So What's Next?

a reply to: RAY1990

I know I'm being rude, it's just my immediate impressions of Europeans is not what I guess Europeans call Liberals (right-leaning) and in America right now we are being attacked big time for harboring even the slightest right of center views by the media outlets and even the Presidency (the Executive and Legislative) branches of our own Government.

Dividing our culture up calling us every name in the book... I first noticed this years ago coming out of Europe and very heavily in the UK with what they called ahem "student protests"

a reply to: TheRedneck

Then the flow of Russian LNG stops and suddenly Germany is firing up old coal plants, using the dirtiest fuel in existence.

Indeed, Europe while by listening to the war crazies US Elitists had shoot themselves in the foot and they still truly believe that they wont feel the consequences of this.

Some claimed that in Germany they are doing fine.
Well they might doing fine for now economically.

originally posted by: InwardDiver
a reply to: iamthevirus

Maybe. I don't know enough about the politics to make a decision like that. Maybe they are only our allies during tough times, maybe it's something else. I'd rather not see people die over the matter, this winter. Maybe we can make stronger allies and build better relationships if we help.

I'm just an armchair philosopher and barely politician, so my opinions aren't as educated as others on the matter.

It seems to me Europe is not willing to set aside the annexation bit and come to the table even for the sake of stopping the killing. It's is a lot to read through and I am quite new to the topic and the politics of this matter myself but that is what I am gleaning from it so far.

The killings have to stop, who cares who is the bad guys or who threw the first punch. I believe in diplomacy surely because the time has come and gone for a Knock-Out blow... I guess that is how I see things as an American, you punch me in the eye then I'm knock you the f### out! If I can't to that immediately (which the EU and Ukraine couldn't do) then there's no need to make everyone else suffer.

a reply to: InwardDiver

They lost... got their ass kicked by Putin, man up! go do some training/nation building and come back stronger.

What would they do if We the West wasn't here or couldn't help?

a reply to: iamthevirus

It's alright

I've got my own stereotypes too and I don't always put them to the back of the mind either. When I give in to the easy picture I've just let the MSM and any other sod who wants to tell me how to see things win though... Wouldn't you agree?

Dividing our culture up calling us every name in the book... I first noticed this years ago coming out of Europe and very heavily in the UK with what they called ahem "student protests"

If the culture is sound there's not a thing that'll knock it unsteady and we're all brothers and sisters us European stock... That includes Russian, we're far too interlinked to deny it. We're all humans making human constructs at the end of the day.

Let them have new ideas, practice your old ones positively. They'll soon see what's rust, corruption and veneer.

a reply to: RAY1990

All I can say is that I tend to notice toes get stepped on when people dance to a different tune

An apt analogy.

Diplomacy would the be the art of avoiding toes. That hasn't been happening.

Yep and there's some really interesting and malicious history involved there that I really can't be arsed to dig into. Maybe all the 'nuttiness' is a part of cleverly orchestrated propaganda and all of this is about power and money (duh)

I daresay I believe it is.

I don't care about that, I care about people falling for it and dying.

As do I.

How many casualties do you think a nuclear exchange would create?

Btw I've never been to Russia but I've met a few from the region over time, Ukraine/western Russia. I can talk for days about culture... I aim to learn.

Ah, I misread your post. I thought you had said you had been to Russia. My bad.

That puts us in a similar situation. I am a big fan of culture as well, and I have previously spoken about the Russian nationals I have known quite well.

The biggest problem I have with patriotism is when it's misguided.

The same here. And I believe unconditional support for Ukraine in this instance is one of those times.

For the record I don't think Putin was ever crazy per say, he's a highly intelligent man with a long-standing team around him.

I agree. There is IMO only one leader in this with mental difficulties, and he is not from Russia.

the Russian state and contradictions is one thing that stands out for me too. Remember the crack down on hackers before all this?

Russians are indeed a peculiar lot in many ways. The ones I have known were all a bit crude around the edges, easily given to a temper, fiercely proud of who they were, and yet kept a compassionate heart of gold beneath all that. In some ways they reminded me of my own culture a few decades ago.

The ones I have met are also supremely intelligent. Of course, they were in academia, so that is to be expected to a degree.

As for the crackdown on hackers... don't be fooled. They cracked down on hackers getting sloppy. Not the same thing.

