It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Coronavirus, Herbs and the Cytokine Storm

page: 2
34
<< 1    3  4  5 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 25 2020 @ 12:33 PM
link   
a reply to: DBCowboy

I've had that happen with B vitamins, but only them.

Since I don't eat enough veggies, I'll stick with my supplements.
NOt sure about the extra stuff in this thread.

Thoughts on this post in another thread??
Is humidity why there are few flu epidemics in the summer....and what is the temp in China right now? I just checked...in Wuhan it is currently 39F.
www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Jan, 25 2020 @ 12:57 PM
link   

originally posted by: DontTreadOnMe
a reply to: rickymouse
What about the EPA in good quality fish oil??



The oils in fish are anti-epileptic. So is the oil, but sometimes the oil gets oxidized and it does not work right. They are saying fish oil is a super food chemistry....think about that. Anything they tout as superfoods actually dopes us. Bacon grease also calms people, so does the Keto diet. The keto diet helps people to fight the flu too, I just read that on a science site. Here is one such article. www.medicalnewstoday.com...

We eat mostly Whitefish from Lake Superior here, it's levels of the oils is not as good as salmon, but is almost the same. The Whitefish in this lake has a little more oils than the normals they test, because it is cold. Here is a chart of the levels of these oils in fish. Remember though that I said that Lake Superior is cold. The levels are comparable. Whitefish is more expensive than farmed salmon though, it has risen considerably in price over the last ten years. It is comparable to alaskan salmon in price, but around here the Whitefish is usually pretty fresh and the wife likes it way better than salmon.

seafood.oregonstate.edu...

I would rather eat fish than take a fish oil pill. I guess that matches my genetics. According to Ancestry I am like ninety eight percent Fin and one percent baltic and one percent sweede. But when they ran my data through the Heritage site, it comes out one percent swede, one percent baltic, and ninety six point three Finn, with one addition...the remaining one point seven percent is Eskimo/iniut. Damn, no wonder my best friend was an alaskan Indian when I was in my twenties.
I have a gene that Asians have, the only thing it seems to effect is that I pee out lots of salt. It is a Y linked gene, and my daughters are not iniut at all, so it must be on my fathers male side. Type NO haplogroup markers.

Now that I am part eskimo, I wonder what seal meat tastes like. Maybe it will make good Cudighi.
The only Italian in me is the Cudighi I ate a couple of days ago on the pizza.



posted on Jan, 25 2020 @ 04:23 PM
link   

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: DontTreadOnMe
a reply to: DBCowboy

How many people do you know that do that?
That [possible GMO] potato you ate last week.....how many nutrients were lost since it left the [possibly nutrient depleted] soil??

Supplements and herbs are not "snake oil".


Most supplements and additives we put in our body are rushed to the kidneys and flushed from our system.

There's a threshold to what "supplements" our body can maintain without doing more harm than good.


Your advice is sound.

IMHO a small handful of say 25 Rose Hips simmered and mashed in water with a tablespoon of coconut flakes added...then strained 2x thru coffee filters to ensure no small hairs from the inside of the Hips are consumed.....once you have this beautiful Rosewater simmered and filtered I personally add a tablespoon of raw unpasteurised unheated honey.

When you enjoy a mug of this Rosehip Tea with an added liposomal carrier you allow your body to uptake the optimal volume of Vitamin C that it can uptake...the bioavailability math is available out there somewhere but the liposomal carrier makes a massive positive difference.

Yes your kidneys have to flush whatever you intake and if you intake say massive doses of Vitamin C tablets with a glass of water every day...youir kidneys will be working overtime.

However if you do manage your intake properly and allow optimal absorbtion the Vitamin C will break down in your bloodstream and create o2.Viruses don't do so well in o2 rich environments.

You hit your body with a highly bioavailable some say 80%+ dose of Vitamin C that breaks down into oxygen while in the bloodsteam . Its a purge.

I am not a doctor or medical person but this is what I do for myself personally.



posted on Jan, 25 2020 @ 07:30 PM
link   
a reply to: one4all

What ever works for you, you should do.

I would only caution against the idea that taking massive doses of "whatever" to fight off the flu or any bug could have adverse affects.



posted on Jan, 25 2020 @ 10:09 PM
link   
a reply to: DBCowboy

I think most of us that follow alternative/nutritional healing know that

Not going to take 30,000IU of vitamin D or anything.

