The Absolute Power of Christianity!

Originally posted by spamandham
Sure it does. A positive would have been conclusive, but a negative is not. I'm surprised you don't already know that.

Okie dokie, I gotcha and am familiar with what you're talking about now. I didn't gather from your original statement that positive was even a possible outcome, and thought you were saying it would only be evident during occurence (making the tests pointless). My bad.

Originally posted by spamandham
It's possible that your new belief relieved your existential stress enough to end the night terrors.

...from that point forward because the negative experiences never happened again no matter how much stress came along (including a family attempted suicide, fringe of divorce and 9/11 all happening in the same weekend). Oh! Wait, I must be having seizures and night terrors in a good way, because now I'm getting a lot of direct and indirect communication with God as well. In addition... Wow! I'm surprised medical science can't pick up any of this on the radar since my head is so far out of whack.

Originally posted by spamandham
Saint, I don't know what happened to you, and I hope I'm not coming across as implying that I think I do. I'm just raising questions that it doesn't seem like you asked yourself.

Oh I did. In fact, tried to deny for a while because I had 'wants' where I felt God was getting in my way. Looking back, I would've really screwed things up if I did completely abandoned my experiences with recklessness. I never realized I'd get confirmations of those experiences years later.

Originally posted by spamandham
If I were a psychologist, I would suspect that your stress was existential in nature, which triggered night terrors. Your subconscious used that as a means of directly attacking the source of the stress resulting in the night terrors taking the form of god.

But I did not run into God.

Originally posted by spamandham
Since you live in a predominantly Christian culture, "god" told you to look toward the Bible.

Nah, that was after all this happened.

Originally posted by spamandham
I suspect that someone else pushed you to get testing (probably your parents),

My parents were too busy with my rebel older syster. They had no idea the things I was interested in, nor plans of suicide when I had them, etc. The testing was due to an unrelated incident. I passed out one time (about 2 years later) and they freaked, taking me to the hospital. Doctors say it's normal to faint now and again. I probably got up too fast or something.

Originally posted by spamandham
and that's why you didn't ask a lot of questions about how conclusive such tests are.

I require verification. It's not good enough that stuff happens once, I want it to be verified and reverified. This is a shortcoming in faith, not a strength. That's what I mean by being a skeptic. God goes (not literally, but figuratively summarized here) "how many times do you have to see it before you get it?". I'm like "Derrr....uhm, sorry God, you're right again." This kind of exchange or resistance on my part causes drag when I should be focusing on doing my work.

Originally posted by spamandham
...but I'm not a psychologist and I don't know you, so I'm probably way off base.

I applaud the attempt, it's important to test things out to see if they fit. Believe me, I'm not trying to intentionally shoot down what you're saying. If you want to say I was stressed during that time, yes, I was, but only after Satan found an 'easy-in' by my stupidity and willingness to accept whatever came down the pipe that could prove itself. I've been close to 2 nervous breakdowns (not related) because of high stress but seizures, night terrors, or anything else were not involved. I know what my mind is capable of doing under stress. Most of it is physical - shaking, loss of appetite, restlessness, lack of sleep, but there is some mental too - drop in self esteem, fear of failure, feeling of impending consequence, etc. What I'm saying is having experienced both sides of the house, I can say what the difference is between the rooms. I had no idea I had so many experiences until talking with you here, so I guess this is healthy for me to explain these dividing lines.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by saint4God
Doubt can be one root for sin, I can see that. There are other roots though such as fear, anger, selfishness, jealousy, vengence, etc.

Not really. These are trigger factors that expose doubt, they aren't the root. There is no amount of fear, anger, selfishness, jealousy, vengence, etc. that will convince me I can defy gravity. Under the right circumstances I might jump (burning building), but at no time would I believe I could get away with it.

I've lost the analogy somewhere. How is sin related to gravity again? Maybe a re-position would help me out.

Originally posted by spamandham
...like natural explanations for apparently supernatural experiences?

I guess one would have to experience both the natural and the supernatural experience to define the difference.

