The Absolute Power of Christianity!

...which is why I think it's important to get that information before going to the grave. How?

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
My husband is a Christian and hethinks all the above is crap, should not be. I know more Christiasn that do not think tha way.. ever thought that maybe, just maybe some of the people pushing for those lwas are PROTESTANTS...liek Pat Robertson and Billy Graham... and there is a big difference between a protestan and a christian, tho they are clumped together in the same bag.

Uhm, protestants are Christians. But Catholics (which is what I assume you mean by Christian since you don't think protestant count?) push for this stuff too. Not so much the creationism nonsense, but the rest of it.

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
Anyway, I dont see how there is a threat coming to the laws, after all the Supreme court just ruled you have to remove "under God" from the Pledge of Aliegence,

Do you really trust 12 individuals to hold back the theocratic demands of millions? At any rate, the Supreme court didn't make that ruling, but you can bet they will be forced to address it. The last time it came up they dismissed the case on a technicality, and may well find a way to do that again.

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
yet when you go to court you have "swear to tell the truth the all thruth and nothing but the truth so help you ..." who ??? ...GOD !

You are not required to make any such pledge. You can substitute an alternative affirmation of honesty.

Originally posted by spamandham

You are not required to make any such pledge. You can substitute an alternative affirmation of honesty.

Oh i know that, i was juts pointing out the stupidity of the all thing... how can you remove God form one thing and leave in the other... i guess eventually they'll get to that part...

Originally posted by spamandham
I have known all kinds as well, and have never met anyone in person who claims to have had the type of experience you've had. Shall I conclude they don't exist? If such experiences are uniformly distributed, I would expect mostly Christians to have them in the west since the west is predominantly Christian. The question then is, do people of other faiths, and do people in other parts of the world have such experiences that lead them to Budhhism, or to Islam, etc? That's the question a skeptic would try to answer, and not just from the people you've met, but with research that's readily available.

I'm not opposed to research, but feel it needs to be focused. In other words, do you have something in particular in mind besides daily life/friends and ATS? I don't know many other opportunities to meet people who are willing to discuss such things.

Originally posted by spamandham
It isn't a matter of testing, it's a matter of research. Testing is only conclusive when it shows a positive. The lack of a positive is not sufficient to eliminate these possibilities, particularly for night terrors. But even for milder cases of temporal lobe epilepsy (which are sufficient for hallucination), testing may show nothing unless you are hooked up when it happens.

Why then did all the PHD's do it then? Makes no sense.

Originally posted by spamandham
No, it was probably the high stress you were experienceing at the time. Stress is known to trigger night terrors.

And I scientifically cured myself by believing in God . Anywho, I guess ya had to be there...but as you said, it wouldn't make any difference to ya.

Originally posted by spamandham
Actions follow belief. If you are not acting as if you believe, it's because you don't believe. Very few individuals actually believe based on this. What you find are lots of people who claim to believe, and want to believe, and who are trying to make themselves believe - they believe they believe. I believe in gravity. My conscious actions demonstrate that belief without exception. How many of those who claim to have faith act consistent with that faith?

Interesting. Sounds almost pastoral, like from James 2:14. Still though, I can't claim to know anyone else's heart but my own...and I don't really wanna template that on to anyone else . It could be as you say, I don't know.

Originally posted by spamandham
"Sin" results from doubt, not from defiance. Doubt is natures way of telling you that you don't really know what you think you know. If you ever "sin" with intent, it's because you don't have the faith you claim you have.

Doubt can be one root for sin, I can see that. There are other roots though such as fear, anger, selfishness, jealousy, vengence, etc.

Originally posted by spamandham
Once you realize this, you can free yourself from the Christian meme. However, the meme will forbid you from admitting it.

I think understanding doubt can help one's relationship with God, not having to drive one from it. Just because a person has doubt, doesn't mean the truth disappears, it just means they've lost a piece of what had convinced them in the first place. Or, perhaps there's something new to learn about a fact. Or, perhaps a fueled fear of being wrong is stronger than the acceptance of what right. Or, perhaps...

It is important to analyse onself. Us introspective people (you and I) can learn a lot that way, but cannot absolutely rule out possibilities until we're certain.

Originally posted by spamandham
That's right. One day I woke up and decided not to believe anymore.

I didn't mean overnight. In fact, I don't think we're going to be able to connect at all on the topic unless we get specific. I don't know if you want to do that here, but would welcome it or U2U if you want.

Originally posted by spamandham
Loss of faith (the belief that you believe really) is painful.

Yeah, it is.

Originally posted by spamandham
No-one chooses to quit believing anymore than they choose to believe.

You didn't choose to believe in the first place? How were you made to believe initially?

Originally posted by spamandham
Loss of belief stems from exposure to contrary evidence, just as belief stems from affirming evidence. If you want to continue to have faith, you either have to shelter yourself from other positions, or build a wall based on speculation to rationalize away all the obvious conflicts.

I'm not a fan of rationalizing through a situation and am glad you didn't either. My question is, at what point does a person give up on finding the answer?

Originally posted by spamandham
The book did not come from random authors,

I said many, not random . This Christian doesn't believe in random.

