Coronavirus, Herbs and the Cytokine Storm

a reply to: Lora73

It seems to reduce the impact of th2 responses, useful in cancer. Not sure about viral infection which are dependent on th1 (response that targets infected cells and sends inflammatory signaling), th2 (response that recruits humoral and antibody responses), and th17 (granulocyte and macrophage responses). Something that reduces th17 could be useful.

Your mushroom comment reminds me of an important component. Blocking the cytokine storm should be secondary. Last time I was in this thread I didn’t have an additional year of studying COVID and molecular medicine.

Researching natural supplements that boost type 1 interferon (alpha and beta) could be very useful here and then boosting type 3 interferon (gamma) to help regulate inflammation.

Type 1 interferon allows the cell to protect itself during viral infection. SARS-CoV-2 blocks this very well. It also leads to good cytokine signaling through NFKB (transcription factor for cytokine activation) and ISG (interferon stimulated genes) responses to protect the cell and present viral antigen to activate the immune response. If you can help stimulate this process, then there is no threat of a cytokine storm.

The storm or sepsis results from a delayed interferon response. So natural killer cells and dendritic cells do not realize a viral infection is occurring until viral load is high. NK cells especially help regulate viral infection until the adaptive response like cytotoxic T cells that destroy cells presenting viral antigen can activate. Losing that makes the inflammatory response essentially freak out and go into overdrive. Eventually leading to an exaggerated response and the complications we see during severe infection.

This is one of the reasons healthcare professionals and children don’t get very sick in most cases. Constant exposure to respiratory pathogens upregulates interferon responses and the virus is limited in its options. It also seems to allow them to target antigens presented earlier in infection rather than the spike.

If you delay interferon like this virus does, vaccination or immunity may not matter if the wrong target was selected during the previous exposure. So challenge with a new infection can be dangerous.

a reply to: TheAMEDDDoc

The storm or sepsis results from a delayed interferon response.

Could you break this down better into laymen's terms.

What can we do to help this interferon response?
Keep viral load low, as with nasal rinses or sprays?
Certain supplements, as zinc/quercetin?

a reply to: TheAMEDDDoc

Thank you very much for the detailed answer

a reply to: DontTreadOnMe

Sure I can try. For supplements, angel or Ricky are your go to since they seem to be the subject matter experts with natural supplements.

Viruses aren’t alive and they need to hijack a cell to reproduce. They can’t move and and take over cell processes to replicate genes and generate new virions. To appreciate the scale here, if a virus were a human, just to cross the cell, it would need to walk one mile. So it hijacks proteins and mechanisms to help it through this process, otherwise it can’t reproduce. Cells also don’t always produce genes, precursors, and the proteins required because it is energy intensive and needs to draw from mitochondrial pathways to shift from energy production to metabolite production. The best way to do this is to initiate cell division which the virus attempts to do while preventing the final steps of cell division. The cell has checkpoints and sensors that monitor for these abnormal processes.

The important one here is sensing for abnormal RNA that indicates a viral infection is occurring in the cell. Two major pathways are stimulated by pathogen associated molecular patterns that activate these sensors. These are transcription factors or proteins that bind to DNA and prepare it for transcription to RNA and then protein to initiate signaling pathways. One process to activate inflammatory or cytokine signaling to alert the system outside the cell that viral infection is occurring through NFKB. The other is to interfere with viral protein and gene production in the cell and that is interferon.

Interferon activates interferon stimulated genes that stop all gene and protein production in the cell, or attempt to and then the virus will attempt to circumvent these processes. One important component that activates is these genes also activate pathways that let other cells know that the infected cell is compromised in changing its external structure.

The most important is letting natural killer cells know the cell is compromised. NK cells act early in viral infection and they control viral infection until the T-cell response is activated. Interferon tells the cell to withdraw its survival key via MHC on an external receptor that is presented to NK cells. NK cells perform handshakes with all nucleated cells to ensure they are ok. If the cell fails the handshake, the NK cell will signal the compromised cell to self destruct through an unstoppable apoptosis pathway.

SARS-CoV-2 can block the interferon pathway or it can be delayed if you are obese or have a condition like diabetes. It can also block the cytokine signaling pathway. It’s not unique, all viruses do this, some are better than others. If interferon is delayed, there is no signal to natural killer cells that the cells are compromised. So the virus replicates and grows in number. This also means no antigen presentation by dendritic cells to the adaptive immune cells in lymph nodes. So instead of being slowed down, the virus replicates unimpeded.