Originally posted by spamandham
In my case, I was raised Christian. I believed since I was itty bitty because my parents, pastors, teachers - people I trusted, told me it was true, and I had no motivation to check out for myself if it really was true or not. I was credulous, just like everyone. I still am. I still find myself accepting things that affirm what I want to be true without investigation even though I know I shouldn't.

So then you accepted by trust what was true without experience. I can certainly respect that (and sometimes wish I could come to the same end without having to mentally re-live some of those experiences). What changed?

Originally posted by spamandham
I suppose that depends on the question. Most people are not even asking the right questions IMHO. You should be questioning whether the questions you want answered even make sense.

Alrighty. The question "Is there God?". How long should one search for the answer?

Originally posted by spamandham
I actually agree.

Hehee! First, we as Christians "can't agree on anything" now we're "in this together". I wonder if we get bonus points on ATS for saying the word....conspiracy *shiver*.

Okay, so. Let's talk about conspiring:

Main Entry: con·spire
Pronunciation: k&n-'spIr
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): con·spired; con·spir·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French conspirer, from Latin conspirare to be in harmony, conspire, from com- + spirare to breathe
transitive senses : PLOT, CONTRIVE
intransitive senses
1 a : to join in a secret agreement to do an unlawful or wrongful act or an act which becomes unlawful as a result of the secret agreement b : SCHEME
www.m-w.com...

Now let's take Christianity and compare. Secret agreement? I thought per this thread that Christians won't shut up. Which is it?

Unlawful and wrongful act as a result. Well, considering the source of Christianity (God and his son as teacher and saviour), let's see what they focus on: being good, doing what it right, love you neighbor, love your enemy, obeying His law (which coincidently fits quite well with our own). Hmmm... as it seems here, Christianity would be the Anti-Conspiracy.

Originally posted by spamandham
I don't know why you can't seem to grasp that non-crazed people have these experiences. If Paul or yourself did have night terrors, that doesn't make you nuts. It's just a glitch in the brain where the wall between dreams and consciousness gets breached. Everyone seems to be susceptible to this under the right conditions. Temporal lobe epilepsy is a medical condition, and also not a form of insanity.

Paul and I would have to be continually affected on a waking and daily basis for that to be possible. Unlike the ufo that came and went, I'm living with God each day, talking with and often getting responses from Him. Therefore I must have some kind of more permanent condition that is abnormal...that which people like to call "crazy". I'm continuing to have Temporal lobe epilepsy or night terrors even as we speak? Should that not have been picked up by the medical radar if I was having it at the time and as a lasting condition?

Originally posted by spamandham
"It is you who say so."

Hehe. Your hands are clean huh? If you want to say it, I won't get upset. If it makes you feel more candid, then by all means do . I think you've been certainly polite and respectful enough with the implications to come out and say it while we continue the conversation as normal.

I'd like to give a shout out to all you other Jesus Freaks and Crazy for God peeps out there, can I get a "Woot!"? How has the "Absolute Power of Christianity" worked in your life?

[edit on 23-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
I've lost the analogy somewhere. How is sin related to gravity again? Maybe a re-position would help me out.

It isn't an analogy at all, but a demonstration of true belief vs. claimed belief. I truly believe in gravity, and do not doubt its existence. I act in accordance with that belief. That statement is true for almost everyone.

Contrast this belief in gravity with religious belief, where it is universal to act in a way that contradicts purported belief. If you truly believed god was watching everything and you truly believed you would be held accountable (though not necessarily loss of salvation), you would not overtly sin. You might still inadvertently sin, but never with intent.

Originally posted by saint4God
So then you accepted by trust what was true without experience. I can certainly respect that (and sometimes wish I could come to the same end without having to mentally re-live some of those experiences). What changed?

I read and studied the Bible. It's amazing that anyone could remain a Christian after having actually studied it. This is the single greatest reason most people leave Christianity from my experience, with some form a personal tradgedy runnnig a close second.

Originally posted by saint4God
Alrighty. The question "Is there God?". How long should one search for the answer?