But thanks for the reminder....some may not know.



posted on Jan, 25 2020 @ 10:30 PM
link   

originally posted by: DontTreadOnMe
a reply to: DBCowboy

I think most of us that follow alternative/nutritional healing know that

Not going to take 30,000IU of vitamin D or anything.

But thanks for the reminder....some may not know.


You'd be surprised.




posted on Jan, 25 2020 @ 10:34 PM
link   
a reply to: DBCowboy

I guess so.
I do research....sometimes quite a lot of it, some things I run past my D.O. or chiropractor, who has some training in nutritional healing.



posted on Jan, 26 2020 @ 12:37 AM
link   
Here is a good article, I knew of the protective effective effects and restoritive effects of taurine, but this article actually makes it simple to see how it works. Now, if you have a diet rich in taurine or consume all the minerals and vitamins needed to produce it, taurine will not help much unless a genetic defect or liver problem blocks the creation or usage of it by our bodies.

www.sciencedaily.com...



posted on Jan, 26 2020 @ 06:03 AM
link   
The best defense is a good offense.

Keeping your stomach and blood PH levels on point....eat anti-parasitic foods that you are sure contain the vitamin and mineral loads you expect from them regularly in your diet....drink clean mineralised water with zero chlorine or chloride [trigger chemicals for Pleomorphic Bacteria we mistakenly call cancer]in it.....keep bleach(trigger chemical for Pleomorphic Bacteria we mistakenly call cancer) out of your home and life find another cleaning agent there are many .

Learn what type of enemy you will be fighting as you seek good health and longevity and understand it is a Human enemy not Mother Nature....the scale and scope of the misinformation and organised lies is GLOBAL ...this is the first thing we all need to aknowledge and remediate.

Proving the lies and misinformation are Global and multi-generational in scope is extremely easy to do.

Once you know what you are up against the tide changes to your favor.....once you rescind your BLIND TRUST....then you begin to regain your Personal Power...and you begin to find your way as you begin to see the truths all around you that have been hidden and suppressed....things get much easier very quickly once you re-set your TRUST LEVELS.

Its a slippery slope indeed....Eg.

Some say...Tumeric cures cancer.If anyone tries to follow this or follow up on it they encounter a massive volume of grey noise. Confusion.Lack of notable impacts.Possible negative impacts.....lots of things are terribly wrong with this statement...although at a grassroots level it is correct.

Remember you have an ENEMY TRYING TO SCREW YOU @ every corner of your lifes Journey...never forget that....never forget it is the Rich Global Cabal....soooo....if you take a large dose of Tumeric in any form it can carry negative impacts....your enemy knows this and they know if they can get you to make yourself sick or uncomfortable even once you will likely ignore all future attempts at natural healing and will also tell all your friends it does not work.

I say Tumeric can be a part of a bigger plan of action that can remediate what we mistakenly call cancer.

Small amounts of Tummeric eaten WITH black or white pepper is a good anti-parasitic....it doesn't kill all parasites but it does kill some...which is a huge positive step towards good health and longevity.

The Tumeric and pepper work together sympathetically.You only need a very small amount of both.....as in as many shakes of Tumeric as you normally use for Pepper....not bloody huge Pills of Tumeric with no Pepper.

However we need to kill ALL PARASITES ASAP...not only the few a Tumeric/Pepper unity will kill.

We need to clear the entire body of parasites and regularly police our normal and new infestations and then we need to balance the body and blood PH levels.

Remember the Four Bees.....Belly-Blood-Body-Brain...for these are the 4 areas we must police and take care of....and each has its own specific requirements...we must remember that a Pleomorphic bacteria can be attacking multiple areas up to all 4 in overlapping timelines....meaning treatments that must be specific to each area can and do CONFLICT...which muddys all the waters completely......in many many cases conflicting treatments weaken the body terminally...all of these areas must be treated in a symbiotic manner.....in a vanilla baseline focused non-explosive methodology....we do not want large contrasts to be manufactured that can lead to environments sympathetic to things like the aforementioned Cytokine Storm.