Originally posted by spamandham
but from the leaders of the church, or confirming works of anonymous authors selected by those leaders. It should not be surprising that it meshes together (to the degree it does) for that reason.

It's a conspiracy! That outta keep the mods throwing the thread into BTS for a while . Well guess what, I've had the God experience too (and am certainly not the only one) to validate what those authors have said over many thousands of years and two-thousand years afterwards. No club membership required, no shipping and handling, no money down or due at any time! Operator is standing by so CALL NOW!

Originally posted by spamandham
Even Paul, whose experience reads like a textbook night terror episode, did not write his letters until after he had become a church leader.

Reminds me of the Quite Riot song: Mama we're all crazy now! o/~


How many people can you say were off their rocker? Well, so far you've included everyone in the Bible, every Christian since, and me. Wow, I guess we are all crazy now .

[edit on 23-9-2005 by saint4God]

Well, an interesting conversation between saint and spam. Spam who has not had been lucky enough to meet up with GOD or one of his messengers tries to dismiss saint's experience as some sort of medical condition.

Well, I also met up with GOD one night. I was wide awake, not on drugs, and really quite shocked when it happens. When one gives up on GOD one gives up on themself.

That is why I am concerned when someone is a non "knower". Notice I said "knower" and not believer. All the evidence is right there in front of one's face when he or she looks into the mirror. Why does a mass of gobblygook walk, talk, and upon the ceasing of existence in their physical self lose the light in their eyes?

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
hmmm... sahring is not forcing... if i share a cake with someoen Im not focing the person to have it, Im simply saying ..." i have a cake, and I want to share it with you, do you want some?" ...

forcing would be " I have a cake, nbow open you damn mouth so i can shuv the cake in"

That thar was funny

Good illustration though, thanks for keeping it real

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
For asking my question about extra-terrestrials. I just did want to confirm that the existence of such would be made by the almighty creator of this universe.

Yah. A lot of time when JJ answers, I don't have to. Kinda gives me a break. Props to Jake! It's good to clarify these things I think, I'd not want anyone to miss my meaning because of my writing. Nice perspective on your most recent post too! A true thinker.

Okay okay, I'll get off the thread now. Didn't mean to be on so much, but am caught up to date. Who goes next?

Originally posted by saint4God
Why then did all the PHD's do it then? Makes no sense.

Sure it does. A positive would have been conclusive, but a negative is not. I'm surprised you don't already know that.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by spamandham
No, it was probably the high stress you were experienceing at the time. Stress is known to trigger night terrors.

And I scientifically cured myself by believing in God

It's possible that your new belief relieved your existential stress enough to end the night terrors.

Saint, I don't know what happened to you, and I hope I'm not coming across as implying that I think I do. I'm just raising questions that it doesn't seem like you asked yourself.

Your responses suggest you have not taken a skeptical perspective toward your experiences, and still are not. If you have, you are holding back talking about it, which is certainly your right, but in that case you could have simply said up front that you don't want to discuss it. Your responses on this subtopic come across as apologetic - you seem to have concluded what you wanted to conclude and examined only the perspectives that affirm the desired outcome rather than searching for clues that counter the desired outcome.

If I were a psychologist, I would suspect that your stress was existential in nature, which triggered night terrors. Your subconscious used that as a means of directly attacking the source of the stress resulting in the night terrors taking the form of god. Since you live in a predominantly Christian culture, "god" told you to look toward the Bible. I suspect that someone else pushed you to get testing (probably your parents), and that's why you didn't ask a lot of questions about how conclusive such tests are. ...but I'm not a psychologist and I don't know you, so I'm probably way off base.

Originally posted by saint4God
Doubt can be one root for sin, I can see that. There are other roots though such as fear, anger, selfishness, jealousy, vengence, etc.

Not really. These are trigger factors that expose doubt, they aren't the root. There is no amount of fear, anger, selfishness, jealousy, vengence, etc. that will convince me I can defy gravity. Under the right circumstances I might jump (burning building), but at no time would I believe I could get away with it.

Originally posted by saint4God
It is important to analyse onself. Us introspective people (you and I) can learn a lot that way, but cannot absolutely rule out possibilities until we're certain.

...like natural explanations for apparently supernatural experiences?

Originally posted by saint4God
You didn't choose to believe in the first place? How were you made to believe initially?

In my case, I was raised Christian. I believed since I was itty bitty because my parents, pastors, teachers - people I trusted, told me it was true, and I had no motivation to check out for myself if it really was true or not. I was credulous, just like everyone. I still am. I still find myself accepting things that affirm what I want to be true without investigation even though I know I shouldn't.

Originally posted by saint4God
My question is, at what point does a person give up on finding the answer?

I suppose that depends on the question. Most people are not even asking the right questions IMHO. You should be questioning whether the questions you want answered even make sense.

Originally posted by saint4God
It's a conspiracy!

I actually agree.

Originally posted by saint4God
How many people can you say were off their rocker?