That isn't the right question. The right question is "what is god", followed by "does my definition imply an absurdity". Only when you have a meaningful definition of god does it make sense to start asking if such a thing exists. If you'd like to save some trouble, the answer to the second question is "yes".

Originally posted by saint4God
Now let's take Christianity and compare. Secret agreement? I thought per this thread that Christians won't shut up. Which is it?

You aren't part of the conspiracy, those who wrote/compiled the Bible were.

Originally posted by saint4God
Well, considering the source of Christianity (God and his son as teacher and saviour), let's see what they focus on: being good, doing what it right, love you neighbor, love your enemy, obeying His law (which coincidently fits quite well with our own). Hmmm... as it seems here, Christianity would be the Anti-Conspiracy.

The primary message is obedience to authority. God first, and earthly masters second. Conveniently, it was those same earthly masters who informed us of what it is god wants. The high correlation between religious faith and patriotism is not coincidental.

Originally posted by saint4God
If you want to say it, I won't get upset. If it makes you feel more candid, then by all means do

. I think you've been certainly polite and respectful enough with the implications to come out and say it while we continue the conversation as normal.

Ok then, I think you're nuts.

Just wondered what you all thought of this:

Bible Textbook For Public Schools

I think this is going to be taught in English class. So it's more to teach people about the bible, and what it says, rather than a religious point of view.

[edit on 23-9-2005 by shaunybaby]

Originally posted by saint4God

I'd like to give a shout out to all you other Jesus Freaks and Crazy for God peeps out there, can I get a "Woot!"? How has the "Absolute Power of Christianity" worked in your life?

[edit on 23-9-2005 by saint4God]

Woot! to you Saint4God.

How has the "Absolute Power of Christianity" worked in your life?

Well i`d have to give a background of my life before asking Christ into my life,I grew up with parents that were`nt religious though i remember a KJV bible on its own standing in a lounge room cabinet.

My Dad was an Engineer and always had the impression he was embarrassed by me even from as early as 5 years onward,he wanted perfection from me in almost everything,example=as an 8 year old after school i went into his workshop garage in our yard,found some bits and pieces and began to make a go cart,from my sisters old pram i got the wheels and axles,cut some chip board for the base and some ply for the T bar,an old seat attached a rope for steering,drilled a hole and bolted the T bar,then i was stuck,how do i secure the axles to the frame?Well the only thing i could think of was to nail along the axle and hammer the nails over the axle`s.That done and proud of the resemblance of a go cart i rolled it out the workshop heading toward a nice hill in front of our house.

Just then my Dad came home from work and we meet,he looked at what i made and fire started coming from his eye`s he grabbed me by the neck holding my head down close to the go cart whilst yelling instructions on what i did wrong,he then demonstrated what a poor job i had done by smashing the go cart under his heel.Get the picture of my childhood?it gets worse but no need to go there.I`ve forgiven him(nothing sexual by the way)

Well the older i got the more i began to hate,i`d hate anyone that represented authority,well my life spiraled down because of the hate and the friends i had hated also but not for any reason as far as i could see,the friends i grew up with would steal cheat lie vandalize,though i did lie refused the rest but i fitted in because of my hate so i was accepted.

By 17 my friends were alcoholics drug uses,i did smoke a bit of pot on occasion`s i could count them on one hand though.3 guys i grew up with committed suicide,one because after he got out of jail for armed robbery no one wanted much to do with him family especially.

One time we were all around a friends house,he went inside for something and started having an arguement with his Dad my friend got punched through the front window and he ran towards the fence which was about 6 foot high,he jumped as high up it as he could lost his balance and fell back down his Dad had been in hot pursuit with a hockey stick and started bashing his head in with it.I got him to stop and my friend got up and started walking down the road,i ask him where is he going?and that he needs an ambulance!!,his face and clothes covered in blood he said i`m going to the Pub(tavern),this made me start thinking of these friends sanity.