Eventually the innate immune response starts a signaling cascade, and so many cells are being infected and destroyed, there is an excess of inflammatory signals. By the time T cells respond, it is too late for the host. Infected tissue is continuously destroyed, without signaling for healing or regulatory factors by T cells, and you have a cytokine storm or unregulated and exaggerated immune response. Similar to a hypersensitivity reaction which leads to shock and then death as circulation is compromised with blood pressure drop.

Children and healthcare providers are constantly exposed. Research shows they have cross reactive T-cells to many targets. That is they react to different viruses because of structural similarity shared across viruses and their proteins. Because of these constant infections, from other viruses like rhinovirus or the cold, or influenza, interferon is already being produced and SARS-CoV-2 cannot take hold in the cells of the host. The NK cells keep it in check or remove the infected cells, then the T cells clean up the rest with other cells like macrophages and dendritic cells that eat and digest the infected material.

Probably also why less developed nations shrug off infection with other factors like prophylactics used, public health monitoring limits, other diseases etc.

So if you can boost interferon or interferon stimulated genes naturally, it could prevent a delayed interferon response which is responsible for most severe cases in vaccinated and unvaccinated. If you look at the immune system, this occurs before adaptive immunity is even stimulated to come to the infected cells, so you have a virus that can escape vaccination or previous infection if it blocks or slows down the interferon pathway. You will only target spike later in infection after virions are being produced no matter where you stand immune wise. The cross reactive T cell responses often target the replication complex of the virus, and these are presented earlier in infection, giving an increased chance for survival and limited spread and severe disease.

Our lifestyles have made our immune systems slow and lazy compared to the rest of the world. It’s why we have autoimmune issues and these more severe cases. The vaccine and these infections exaggerate these epigenetic or environmentally stimulated changes in our genes and people are dying. Maybe there is something to help interferon expression in early infection. Or maybe even as a prophylactic.

a reply to: TheAMEDDDoc

Okay, I finally had the time to slowly try to absorb this.

So, what you are saying about children, healthcare workers and less developed nations could also be the reason the homeless seem to have pretty much gone through covid unscathed?

a reply to: DontTreadOnMe

It would seem to make the most sense, especially with what they are finding out about interferon and progression into COVID instead of a run of the mill respiratory infection. It can also explain reinfection and vaccinated issues. Annoying virus to the developed world. I would be interested to see its impact In Africa in regions with high levels of HIV-1 infection. If that’s even possible but it will be a few years.

Children also have other variables going on with receptor counts and levels of expression. Another interesting analysis would be analyzing this in populations in less developed nations.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: DontTreadOnMe

I have to ask the question, why isn't a healthy diet good enough?

Because most people are clueless when it comes to what constitutes a healthy diet.

Why does our body need "more" of this or that to stave off disease?

Same reason many mammals do...

Mammals capable of producing their own vitamin C for example will manufacture 10-30 times more when they are sick.

When humans get sick, they are capable of taking 10 times more orally that=n t hey otherwise would be able to take without getting a massive case of the runs.

High dose IV vitamin C will kick pretty much any cytokine storm's ass to the curb.

originally posted by: DontTreadOnMe
Anyone familiar with the cytokine storm, the immune system and viruses please add your feedback here.
I know some things we take for illness and viruses can actually make you sicker.
For coronavirus, at lest the bird flu kind is recommended.

They say that the cytokine storm that happens during Covid is the defining difference between life and death. Researchers at the University of Arizona discovered that in Covid patients who died, the cytokine storm was similar to what happens from the venom of rattlesnake.

Two things you probably didn't think you'd hear together: COVID-19 and rattlesnake venom. No, it's not some new miracle cure. A University of Arizona research team is part of a new study looking at the two to hopefully stop future COVID-19 deaths.
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Chilton is part of a study by multiple universities just published in the Journal of Clinical Investigation that found in extremely ill COVID-19 patients, a very similar enzyme that's found in rattlesnake venom was found in these patients, and at astronomical levels that could be causing the death.

"We saw the highest levels of this enzyme we've ever seen in humans and those patients died from the disease," Chilton said. "It's very similar to the rattlesnake and it has many similar properties and much of the biology is the same."

UArizona study found enzyme in COVID deaths similar to rattlesnake venom

So I figured that the best way to prevent a deadly cytokine storm caused by this Covid enzyme, similar to rattlesnake venom, is to use natural herbs that stop the cytokine storm when bitten by a rattlesnake.

There are many herbs RUMOURED to cure rattlesnake bites. But 2 standout to be tested to really cure rattlesnake bite and to act as an anti-venom to the cytokine storm.