I don't know why you can't seem to grasp that non-crazed people have these experiences. If Paul or yourself did have night terrors, that doesn't make you nuts. It's just a glitch in the brain where the wall between dreams and consciousness gets breached. Everyone seems to be susceptible to this under the right conditions. Temporal lobe epilepsy is a medical condition, and also not a form of insanity.

Originally posted by saint4God
Wow, I guess we are all crazy now

.

"It is you who say so."

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
That is why I am concerned when someone is a non "knower". Notice I said "knower" and not believer.

It makes no sense that people should be held accountable for what they know. This is just as silly as holding people accountable for what they believe.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
Why does a mass of gobblygook walk, talk, and upon the ceasing of existence in their physical self lose the light in their eyes?

Why not?

With great power comes great responsability. Whether you want that responsability or not, it is yours; knowledge is power. You can use that for good or for evil, and you have to choose. There is no neutrality. You have great power, Spamandham, just as Saint4God does. You must choose how to use it, or you will be used by it.

Originally posted by junglejake
With great power comes great responsability. Whether you want that responsability or not, it is yours; knowledge is power. You can use that for good or for evil, and you have to choose.

Questioning your own position, as well as the positions of others, is good, not evil. Truth is not obtained by fiat, but by chiseling away falsehood.

I never said it was evil. I just stated that you are accountable for what you know, like it or not. With awareness comes responsibility. You can choose to do something about it, or you can sit back and ignore it. You decide which of those options would be good and which evil based on the awareness. I am aware that the rim around my monitor is black, but I choose to do nothing about it. Evil? Hardly. Yet I am also aware of a schism in the Church that goes against Christ's wish for a unified Bride. If I sit back and ignore that, that is evil.

It makes no sense that people should be held accountable for what they know.

I am happy to be held responsible for what I know. One's spiritual growth is in direct correlation to what one wishes or does not wish to bring in. It is the refusal to "bring in" that greatly hampers any type of education in any field.

If one had GOD sit next to him on the bus(as the song goes) and he presented an ID would one still refuse to know? Or would one try to dismiss it as some sort of post hallucenagic(sp?) episode?

I suppose that depends on the question. Most people are not even asking the right questions IMHO. You should be questioning whether the questions you want answered even make sense.

I agree that most are not asking the right questions. However, this unfortunately is because they listen to man which is only 1/3 spiritual, and the rest mortal. Therefore after listening to man or man's teachings they do not know what to ask for they have been "programmed" into a certain way of belief.

I'm not saying this in itself is bad. However, where the problem begins is when these teachings are taken at face value and they are unable to offer or accept dissent when their interpretation could be entirely different.

"Denying GOD is denying yourself"

Originally posted by spamandham


It makes no sense that people should be held accountable for what they know. This is just as silly as holding people accountable for what they believe.

If people aren't accountable for what they know, what they will be accountable for ? What they dont know ?

People HAVE TO BE resposible for what they do and know. Specially for what they do after they know if they should do it or not.

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
If people aren't accountable for what they know, what they will be accountable for ? What they dont know ?

How about being responsible for what you do?

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
Specially for what they do after they know if they should do it or not.

It's a given that culpability involves knowledge, but is the action, not the knowledge that is the issue.

Assuming there were such a thing as free will, what you know and what you believe are not within your ability to choose, so it makes no sense to hold people accountable for them.

You might as well hold people accountable for being born into the wrong family and then justify it by saying "they should have chosen a different family, I did". Then when they complain that they had no choice in the matter, you just keep repeating that they did have a choice and use your own family as proof of such "choices".

Originally posted by spamandham
How about being responsible for what you do?

That's what we're saying. You are imparted knowledge. You are responsable for what you do with that knowledge. If you choose to do nothing, you are responsable for that choice. If you choose to do something, you are responsable for that choice. You are responsable for knowledge imparted to you, therefore, because you will have to choose to act or not act, and how you will act based on that knowledge.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
If one had GOD sit next to him on the bus(as the song goes) and he presented an ID would one still refuse to know? Or would one try to dismiss it as some sort of post hallucenagic(sp?) episode?

That depends on whether or not god is omniscient and omnipotent. If he were, he would have the ability to give you knowledge in such a way that you would not question it. Whether or not you have knowledge of him is up to him, not you.

If He forces you to love Him, you don't really love Him. If He forces you to obey, you don't really obey.

He gives us free will, and He gives us all a chance to come to know him with as much or as little evidence as it will take to make us believe. However, we have to choose to believe, and to take that information He has given us and accept Him for who He is. Only through belief can deeper understanding come.

Originally posted by saint4God
How we get the two confused I'm not certain but have my suspicions.

Could you explain?

Originally posted by saint4God
I'm not saying they don't matter. Life is significant. As far as whether or not they exist though, I don't see where that has a bearing on whether or not God exists unless someone will believe when they provide proof positive.

That was my point about Aliens being "God". Another miscommunication?

Originally posted by saint4God
God is pretty clear who He is. God himself describes his thinking as "alien" to our own. However there's other things to consider, such as us being created "in his image" and all the active role he plays in our daily lives.

Hmm you didnt really understand what I meant. Not that God is "alien", but that "God" is an Alien.

Originally posted by saint4God
Speaking of suicide...

Dont even get me started on that conspiracy...