I thought maybe my Dads not so bad after all,there`s always something worse or somebody worse of,also that i`m nothing like these people i hang with,my Dad was abusive but in his weird way was trying to make me into the best i could be,even though his way of teaching was lacking to say the least.

It was around the same time i began to question whether there was such a thing as good and evil and more to the point God,i looked for him in everything people nature law family etc,i can not in words explain what i saw that struck me the most with terror other than the light that was on my friends and my self was dark and dirty but i saw it,i was terrified to realize that i was on the wrong side of God or fence.

I ran home to my parents home and grabbed that Bible of the cabinet sat on the lounge and opened to anywhere and read the word of God for the first time,now what i read i`ll leave only for my closest of friends,so in reading the depth and authority of God i bowed in embarrassment and with my soul offered it to God to forgive me of all the crap i`ve done and that Jesus His Son i know had died for me that i knew from watching an Easter program from when i was about 8,bright light filled everything around me i was blinded by its brilliance and felt like i was struck across the back of the head and i landed on the ground from the lounge i was sitting i felt totally pure weightless of grief and hate.I finally realized that i found an authority that deserved my full respect.

Not belonging to a church or knowing what to do from there i would find comfort in the words of the Bible and in prayer of the relationship i had now formed with Christ and God,i went to tell my friends they were at our favorite watering hole what has happened to me,they only needed to look at me to see i was totally different,it was a summers night and i began to tell them what has happened outside in the beer garden,so there was about five of them as i proceeded more people joined to listen and asked questions until there was about 15 at least 5 of those had tears rolling down their face from the sincerity of my confessions and commitment that i had given to Christ.
That might not sound strange to some but these guys would hospitalize a person for looking at them the wrong way and so would i to a degree.

One guy said to me "you are the only person i can truly respect"i smiled at him and replied" its not me your respecting its who i respect that you are seeing".

That`s about as much eviedence anyone can provide,you either see what God can do for a person you know or you ask him into your life and he will if your heart is right and for him,would you expect anything less from God?.

That was 24 years or so ago so to cut it shorter i`ll just say i found a church was baptized of full immersion and then alot of fun success and difficult times i`ve had since.

So what has it done for me?i find rest in the knowledge that i`m one of Gods own through his Son and all the benifits that intails,now i still get angry at things be it myself, politicians. Law, Judges, Law makers, some Teachers, Ministers ,Pastors, Parents, Hooligans etc,the difference now is i know who to measure their Authority against.

Oh and if you forgot already Woot! Saint4God and other Jesus freaks my Bro`s.

[edit on 24-9-2005 by gps777]

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Just wondered what you all thought of this:

Bible Textbook For Public Schools

I think this is going to be taught in English class. So it's more to teach people about the bible, and what it says, rather than a religious point of view.

[edit on 23-9-2005 by shaunybaby]

There's another thread on this already, but it does seem relevant here as well. Expect lawsuits if public schools adopt it. Although you could legitimately explore the Bible from a literary perspective, to devote an entire course to the subject changes the equation. While that might be legitimate for a literary major at the secondary level, it is not legitimate at the high school level. The clear intent of such a course is to place greater emphasis on the Bible than on other ancient works.

For legitimate high school literary study, the Bible would take no more than a couple of weeks or so of concentration, alongside other ancient religious and political writings, preferably in chronological order to demonstrate the devlopment of literature over time.

i think it must be a pretty good read, as it cost $2 million to fund, and well it's nice to have so much information in one book. the fact that it's for english classes means it won't interfere with sciences etc. i think it's main aim is to teach people about the bible, how it was written, why it was written, when it was written, what it all means etc...but not from a religious point of view...from an outsider's point of view, which i think is good.

there was a link on some site to jay leno and a sketch he did when he talked to people on the street to find out how much they knew about the bible. and well even people who claimed they were religious, didn't seem to have a clue what was in the bible


Jay Leno sketch

the problem is, we shouldn't just be learning about what the bible has to say. sure it's important, but doesn't half look like people are ignoring every other religion. then again is there time to go through and teach about 'all' religions. there's not enough time to go through the main religions in depth in all honesty.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i think it's main aim is to teach people about the bible, how it was written, why it was written, when it was written, what it all means etc...but not from a religious point of view...from an outsider's point of view, which i think is good.

