certain way became visible at a certain age.

This is exactly the same with gay people. They are born gay, but of course their sexual interest does not start when they are born, it starts whenever they reach a certain age.

How can I be sure?
Well how about talking to people that face these problems, something you've obviously never done.
When teenagers find out they are gay, their whole world collapses. They often become depressed, they fail to fit into any group, and they often think they are wrong or dirty, because of how they are. They know they can't change their bodies desire, even though they would do anything to become straight like the rest of the world.
Some people want to commit suicide because they're born gay.
It's never been a choice and it never will be a choice.

You're not the onlyone who thinks it's a choice or lifestyle.
It amazes me how much people still think it is...
You would think (it's 2004 now) that most people have a clue to what homosexuality is and what problems it brings into peoples lives, but no...
You're not the first who has no clue, and you probably won't be the last either.

About that link of yours...
The maker of that site is pretty ignorant, unaware, unwilling to find out truth and just retarded.
It's christians like that that give christianity a bad name.
If he'd have an email adres on his (unprofessional) site I would let him know just how wrong he is.