War in Ukraine is an ‘unmitigated disaster’

This interesting article and open letter (recently appearing in the NYT), signed by a group of ex military and National Security officials and academics is at least proof that not all Americans are insane neocon warmongers (despite appearances to the contrary on forums such as this). Amongst the most violent culture on earth where militarism is revered and war is often glorified, there are still wonderful, intelligent and sane people who haven't succumbed to the (obviously fake) national mythos or neocon propaganda.

The letter itself can be found here "The US should be a force for peace in the world". I don't entirely agree with it (Russia was given little choice in the end) and it doesn't detail the US orchestrated coup and backing of extremists, nor the non adherence to peace agreements and the ramping up of hostilities on Russia's border that directly led to their involvement in the conflict, but it does give a brief and relevant history of Nato from the end of the Soviet era.

Our attempt at understanding the Russian perspective on their war does not endorse the invasion and occupation, nor does it imply the Russians had no other option but this war.

Yet, just as Russia had other options, so too did the U.S. and NATO leading up to this moment.

The Russians made their red lines clear. In Georgia and Syria, they proved they would use force to defend those lines. In 2014, their immediate seizure of Crimea and their support of Donbas separatists demonstrated they were serious in their commitment to defending their interests. Why this was not understood by U.S. and NATO leadership is unclear; incompetence, arrogance, cynicism, or a treacherous mixture of all three are likely contributing factors.

The article itself can be found here. "National security experts: War in Ukraine is an "unmitigated disaster"

Interestingly for those who refuse to believe the "Nato will not move one inch to the east" assurances given by Secretary of State Baker to Gorbachev (and broken by every administration since), it links the transcript here (page 6 second paragraph).

Senior foreign policy experts have been warning for decades that the direction they are taking would lead to conflict, yet have been constantly ignored. It also looks at the reasons for ignoring the warnings in favour of NATO expansion.

Again, even as the Cold War ended, U.S. diplomats, generals and politicians were warning of the dangers of expanding NATO to Russia’s borders and of maliciously interfering in Russia’s sphere of influence. Former Cabinet officials Robert Gates and William Perry issued these warnings, as did venerated diplomats George Kennan, Jack Matlock and Henry Kissinger. In 1997, fifty senior U.S. foreign policy experts wrote an open letter to President Bill Clinton advising him not to expand NATO, calling it “a policy error of historic proportions.” President Clinton chose to ignore these warnings...

...Why did the U.S. persist in expanding NATO despite such warnings? Profit from weapons sales was a major factor. Facing opposition to NATO expansion, a group of neoconservatives and top executives of U.S. weapons manufacturers formed the U.S. Committee to Expand NATO. Between 1996 and 1998, the largest arms manufacturers spent $51 million ($94 million today) on lobbying and millions more on campaign contributions. With this largesse, NATO expansion quickly became a done deal, after which U.S. weapons manufacturers sold billions of dollars of weapons to the new NATO members.

These people also seem to understand that if the Russian state were to face imminent threat of being toppled from an outside enemy, they will consider nuclear weapons and they won't be heading to the Ukraine if so. As the only country to have used them to vaporise tens of thousands of innocent civilians (women, children and old people) the US should probably understand this threat better than others. It's a dangerous neocon game they are playing.

What is more likely though is that Biden (or whoever controls him, dementia usually seems to prohibit him from knowing what planet he is on) and hence the west will follow the path worn by Napoleon and Hitler before them in underestimating Russia. They have enormous support from much of the 90% or so of earth that isn't the "west" and who are eagerly awaiting the downfall of what has, for them, amounted to a system of exploitation, regime change and conflict. In the meantime they will have a multipolarity, with the other great power (China) that is far more important to the world's trade and economics and who seems to have little interest in colonialism or Empire building.

This isn't the beginning of the end for the west, probably about the halfway point. It might still be possible to turn things around, but not with neocon sociopaths at the helm. We have a serious lack of statesmen in the west, and a glut of corrupt leaders with "C grade" intelects (going back to at least Reagan in the US). Would be great if I could have no interest at all in the US or it's politics. Unfortunately any decision regarding foreign affairs in this little US protectorate is made in Washington. Will be a good day when that stops, and sovereignty begins.