I suppose I can't critically assess the program without actually examining it, but if those are its objectives, much of the information simply doesn't exist or is inconclusive, so there's no way they could have put together an objective program.

Most of the writers are unknown, the dates of the texts are disputed, "what it all means" asumes a cohesive collection, which it isn't, etc.

The biggest problem I have with this is that it presumes the Bible is worthy of an entire course of study to the exclusion of other ancient works. Most of the New Testament consists of rambling personal letters and diatribes - hardly worthy of literary study. Much of the Old Testament is lists of geaneologies and laws, also not worthy of literary study.

To be objective from a literary perspective, it would need to be only part of a study of multiple ancient works.

Originally posted by spamandham
It isn't an analogy at all, but a demonstration of true belief vs. claimed belief. I truly believe in gravity, and do not doubt its existence. I act in accordance with that belief. That statement is true for almost everyone.

Are you saying if there's ever any doubt then it's not a true belief?

Originally posted by spamandham
Contrast this belief in gravity with religious belief, where it is universal to act in a way that contradicts purported belief. If you truly believed god was watching everything and you truly believed you would be held accountable (though not necessarily loss of salvation), you would not overtly sin. You might still inadvertently sin, but never with intent.

Sometimes we want something so badly, we rationalize a way in our minds that it will be "okay by God", when it was made clear it is not. A Christian can lead so heavily on salvation that s/he feels no weight of consequence. This is a problem.

Originally posted by spamandham
I read and studied the Bible. It's amazing that anyone could remain a Christian after having actually studied it.

Thank you for calling my experience amazing. I appreciate that. I find the Book quite amazing myself.

Originally posted by spamandham
This is the single greatest reason most people leave Christianity from my experience, with some form a personal tradgedy runnnig a close second.

The first (primary problem) was something in the Bible, and a close tragedy close behind. Is that what you'd experienced?

Originally posted by spamandham
That isn't the right question. The right question is "what is god", followed by "does my definition imply an absurdity". Only when you have a meaningful definition of god does it make sense to start asking if such a thing exists.

Okay, I can accept that approach. Fortunately for us, the Bible is a description of what God is. I think it's an easier question than "Does God exist", but that's my perspective. From the Book, we can see that God is love, that he's merciful but just, the creator, good, wise, and so forth.

Originally posted by spamandham
If you'd like to save some trouble, the answer to the second question is "yes".

I think it's too easy just to slap "absurd" without explaining why. It then appears to be an emotional conclusion instead of an analytical one (though not saying that's the case).

Originally posted by spamandham
You aren't part of the conspiracy, those who wrote/compiled the Bible were.

Well, I'm glad you've taken me out of it. That's fine. Don't go to the Book, go to Him. But, if He sends you back to the Book, don't say I didn't tell you He would . I think you and I are a lot alike on this one. I personally could not go to a book to find God. I had to go to God and get instruction there first.

Originally posted by spamandham
The primary message is obedience to authority. God first, and earthly masters second. Conveniently, it was those same earthly masters who informed us of what it is god wants. The high correlation between religious faith and patriotism is not coincidental.

Patriotism to what country? (Keeping in mind Jesus saying, "My kingdom is not of this earth")

Originally posted by spamandham
Ok then, I think you're nuts.

Thank you, I feel better now that we're saying what we think without politically-correct inhibitors. From another point of view, I can see how my personal history looks like I'm nuts. Unfortunately, I cannot say that I think you're nuts, because we think too much alike .

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Just wondered what you all thought of this:

Bible Textbook For Public Schools

I think this is going to be taught in English class. So it's more to teach people about the bible, and what it says, rather than a religious point of view.

This is interesting shaunybaby, thanks for bringing it up. I'd like to see what comes of it. I hope I can one in the near future.