Every single Natural remedial suggestion you will find concerning cancer and major illnesses that people say works or helps will lead you directly to the parasitic connection to the pleomorphic bacteria we mistakenly call cancer.

We know what a Tumeric/Pepper unity does to parasites.

Lets try my theory out OK?.

Native Indians say that a Sweatlodge will cure cancer and major diseases...I say that using a Sweatlodge as a small part of a bigger plan to remediate the pleomorphic bacteria we mistakenly call cancer is a good idea.

I say that the temp internal/external that WE ARTIFICIALLY TAKE OURSELVES TO BY PROVIDING LIFESAVING HYDRATION VIA STEAM ….KILLS ALL STAGES OF PARASITIC LIFE IN OUR BODY...EGGS---BABIES-JUVENILES-ADULTS.....it kills them all at once in all 4-B;s.....this purge allows our Auto-Immune System the longer term parasite-clean chance to get the advantage and do its job unimpeded.

Today we can use sealed environments to easily do this same thing as we use Intravenous supplements to ensure hydration/safety.

If you use this situation as a launching point from which you provide a consistent anti-parasitic inclusive sugar starved natural diet with truly mineralised plants that supports balanced belly PH and Blood PH and Body PH and Brain PH along with lots of mineralised poison free water you will have found remediation.

The Blood/Brain Barrier presents some challenges...but is not insurmountable....properly managed Magnesium L-Treonate and Beef fat will help out immensely...as will the Ayahuasca sympathetic plant combination.

The general protocol for every single Human on Earth as we speak is the same.....purge the body of all Parasites and bad bacteria and viruses....then and live a PH balanced fully Mineralised lifestyle...that is centralised around a constant and consistant intake of natural plant based anti-parasitics…...purging the blood of negative impacts caused by a Pleomorphic Bacteria is a normal part of this protocol ...so when we police the Blood regularly we cut off viruses at the pass no matter how virulent they happen to be...we are in essence a Loaded Bear-Trap when we are optimally healthy and fortified...and things like Ebola and Zika and the Coronavirus don't have a chance of overcoming our defenses and killing us...the weak and unbalanced unhealthy parasite infected and Pleomorphic Bacteria infected masses will succumb to these viral contagions quickly....its best to be prepared by making your body into a natural food mineral and Vitamin based minefield for pathogens and viruses.




edit on 26-1-2020 by one4all because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2020 @ 10:10 AM
link   
When all else fails, we have new meds ...such as steroids ... since the 1918 to combat the cytokine storm.
Please note this is NOT a medical site
www.americanthinker.com...



posted on Jan, 26 2020 @ 05:43 PM
link   
a reply to: DontTreadOnMe

This is a really interesting topic, having flashbacks to immunology. Influenza A and CoV can suppress T-cell signaling, now I have to research if they influence regulatory T-cell function. If they block down regulation of the immune response the virus would be able to overcome host defenses just like if it were evading the immune system. The problem here is that they want to reproduce, they need to spread to other organisms before killing the host. Ebola and hemorrhagic fevers do it too quickly, luckily for us but it would help explain the ability for a coronavirus or avian influenza to overcome an above average immune system and spread to others.

Steroids would be a double edged sword, balancing between inflammation and spread of infection. If we create a drug or signal bound to antibody to down regulate as soon as BP drops and temperature spikes we can intervene before heart rate is compromised and they begin to shut down. They do this in mice, I just have to find the journal articles.

Great topic.

ETA: I was talking to a PA and MD recently about a change in treatment protocol for viral lung infections. They used to always give prednisone with viral bronchitis and pneumonia, they stopped due to evidence based data suggesting the benefits do not outweigh the risks. I do know they still prescribe other steroids for croup and epiglottitis and severe cases of pneumonia due to airways compromise.

edit on 26-1-2020 by TheAMEDDDoc because: Added detail



posted on Jan, 26 2020 @ 10:08 PM
link   
a reply to: TheAMEDDDoc

What are your thoughts on the cytokine storm this virus apparently releases, and what the best defense would be?
Something about TH1 and TH2, and that they are opposites. Since some inflammation can be good for healing, but not in this case.