TheRedneck

a reply to: InwardDiver

I am in favor of helping people as well, but such an act is moot when the people being helped do not learn from their mistakes. At that point, helping becomes enabling. Europe needs a solid energy policy instead of pipe dreams and wishful thoughts.

As for our own energy crisis, we did not have one two years ago. We actually had an energy surplus, but the price for that surplus (mean tweets) was too high. Now we are in the situation of needing to help Europe, but we are limited in what we can do by our own actions. You are completely correct when you mention we need to increase our use of our own fossil fuel resources.

One day, I suspect we will discover how to use truly renewable and generally pollution-free energy. One day. I keep looking for updates on some of the more promising new concepts. But to date, we do not have that capability. When we do, I will bid a happy farewell to fossil fuels.

The folly is trying to wish that day into existence before it comes. At present, fossil fuels are our best energy source. I fear that point will be driven home quite sharply come winter. I expect many to die of exposure. That's not a desire, just a prediction based on what I know about energy and what I hear from others. I actually pray I am wrong.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

My apologies for my poor wording. I want to keep my commentary on POW short. Such matters are a product of my lifelong interest in military history.

Indeed, Ukraine pledged not to return Russian POWs to their homeland against their wishes. That approach is a highly effective approach to ensuring unwilling Russian conscripts lay down their arms.

Those Russian POWs who wish to return home and who aren't facing war crimes trials should be returned to Russia. But if Russia follows Stalin's playbook, former Russian POWs will face reprisals upon their return home. But for those men who wish to remain, perhaps Ukraine could offer them residency in exchange for taking part in reconstruction.

Policing ethnic, communal, and sectarian hatred is a challenging task for anyone to undertake. But people's recent experiences with Russia's war in Ukraine will make that task increasingly difficult. A cycle of retribution between both sides could create an environment where reconstruction doesn't occur, and international support for Ukraine vanishes. Moreover, I hope I am incorrect and that matters don't flare up in post-war Ukraine.

The approach to reconstructing Ukraine will determine the outcomes. If the U.S. employs the methods used in Afghanistan, you might as well flush taxpayer money down the toilet. Around $2 out of $10 was spent on the projects assigned to the related private sector companies.

But if the international community follows the template of the Marshall Program, a path for the successful reconstruction of Ukraine. However, IMO, excluding Japan and South Korea's industrialised economies, the U.S. and other countries aren't likely to see the economic benefits from reconstructing Ukraine. For instance, if New Zealand committed a billion dollars to a related infrastructure project, the construction materials would be sourced from China.

Australia and New Zealand haven't signed up for that scheme, but your point is valid. For all our differences, I appreciate how you raise these matters. Moreover, room for Australian mining interests to invest in Ukraine will exist. But standalone, that situation where infrastructure is built to support the mining industry. But areas with no ties to mining are without sanitation, power and public water systems.

Also, I did not mention how Kraken and similar bodies will impact Ukraine after the fighting ends. In the mountains of trouble, those outfits will probably look to unseat the authority of local and national governments.

a reply to: xpert11

Using POWs who request asylum is a good idea, but I fear that may be a minor gesture. Ukraine will not be in a good place when all the fighting is over. A few POWs are not going to make much of a difference, although every strong back will help.

But if Russia follows Stalin's playbook, former Russian POWs will face reprisals upon their return home.

If Russia followed Stalin's playbook, Alex and Andy wouldn't be home in Alabama with their families right now.

There is a lot of talk about how savage and brutal Russia is with regards to Ukraine. But let's face something here: war is not a pretty thing. People get hurt and dead in war. That's the way war works: side A tries to kill side B and side B tries to kill side A. But outside the war zone, when there is no active fighting going on, Russia's actions toward their POWs has been exemplary. That's not the mark of another Hitler or Stalin, and I have a lot of trouble ascribing their personality traits to Putin.

Even in the recent barrage of bombings, in retaliation for what Putin claims were Ukrainian forces targeting the Crimea Bridge, the casualty count was... 14. Yes, that's 14 needless deaths, a tragedy each one, but considering how many deaths could have resulted, that number is shockingly low. It appears to me that Putin pulled his punch, targeting sparsely populated areas of the bombed cities. Again, that is not the mark of another Hitler or Stalin.