Those 2 herbs are SAGE (yes, common sage works) aka. salvia oficinalis and RATTLESNAKE MASTER aka. eryngium yuccifolium.

Eryngium Yuccifolium is a very powerful anti-venom plant used by Native Americans against rattlesnake venom for thousands of years. It has been used by the Cherokee, the Choctaw and the Iroquois. And their tribes survived many rattlesnake bites for thousands of years.

Concentrations of venom and extract vary with the experiment and are shown in the Results section. For assays testing the inhibition of the enzyme activity in venoms, a concentration of enzyme was incubated for 15 min with the inhibitor, then substrate added and the reaction conducted for a sufficient length of time to demonstrate effective enzyme activity in the positive controls, typically 1-2 h.
...
While mechanisms are generally unclear, many low molecular weight nonnitrogenous antivenom compounds in plant extracts may mimic natural inhibitors of the venoms [36], explaining this use [37], while others are nonspecific inhibitors of enzymes, either as direct inhibitors of venom components or maybe anti-inflammatory
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Eryngium genus displays anti-inflammatory [40-49], anti-microbial and anti-oxidant effects [30,50]. Anti-venom protection by Eryngium water extract significantly prolongs survival time of guinea pigs challenged with scorpion (Leiurus quinquestriatus) venom [51-53]. This type extract also inhibited the hemolytic activity of Cerastes cerastes (desert horned viper) highly proteolytic venom [54]. The aqueous root extract of Eryngium creticum reduces the hyperglycemic response caused by Cerastes ceras in rats [55]. Given the variety of activities documented for Eryngium, and that there is a documented effect of the E. creticum plant inhibiting both snake and on scorpion venoms, there seems good support for the Eryngium extracts as an anti-venom treatment, to which this study adds.

The work reported here adds in vitro protease inhibition, a specific mechanism for the actions of the Eryngium extracts, as shown with a panel of North American venomous snakes, most noticeable in the general protease and the collagenase assays and provides a system to further study the inhibitors. The presence of the enzyme inhibition activity in all the plant parts tested and not only the roots, should be of interest to phytochemists.
...
Using a comparison at a dilution of 2 as an example, the statistical groupings by Tukey’s multiple range test (P < 0.05) were: E. yuccifolium leaves/sage were the most potent, E. yuccifolium roots (different from sage but not E. leaves)

An in vitro evaluation of the Native American ethnomedicinal plant Eryngium yuccifolium as a treatment for snakebite envenomation

Being that said that the Covid enzyme causing the cytokine storm is similar to the rattlesnake venom enzyme, both eryngium yuccifolium (rattlesnake master) and salvia oficinalis (sage) would be effective at preventing a Covid cytokine storm.

There is further data to suggest that sage, salvia oficinalis also acts as an anti-viral killing Covid while preventing the cytokine storm.

Researchers in Germany have conducted a study demonstrating the potential antiviral effects of commonly consumed herbal teas on severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) – the pathogen that causes coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19).

The team – from the University of Duisburg-Essen – found that aqueous infusions of sage and perilla elicited potent antiviral activity against the virus in different human cell lines.

Sage and perilla herbal teas could help to prevent or treat COVID-19

I did try sage tea during my Omicron Covid infection and it worked, in fact, it was the only thing that worked. Omicron is designed to replicate fast. The sore aching muscles are caused by the immune system releasing proteins to kill off the Omicron. It was sort of a mini-cytokine storm throughout my body and muscles. Felt more like some sort of chemical fire in my veins at times.

Sage tea did alleviate the muscular cytokine storm from Omicron. So sage works double duty, antiviral killing Covid and anti-enzyme to stop a cytokine storm.

a reply to: DontTreadOnMe

Got a new one I tried. Not exactly for Covid but for neuroregeneration after Covid damage or vaccine damage.

New one I tried was Kudzu. Definitely works for neuroregeneration. BUT it has limited use. Not supposed to use it beyond 4 months, some say 10 weeks. It has natural estrogen in it, so might not work too well for the men.

Anyhow, if you use it too long or in too high of dosage it can cause liver problems.

But it has given great clarity of thought with new neural regeneration for short term use to repair Covid damage of neurons, dendrites, and malfunctioning astrocytes.

a reply to: MapMistress

Interesting, I'll have to look it up.
Thanks for the info.

a reply to: MapMistress

One thing I know about sage is that it can trigger seizures in epileptics.


NOTE TO THREAD
General advice to the thread, if you are taking any prescription drugs or have conditions, don't just take new supplements without doing some research.