Originally posted by gps777
Well i`d have to give a background of my life before asking Christ into my life,I grew up with parents that were`nt religious though i remember a KJV bible on its own standing in a lounge room cabinet.

Just then my Dad came home from work and we meet,he looked at what i made and fire started coming from his eye`s he grabbed me by the neck holding my head down close to the go cart whilst yelling instructions on what i did wrong,he then demonstrated what a poor job i had done by smashing the go cart under his heel.Get the picture of my childhood?it gets worse but no need to go there.I`ve forgiven him(nothing sexual by the way)

Well the older i got the more i began to hate,i`d hate anyone that represented authority,well my life spiraled down because of the hate and the friends i had hated also but not for any reason as far as i could see,the friends i grew up with would steal cheat lie vandalize,though i did lie refused the rest but i fitted in because of my hate so i was accepted.

By 17 my friends were alcoholics drug uses,i did smoke a bit of pot on occasion`s i could count them on one hand though.3 guys i grew up with committed suicide,one because after he got out of jail for armed robbery no one wanted much to do with him family especially.

It was around the same time i began to question whether there was such a thing as good and evil and more to the point God,i looked for him in everything people nature law family etc,i can not in words explain what i saw that struck me the most with terror other than the light that was on my friends and my self was dark and dirty but i saw it,i was terrified to realize that i was on the wrong side of God or fence.

I ran home to my parents home and grabbed that Bible of the cabinet sat on the lounge and opened to anywhere and read the word of God for the first time,now what i read i`ll leave only for my closest of friends,so in reading the depth and authority of God i bowed in embarrassment and with my soul offered it to God to forgive me of all the crap i`ve done and that Jesus His Son i know had died for me that i knew from watching an Easter program from when i was about 8,bright light filled everything around me i was blinded by its brilliance and felt like i was struck across the back of the head and i landed on the ground from the lounge i was sitting i felt totally pure weightless of grief and hate.I finally realized that i found an authority that deserved my full respect.

Not belonging to a church or knowing what to do from there i would find comfort in the words of the Bible and in prayer of the relationship i had now formed with Christ and God,i went to tell my friends they were at our favorite watering hole what has happened to me,they only needed to look at me to see i was totally different,it was a summers night and i began to tell them what has happened outside in the beer garden,so there was about five of them as i proceeded more people joined to listen and asked questions until there was about 15 at least 5 of those had tears rolling down their face from the sincerity of my confessions and commitment that i had given to Christ.
That might not sound strange to some but these guys would hospitalize a person for looking at them the wrong way and so would i to a degree.

One guy said to me "you are the only person i can truly respect"i smiled at him and replied" its not me your respecting its who i respect that you are seeing".

That`s about as much eviedence anyone can provide,you either see what God can do for a person you know or you ask him into your life and he will if your heart is right and for him,would you expect anything less from God?.

Phenomenal! Simply phenomenal. The great thing about knowing God, is each of us who do have a story to tell as to why and how we obtained our personal proofs.

I'll abridge mine, though I don't like to because it is a long, and on-going experience. I didn't have a regular church-going family. Firstly, I refused to believe anything existed outside the human realm, be it God, Zeus, Satan, whatever, unless it would be willing to show me. This was very depressing. I'd contemplated suicide and planned it out, though knew it'd be hell on my parents if I did. Well, in one of my more angry days, I challenged any of these deities to come to the table else I'd believe nothing and would therefore have proof nothing existed. This was very stupid. Do not do this. One of the party showed up with the "if you have to see to believe, here I am, now bow down and worship me!" kind of thing. Very, very impatient. After a month of torture from sleeplessness, paranoia, fear, anger, hate as a result of his appearance to me, I got some advice. One was from a pastor, who I thought was nuts (this is why I can say I understand where you're coming from spamandham), blew him off and went on my way. In desparate times, a person considers the most outlandish things in a struggle to be free. He told me how to be saved, which is similar to what my signature link says: Believe in God, ask for forgiveness for your sins, accept Jesus Christ as his son, our saviour and teacher. Instant success, I was freed as you said gps777. When the pastor said 'saved' I was concerned about been saved from the devil at that time, didn't really fathom eternal life, heaven, etc. It was quite a joyous experience. I knew God existed. I knew I had eternal life, and it was a free gift. That my friends, was just the beginning...