Well to be fair I would also approve of a US led UN peace keeping mission to restore stability in the region by securing Ukraines borders, but I have a suspicion that Russia would disagree.

originally posted by: merka
Well to be fair I would also approve of a US led UN peace keeping mission to restore stability in the region by securing Ukraines borders, but I have a suspicion that Russia would disagree.

I have no doubt they would disagree, with some justification. They obviously don't trust the west (with good reason), nor would they trust so called "objective" institutions like UN. Especially after the debacle of a closely aligned institution (OPCW) claim of Assad using chemical weapons in Syria. The claims were a farce (they were briefed by the US prior to releasing their revised findings) as explained by whistleblowers who were on the original investigation. The UN itself appears politically corrupt, but the US ignores it whenever it likes anyway.

Russia is more set on halting Nato expansion to Ukraine and removing the Zelensky regime now. Direct negotiations between the US and Russia could potentially end the conflict, but won't happen while neocons are running things.


Here is some more interesting reading from Prof. Jeffrey Sachs.

"Ukraine is the Latest Neocon Disaster"

War is always a desaster. A desaster for the average people. Of course not for those who start wars to make profits with the suffering of the average people in war zones.

But the war in Ukraine isn't a disaster at all, its another well made money laundering scheme manufactured by our friends in government and bought and paid for with our broken private bank currency.


Those in power have been haughty Ukraine to launder money for years, and since slow Joe got expressed via his son they had to make an excuse to go execute anyone who might have details

War is great for them, anyone killed is just written off as part of war, and they can ramp up their money laundering and call it support.... then they can send equipment and watch the stock in the MIL rise

a reply to: Quintilian

Given the fact that Russia has shown itself to be utterly incompetent in its conduct of this war, with the Russian Army now being reduced to human wave assaults using poorly trained conscripts, I think that you are massively overestimating their capabilities.
This war has been a complete disaster indeed! For Russia.

Lol, what a joke. The best way to prevent this disaster would have been to be harder on Russia and not encourage their delusions of grandeur. Tough love.

Wars tend to be that way, especially for the poor folks caught in the middle of it.

That's why they're to be avoided whenever possible.

a reply to: Cutepants

What makes me laugh - quite hard - are all the people who believed the Russian propaganda about their hyper-super-advanced weapons. The Tsunami Torpedoes! The acres of T-14s! The huge numbers of Sukhoi Su-75s that they were going to build!
Yeah, right, of course they were. What are they using now again? T-55s in places, whilst their troops carry rusty AK-47s and even the odd Maxim or Nagrant?
The Russian Army is a joke.

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
a reply to: Quintilian

Given the fact that Russia has shown itself to be utterly incompetent in its conduct of this war, with the Russian Army now being reduced to human wave assaults using poorly trained conscripts, I think that you are massively overestimating their capabilities.
This war has been a complete disaster indeed! For Russia.

+1
I saw the title and thought this thread would be about Putin's idiocy.
how on earth are NATO / USA at fault here? this is entirely on Moscow.

originally posted by: Quintilian
Interestingly for those who refuse to believe the "Nato will not move one inch to the east" assurances given by Secretary of State Baker to Gorbachev (and broken by every administration since), it links the transcript here (page 6 second paragraph).

Shame on you for lying, Sir

Or could it have been an honest mistake? It clearly says that Baker told Gorbachev that they had mentioned it to Germany's Genscher who said he wanted to think about it. Why do you make this out to be any kind of promise?

originally posted by: Cutepants
Lol, what a joke. The best way to prevent this disaster would have been to be harder on Russia and not encourage their delusions of grandeur. Tough love.

Got to agree with CP here, just because Putin is more than a bit paranoid and believes NATO is encroaching and dreams of dissolving Mother Russia, doesn't mean the rest of the world has to buy into his paranoia

Ukraine was an irritant but it wasn't a threat of invading or dissolving Moscow, and the only way this war got sold to the West was by Putin invading. FWIW Biden did give him the green light by saying "Not one inch of NATO land" but Biden should have reiterated or whoever is running things should have made clear, we will not abandon the bulk of the Ukrainian people because Putin has issues with the 10 to 15% of those irritating him in the eastern provinces. The West will supply Ukraine with as much as possible, not only because we believe thier cause is just and fair, but because our MIC is tickled pink to have a place where they can showcase thier arms to the rest of the world, in real-time war.