Thanks.



posted on Jan, 26 2020 @ 10:30 PM
link   
originally posted by: DBCowboy
originally posted by: DontTreadOnMe
a reply to: DBCowboy

DBCowboy: Most supplements and additives we put in our body are rushed to the kidneys and flushed from our system.
There's a threshold to what "supplements" our body can maintain without doing more harm than good.

Soil mineral depletion is a real thing; but taking pill forms of nutrients is not in the best interest of the body to absorb. High concentrations can cause kidney and liver failure. I take super food alternatives." Terrasoul Superfoods" manufactures high quality Root, leaf and fruit powders (Noni, Maca, Acai, Gogi to name a few) that provide an alternative to fake mass manufactured "vitamins". Another would be super food Brewers Yeast (TwinLab) that will be absorbed and not be flushed by your body. Any oil cod even krill could be a toxic inflamatory if rancid. I also take carbon60 diffused in olive oil and Apex silver water.
edit on 26-1-2020 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 27 2020 @ 09:21 AM
link   
a reply to: DontTreadOnMe

This will be something I need to research more, it’s caused by abnormalities in signaling between infected tissue, regulatory T-Cells and cytotoxic T-Cells combined with signaling of the innate immune response which basically napalms infected tissue rather than targeted elimination like B and T cells.

Do you have library access through an employer or university?

I did find some information on supplements and treatments focusing on reviews and meta/analysis articles rather than specific studies. Overall, I’m not worried even though I am increased risk for experiencing a cytokine storm with history of asthma as a child, reflux/hiatal hernia with PPI use, used to smoke, nice stuff that could make my lungs freak out.

www.ajol.info...


In one study, thiamine deficiency was identified in 35% (n=79) of patients with septic shock.[47] Thiamine supplementation versus the use of a placebo in this subset of patients has been shown to reduce hyperlactaemia and lead to a survival difference in relation to time to death.


Helpful for malnourished and alcoholic patients.


Vitamin C administration is purported to confer mitochondrial protection through its antioxidant effect.[46] It is also believed to improve microcirculatory flow, as well as restore endothelial integrity, and similar protection is suggested with vitamin E, zinc and selenium.[49-52] Selenium and zinc contribute to the scavenging of free radicals and should thus reduce oxidative damage to cells and tissues. They should be provided as per the daily recommended allowances.


Zinc may also help with preventing viral binding to cells which works in the mouth with cold eeze, I guess you could inhale it. Honestly it’s seemingly worked on me before, taking as directed, not inhaling, but I have no way to confirm why, placebo, weak illness etc.


A recent single-centre retrospective study compared an intravenous regimen of high-dose vitamin C (1.5g q6hr), thiamine (200 mg q12hr) and hydrocortisone (50 mg q6hr) with a control group that did not receive thiamine or vitamin C.[53] There were 47 patients in each group. Vitamin C and thiamine were administered for 4 days and the hydrocortisone for 7 days, unless the patient was discharged before these timeframes. The cohort that received this regimen exhibited less organ dysfunction and a significantly reduced mortality.


These are cool studies that cross into an ethical issue because we know high doses of vitamin c can destroy blood cells, mess with kidneys and cause vitamin c deficiency in babies if mom takes too much during pregnancy.


Pharmacological agents such as coenzyme Q10, melatonin, glutamine and L-carnitine are currently being explored for their role in metabolic resuscitation. Melatonin in particular has been shown to reduce oxidative stress and improve mitochondrial function in sepsis.


I love melatonin and have taken the others. I use it daily and give it to my son daily to help alleviate his chronic low serotonin levels from Autism Spectrum Disorder/Epilepsy. Everyone has a different dose, be careful with other supplements like 5-HTP etc so you don’t get a rebound effect.


In critically ill patients, the microbiological milieu changes drastically in the gut, such that the actual number of organisms and their virulence is altered. [...] During critical illness there is a shift that favours the growth of Proteobacteria (such as Pseudomonas aeruginosa and Escherichia coli) and certain bacteria of the Firmicutes phylum (Staphylococcus aureus and Enterococcus spp.).



This dysbiosis, which is the disruption in the normal dynamics of the microbiome, results in harmful host outcomes.


Supplement with healthy gut bacteria supplements to maintain the natural flora. I love how small changes make some host responses freak out like those people with autoimmune disorders that introduce a small amount of helminths into their system to treat the disease because the inflammatory response can focus on that rather than target the host. How clean we are now is one of the primary driving forces behind many autoimmune diseases.