Oh and if you forgot already Woot! Saint4God and other Jesus freaks my Bro`s.

And the people in Hizzouse say "Woot!" to God, amen.

I'd like to hear other's experience with the "Absolute Power of Christianity" if willing too.

[edit on 26-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
The great thing about knowing God, is each of us who do have a story to tell as to why and how we obtained our personal proofs.

This is a very interesting point: 'why and how we obtained our personal proofs'. I choose to believe in evolution not because; I had a vision, had a near death experience, had some sort of lobe epilepsy, had some sort of sleep paralysis or had some out of body experience...I just used 'my' head to 'think' about the world around me, and think is it possible some higher being made all of this, and the answer for me is no.

Question 1: why is there a need for some sort of 'experience' for you to obtain that 'personal proof' that god exists?

Question 2: If you do have some sort of 'experience' that is closely related to a type of epilepsy, sleep paralysis or out of body experience, then why do 'you' feel the need to attribute that to a god/gods?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Question 1: why is there a need for some sort of 'experience' for you to obtain that 'personal proof' that god exists?

Because I'm a skeptic. I have a hard time accepting things I'm told. Some people don't need to be whacked upside the head to see straight, but I ain't one of them.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Question 2: If you do have some sort of 'experience' that is closely related to a type of epilepsy, sleep paralysis or out of body experience, then why do 'you' feel the need to attribute that to a god/gods?

I didn't feel a need to attribute anything to God. The change was His doing, I just asked to go along for the ride.

[edit on 26-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Because I'm a skeptic. I have a hard time accepting things I'm told. Some people don't need to be whacked upside the head to see straight, but I ain't one of them.

but that's my whole point. why if you see some flashing lights in the sky would someone ever think it was aliens? or why if you have some sort of 'experience' do you then say that is your personal proof for god's existence. the same as seeing a ufo is another person's personal proof for aliens existence.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
but that's my whole point. why if you see some flashing lights in the sky would someone ever think it was aliens?

I wouldn't, so I wouldn't expect them to either.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
or why if you have some sort of 'experience' do you then say that is your personal proof for god's existence. the same as seeing a ufo is another person's personal proof for aliens existence.

The example is way too distant. If the analogous ufo landed, an alien got out, slapped me on the face and said "Look dummy, I exist!", then I'd add them to the -Believe they Exist- list, after investigating medical possibilites. This does not have to happen for people to believe aliens exist, but as I said I'm proof driven foundationally.

Now, if someone came to me with the claim that aliens exists and told me how to get proof of my own, I think that'd be worth listening to.

you say you're a skeptic, yet you also say every christian has their individual story of how they came about their personal proofs. a skeptic should question experiences, not attribute them to god. sure you might say you don't attribute your experiences with god, that led you to your own personal proofs, so what did lead this 'skeptic' to god?

Because I'm a skeptic. I have a hard time accepting things I'm told. Some people don't need to be whacked upside the head to see straight, but I ain't one of them.

Gee Saint, I thought I was the only true skeptic. Got that way because of what our gov't propagandized during Vietnam.

More need to be skeptical of what's told. Such as the Iraq mess we're in. People should have been paying attention to what was told them. "Iraq has the capability of hitting us in 40 minutes." the man said. However, they had no delivery system capable of over 500 miles!!!!!

I am both spiritual and skeptical. I have had no divine light come to visit me, I have not bore witness to demons, devils, spirits. I have seen no evidence of magickal workings or rock solid proof of various phenomenon.

I question and bear suspicion upon those who claim to have experienced god directly, particularly in the manners being described. I also question myself concerning this response.