America was a bit ambiguous on how much we would supply Ukraine and conversely, Putin underestimated the West's want to tap into the money-making chances a full fledge war in Ukraine afforded those in power. But even still it was obvious the administration need something to prop up the economy, nothing props up an economy like engaging in a proxy war. By plan or luck, everything lined up perfectly, and now there will be no negotiations till Russia returns to the previous borders and likely is expelled from Crimea as well.

Though Russia has looked inept and unprepared for its Special Military Operation this whole time, there should be no doubt if they get brutal enough they can achieve their territory goals the problem is at what cost? In a lot of ways they have already lost, NATO will no doubt rearm itself to the hilt as well as sooner or later admit as many countries under its umbrella as it can. There aren't exactly lots of countries lining up for the Russian way of doing things at the moment.

Regardless of money power and influence being obviously behind the American motivations in Ukraine, that doesn't mean it's the only factor in play either. If Russian and ultimately Putin were competent enough this eventuality was out there this whole time, one can only assume he thought this was his last chance. He made a mistake and I still believe his military leaders sold him they could take the eastern provinces regardless of whether NATO supplied Ukraine or not.

a reply to: Quintilian

As soon as i saw the name Jack Matlock linked with that article, i though " oh yes, this is the chap who believes that Crimea was always a part of Russia "

I then closed the article

He also believed The Soviet Union was right to try and place nuclear missiles into Cuba. We know which side of the fence he sits on.

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

I cant wait for the new, latest version of Russian infantry armour...

a reply to: Quintilian

Just listened to a retired general on the news and the unmitigated disaster is on it's way for Russia, because in war timing is everything.

still can't believe Biden dragged us into this. should have given them a penny. and he is STILL pumping the cash to them. funding violence and death aint cool or fiscally responsible

originally posted by: lordcomac
But the war in Ukraine isn't a disaster at all, its another well made money laundering scheme manufactured by our friends in government and bought and paid for with our broken private bank currency.


Those in power have been haughty Ukraine to launder money for years, and since slow Joe got expressed via his son they had to make an excuse to go execute anyone who might have details

War is great for them, anyone killed is just written off as part of war, and they can ramp up their money laundering and call it support.... then they can send equipment and watch the stock in the MIL rise

And in the meantime, Ukrainian, extra-national oligarchs @ globocap are buying up (Europe's) bread-basket agricultural land.

originally posted by: Salamandy
still can't believe Biden dragged us into this. should have given them a penny. and he is STILL pumping the cash to them. funding violence and death aint cool or fiscally responsible

Me either, check my history, but here we are. It's still up to Putin he needs to withdraw, if he didn't invade he wouldn't be in the fix he finds himself in. He thought he could get away with it, quick and easy no muss no fuss, he was wrong.

a reply to: Salamandy

Yes, how dare Ukraine not collapse in an instant after the Mega-Desk Dictator threatened them, told them that they have no right to exist and then sent an army of brutal murdering badly-trained incompetents into their land!
.
..
...
Hang on a second...

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

I see you have been taken in to believing what the usual lying mainstream news sources have been propagandizing. I watched a little of it on Fox news last night and according to them Ukraine is beating back the Russians.

Well, for your information, the Wagner group has just taken the last portion of Bakhmut from the Ukrainians.


Last night, I also watched a video from Bakhmut where a Russian missile, drone strike targeted a platoon (maybe a company of 12 soldiers) of Ukrainian soldiers that had just offloaded from an APC into a building. The strike wiped out the entire platoon.

Russia is using an ordinance I didn't even know existed. Termite artillery shells that rain down fire over vast areas. Damn, I'd hate to be caught out in the open when that mess rains down.

Ukraine isn't winning this war and it is them that is taking horrific losses, not Russia.

Oh, so sad that the neocons and warmongers have pushed Ukraine into this devastating conflict. The neocons and warmongers that instigated this travesty should be tried and shot for war crimes.