I’m curious about this too now, off to find more specific information on herbal remedies and the specific signaling cascade that causes these issues. Looks like I’m not the only one, many of the articles are focused on theories.

Beta blockers and filtering the blood also show promise as treatment protocols.



posted on Jan, 27 2020 @ 10:51 AM
link   
a reply to: TheAMEDDDoc

I have no access to libraries you mention, only the internet.
And, hopefully articles on the less technical side.

I have read that some things we normally take for colds and flu can have a bad effect on cytokine storms.....echinicea, goldenseal, honey [due to the sugar].

I'll read your link and thanks for the interest.

FYI....this guy is an herbalist and certified nutritionist.....non-mainstream info
There also seems to be fewer articles about coronavirus and cytokine storm, although I have read this virus is releasing the storm. Are all cytokine storms alike?
www.donnieyance.com...

edit on Mon Jan 27 2020 by DontTreadOnMe because: (no reason given)


Also interested if yo come across info on these supplements....ie their their effectivenss/safety in preventing/minimizing the cytokine storm
N-Acetyl L-Cysteine (NAC)
Standardized Andrographis
Turmeric
Zinc [lozenges...for short term use ONLY]
Oregano Oil [capsules]

edit on Mon Jan 27 2020 by DontTreadOnMe because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 28 2020 @ 04:43 PM
link   
a reply to: DontTreadOnMe

I did find this website:

the-health-gazette.com...

It lists a bunch of go and no go supplements for viral infections. Skimming through it a bunch of it is solid, garlic, green tea, vitamin C. One guy in the comments was angry about mucous production, he’s right but too much could be bad especially with underlying illness.

What I’m trying to find is this woman’s research or similar evidence based data that is peer reviewed, makes it legitimate:

Herbal remedies may deliver anti-inflammatory drugs


An Australian National University scientist is analysing herbal medicines in search of compounds that reduce potentially fatal inflammation in people suffering diseases such as influenza. The research, by Lisa Alleva, of the School of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, could lead to drugs to treat the severe inflammation triggered by the body's natural immune response to invading viruses, bacteria and protozoan parasites.


She could have some solid data if she was able to publish viable research.

Many herbal remedies do have similar pharmacological effects like drugs, otherwise the FDA wouldn’t ban or regulate them. One I love is Valerian Root, it is a natural benzo and helps you relax or sleep, very weak but still effective.

The problem with many herbal supplements is regulatory standards and what is actually in them, if you purchase them, make sure they are certified by a lab that verifies the integrity of the supplement through random sampling.



posted on Jan, 28 2020 @ 05:23 PM
link   
I found one of her published articles:

Using Complementary and Alternative Medicines to Target the Host Response during Severe Influenza

Don’t mind that it’s about influenza, she references SARS as well, both of which can cause a cytokine storm.


It is now generally accepted that the infectious agent in isolation does not cause the illness and fatal outcome seen in acute systemic infectious diseases. Instead, the pathogen induces host cells to generate excessive amounts of pro-inflammatory cytokines, the prototypic example being tumor necrosis factor (TNF), that alter organ function and host metabolism, thus generating the disease we observe (1,2). This general concept, originally proposed to describe the severe disease caused by malaria infection (3), then sepsis (4) and influenza (5), has taken root in the mainstream, and is now often referred to as the ‘cytokine storm’ (6).



Ginseng and Salviae (28) have been trialed for their abilities to improve influenza vaccination outcomes with good results, and may also modulate cytokines to reduce immunopathology during influenza infections.



influenza virus-infected mice were given the traditional Chinese medicine Yiqi Qingwen Jiedu Heji (31). Researchers found that this treatment reduced expression of the cytokines TNF, IL-6 and IFN-γ in the lungs of FM1 influenza-infected mice, all of which are implicated in inflammation, and increased levels of the anti-inflammatory cytokine IL-10, the combined effect being a shortened course of influenza disease