In the end, that might be our biggest mistake made: we seem to be fighting the ghost of Joseph Stalin instead of fighting Vladimir Putin. They are not the same person.

I can see assistance to Ukraine after this conflict ends... it will be needed. However, I do think that ultimately it is Ukraine's duty to rebuild Ukraine and no one else's. When charity becomes expected, it is no longer charity and no longer humanitarian... it becomes a detriment to the country being "helped." Also, true humanitarian charity does not come with strings attached, as in the mining example you give. True humanitarian charity is a gift with nothing expected in return.

TheRedneck

Spam

a reply to: PeaceSavior

What twat gave the spam bot a star?

a reply to: TheRedneck

The same here. And I believe unconditional support for Ukraine in this instance is one of those times.

Defensive in nature, there's conditions. I wouldn't have minded being a fly on the wall when that depot was attacked by a couple of attack helicopters.

I agree. There is IMO only one leader in this with mental difficulties, and he is not from Russia.

That's probably a fact although it doesn't seem to affect the ability of western intelligence services in regards to Russia and the conflict.

Russians are indeed a peculiar lot in many ways. The ones I have known were all a bit crude around the edges, easily given to a temper, fiercely proud of who they were, and yet kept a compassionate heart of gold beneath all that. In some ways they reminded me of my own culture a few decades ago.

To stereotype I'd say that's loosely a Eastern European trait, one guy I worked with who was Eastern Ukrainian had this traits... Never seemed to smile or get along with anyone, one day at work I showed up too early wanting a pizza and only he was in the kitchen, he's not a chef but in hearing my belly rumble proceeded to make me a pizza anyways. Best damn pizza I ever had.
We formed a little bond from that and whenever I popped in the kitchen and he was in he'd run over and say "I cook Ray's pizza" and nobody had the balls to tell him no! Haha.

He'd crack smiles after that, jokes and we'd share stories on ciggy breaks. Talk about his brother who could carry 55gal kegs... Btw this guy and a Lithuanian sweetheart were the only ones to ever go out of their way to help if they saw you shifting heavy loads, they know the joys of labour. Like I say I like old school. Anyways enough waffling.

As for the crackdown on hackers... don't be fooled. They cracked down on hackers getting sloppy. Not the same thing.

I'm not fooled. Its art of war stuff and I'm definitely not engaged in any of it. I'll just wait by the river

a reply to: TheRedneck

One of the goals of the Marshall program was to enable Western Europe and Japan's economic recovery. Also, the U.S. exported industrial machinery and related institutional knowledge to those areas. So I agree with the concept of the international community giving post-war Ukraine a leg up and not handouts. But in Ukraine, how industrial modernisation occurs, including training or educating the workforce and combating corruption, are matters for consideration.

Concerning Alex and Andy, they are an isolated case and not necessarily a reflection of how Russian authorities treat other POWs. But another possible complication would affect the release of POWS on both sides. If the fighting ends in Ukraine without an armistice, the conditions for freeing POWS might not come to fruition.

Who will investigate and document Russian atrocities in post-war Ukraine? Yet another matter going unnoticed in the mainstream media.

a reply to: xpert11

Concerning Alex and Andy, they are an isolated case and not necessarily a reflection of how Russian authorities treat other POWs.

That can be said about any report from POWs. Alex and Andy are two cases I have been able to keep close tabs on, and as such I consider their cases as the best information I have available to me. Local news is typically less restricted than national news, for the simple reason that I could drive an hour and meet Andy face to face! 2 1/2 hours and I could sit down and chat with Alex.

It's hard to concoct as much propaganda when the people involved have that kind of access.

Any stories I have heard thus far concerning bad treatment of POWs has been how future POWs might be treated, or how future POWs could be mistreated... those are not reports; they are speculation! Alex and Andy were there, and they were from what is considered a "minor" state. The chances are good that if there were any atrocities being committed on POWs, Alex and Andy would have been victims of that. No one over here really cares what happens to Alabamians, except maybe Alabamians.

Who will investigate and document Russian atrocities in post-war Ukraine? Yet another matter going unnoticed in the mainstream media.

The same people who have investigated and documented reports of corruption and oppression in Ukraine: no one.

To do so, we would first need an unbiased media. We do not have one of those. Any thoughts on where we could get one of those?

TheRedneck