SpamandHam: Note that the various paradigm shifts as the physical laws came into being could be considered "Absurd" in how things operated in those femtoseconds. Absurdity does not necessarily insinuate that a thing is not true.

saint4god: I don't need to speak to god to know that a Creator exists, I see evidence in all things, particularly humanity. Likewise, if I had an experience like your own, I would not be able to fully accept that it was God, even if I were to believe. That self doubt is the difference between myself and most people. I cannot believe that I know anything, that is the path to extremism or self delusion... and self delusion can be a pleasant paradise for many.

I serve the Creator in such faculty that I ask questions, and try to find questions that have not been asked that should be. I serve him by offering the flesh of self to others, that they might taste of it and find wisdom. Should I be devoured in the process, at least others might taste of those I have touched and find the path up the mountain.

I am not important as I am, I am only important as I can assist others in enlightenment and the path to the Divine Existence. Firm positions on anything insists on a closed mind, and a closed soul to growth. I choose to grow in all directions.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
SpamandHam: Note that the various paradigm shifts as the physical laws came into being could be considered "Absurd" in how things operated in those femtoseconds.

We don't know how the physical laws arrose, and so there is no reason to assume an absurdity.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Absurdity does not necessarily insinuate that a thing is not true.

Of course it does. However, if there were an actual absurdity, it would not appear as such to us, as we are not capable of perceiving such a thing.

In my speculative musings, I sometimes wonder if in fact nothing exists. This is actuality if actuality involves absurdities. Logical existence is a subset of absurd nonexistence, since there is nothing within absurd nonexistence to prevent it.

Originally posted by spamandham

We don't know how the physical laws arrose, and so there is no reason to assume an absurdity.

There's also no reason why we could not, and it is not scientific nor logical to assume that the universe must arise logically.

Which is, of course, how we would parse a being that doesn't obey logic or causation. Reductum Ad Absurdum is something humanity is good at.

Also, no, it does not.

In my speculative musings, I sometimes wonder if in fact nothing exists. This is actuality if actuality involves absurdities. Logical existence is a subset of absurd nonexistence, since there is nothing within absurd nonexistence to prevent it.

I was at that phaze at one point a few years ago... the "I think nothing is real" situation. However, what you said at the end is that Logic itself is an absurdity in a realm of absurdity's, Logic becomes an illusion to tenaciously cling to.

This doesn't mean nothing exists, this only means that consentual reality becomes a possibility, and that certain subsets of the universe don't obey our laws.

Welcome to string theory and the Theory of the Layered Universe.

Shauny

Originally posted by shaunybaby

I choose to believe in evolution not because; I had a vision, had a near death experience, had some sort of lobe epilepsy, had some sort of sleep paralysis or had some out of body experience...I just used 'my' head to 'think' about the world around me, and think is it possible some higher being made all of this, and the answer for me is no.

I think it safe to assume that its not just evolution or creation that is a block between God and yourself,God will not reveal Himself to you simply because you believe your mind is Greater than His.But its good for you to search just dont rule Him out from the answers your searching.

Question 1: why is there a need for some sort of 'experience' for you to obtain that 'personal proof' that god exists?

If not for personal proof,why have a personal relationship,but its that catch 22 you have to believe first,so keep searching Shauny.

Question 2: If you do have some sort of 'experience' that is closely related to a type of epilepsy, sleep paralysis or out of body experience, then why do 'you' feel the need to attribute that to a god/gods?

If you read my testimony above is that what you would consider i had?
and that this epilepsy,sleep paralysis out of body experience as you put it was just a coincidence at the exact time i asked God into my life?

You can ask all the questions you like Shauny but unless you knock on His door He wont answer,and nothing any Christian says will be enough for a none believer who believes Christians to be mentally ill,it could be argued that was the case before being a Christian and if thats true there`s a lot of mentally ill people running around, you just happen to be one of them Shauny from God`s perspective.

You could yell "ya all brainwashed" its more than that, soul mind and all,you get an instant thorough cleaning, set on super wash cycle,God says when a person confesses and repents from sin He takes them and throws them as far as the East is from the West and He remembers them no more.