Glycyrrhizin, an active component of liquorice roots, when given to mice from one day before infection with influenza virus (H2N2), protected all treated mice from fatality while all control mice died (33). What is most interesting about this result is that glycyrrhizin binds to, and inactivates, the novel pro-inflammatory mediator High Mobility Group Box 1 protein (HMGB1) (34), which is elevated in the serum of sepsis patients who succumbed to infection



aqueous extract of the Chinese herb Angelica sinensis (Dang Gui) is dose-dependently protective during lethal experimental sepsis and endotoxemia (37). Ninety percent of mice were saved during lethal endotoxemia (when only 30% of controls survived) when the extract was given daily, and 70% of mice were saved during lethal sepsis (when only 25% of controls survived) when the extract was given daily.



the aqueous extract of another Chinese herb, Salvia miltiorrhiza (Danshen), traditionally used to treat cardiovascular disorders, was also protective against lethal endotoxemia and sepsis by decreasing HMGB1 levels in vivo (46). As for the Dang Gui extract, the Danshen extract was administered 24 h after the onset of sepsis yet still rescued mice. As a potential anti-influenza treatment Danshen may have a double-pronged attack, as it also possesses anti-viral activity



Artemisinin, a Chinese herb traditionally used as an anti-malarial drug, has been shown to possess potent anti-inflammatory effects via inhibition of NF-κB (49). It, too, protects against lethal endotoxemia (50) thus warranting its consideration as a potential influenza treatment



Ginseng is another herb with potent anti-inflammatory effects. An extract from Korean red ginseng (Panax ginseng, C.A. Meyer) significantly protected mice in experimental sepsis by decreasing TNF, IL-1, IL-6 and IFN-γ production via inhibition of NF-κB activation



Green tea (Camellia sinensis) reduces endotoxin-induced release of HMGB1 and is also proposed to possess the ability to decrease mortality from sepsis if taken regularly (57).


All of this is really interesting, not sure where to get half this stuff but it’s readily available in vitamin stores and alternative medicine shops. Many are antiviral and suppress numerous inflammatory signals while having antioxidant properties that protect our tissues when under stress.


The example given here of an ancient Chinese medicine formula used to treat influenza containing nine (out of 11) herbs with anti-inflammatory properties provides compelling evidence that the way forward for the treatment of influenza in a pandemic should be immunomodulation. The host response is targeted, rather than the virus itself.


She’s using this data to build a targeted approach to helping the body through a severe crisis and build targeted treatments. She found what she was looking for and now wants to use controlled trials to see if it works.

I’ll see if she has any trials rather than a systemic review of prior literature and studies. Systemic reviews are usually pretty stringent but it would be nice to see clinical results.



posted on Jan, 28 2020 @ 05:25 PM
link   
a reply to: TheAMEDDDoc

Thanks for the research.
Herbs are drugs....in fact some of our drugs mimic herbs or are synthesized herbs.

I have take---with doctor approval--red yeast rice with CoQ10 instead of a chemical statin.
Yes, I am very familiar with Valerian Root.
I also know to look up interactions with prescribed drugs before taking a new herb.

 


a reply to: TheAMEDDDoc

This is EXACTLY the kind of thing I was looking for!!!!!!!!!

edit on Tue Jan 28 2020 by DontTreadOnMe because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 28 2020 @ 05:42 PM
link   
a reply to: DontTreadOnMe

Awesome, glad to hear it, just be wary of results. Even if the mice were humanized with human immune cells etc. or even other tissue, they have different metabolic responses. This will impact results in human patients and could possibly impact results such as increasing signaling or not have an impact at all. This will impact dosages too and as always, double check with your primary care person. If they’re good they’ll help you make a joint decision.

I’ll be grabbing a couple of them if it decides to grace the US with its presence.
edit on 28-1-2020 by TheAMEDDDoc because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-1-2020 by TheAMEDDDoc because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 28 2020 @ 06:00 PM
link   
a reply to: TheAMEDDDoc

Don't wait too long....look at the run on the n95 masks.....


ETA
I also know YMMV.
I know people who have had luck with turmeric for inflammation....me....none whatsoever.
I use boswellia for the arthritis in my thumbs....but totally unsure if boswellia is good or bad for a cytokine storm/sepsis....will have to look that up and possibly stop if this thing gets bad here.
edit on Tue Jan 28 2020 by DontTreadOnMe because: (no reason given)



new topics

top topics



 
34
<< 1    3  4  5 >>

log in

join