Transgender Kids & LBGTQ Parents

a reply to: Gryphon66

Well reality is that people will never be happy, happiness isn’t worth pursuing
What we can hope for is tolerance and acceptance, that on its own is a big ask

Children should be allowed to be confused and at an age when they are reasonably mature, options offered
The rest, anyone’s uses

a reply to: Boadicea

Agreed. Good conclusive scientific research is needed as unbiased as possible by all possible applications of political correctness. I want to make sure you know that I share with you concerns about children and women being mistreated and or endangered in anything related to this process just the same as transfolk.

Hormone blocking therapy has been used for years in other types of treatments most notably breast cancer. It's not a completely untried solution.

Only about 15% of the kids who use the puberty blocking drugs continue to show gender dysphoria within two years of treatment, and the therapy is believed to be fully reversable (with questions remaining about bone density and brain development). (best recollection)

Anyone else notice how many times the metaphor of something being "crammed" or "stuffed down our throats" is used in posts by the "con" side of the discussion?

Why is that? I hesitate to suggest a Freudian interpretation. How is the average person FORCED to believe anything about trans people or gay people or anything else?

Yes, there are some legal protections in place to protect civil rights, but ... I just don't get it.

The RAGE. The VILE namecalling.

SMDH

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Gryphon66

Well reality is that people will never be happy, happiness isn’t worth pursuing
What we can hope for is tolerance and acceptance, that on its own is a big ask

Children should be allowed to be confused and at an age when they are reasonably mature, options offered
The rest, anyone’s uses

Agreed. The puberty blocking treatments seem to minimize negatives either way.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Boadicea

I want to make sure you know that I share with you concerns about children and women being mistreated and or endangered in anything related to this process just the same as transfolk.

Thank you -- I very much appreciate that.

The kids have to be our first and primary concern, with a focus on providing the best care for them. I sure don't envy kids or their parents these days! But close behind are the rights and safety of women and children. Self-ID scares the bejeebers out of me...

a reply to: Gryphon66

Is it? Do you know where I first heard? I heard it from atheists and pro-lifers. "How dare you cram your morality/religion down our throats?!"

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Gryphon66

Is it? Do you know where I first heard? I heard it from atheists and pro-lifers. "How dare you cram your morality/religion down our throats?!"

Not surprising, especially among former Catholics.

a reply to: Gryphon66

LOL ... and opening your post with a pointless ad hom demonstrates that you don't have an argument.

Just pointing out your strategy of acting obtuse and using strawmen to bolster weak arguments in favor of codifying and normalizing insanity.

Children are being "exposed"? Good lord, are you aware that there are literally TEAMS of medical professionals involved in EVERY transition?

Children as young as 7 CANNOT make this decision. So all the adults in the room, regardless of their expertise, seem to be missing the mark on ethics and morality.

Yep, regarding the pronoun "laws" in NYC I'm on the record here as being totally against it. So, nothing "feigned" here on this side of the screen.

I think from your post, you may be obsessing just a tad over the issue of pronoun use. I don't like it either, not because I don't think transfolk have the same rights as I do, but because I'll be damned if I'll let any government tell me how to talk.

Great, glad we agree that compelled speech is wrong.

They're still doing it and demanding more. I will stand firmly against any movement that assumes for itself rights that require me, the unconnected person, to acquiesce to their demands. That's not a rights movement, that's an attempt at policy-by-mob tactics.

Are you sensitive and let what other people call you hurt you? Someone called you a bigot? That's probably unpleasant.

Being called a bigot for refusing to deny reality and acquiescing to the capricious bull# of mentally ill people isn't a matter of sensitivity. It is a matter of being able to participate in a society that makes sense and does not pursue policy that infringes on everyone's rights except that of the demanding individual or groups.

Are you a normal person? I'm sorry, that must be very boring.

What were you saying about ad homs?

Care to pull up the actual facts regarding the court case you're complaining about?

Chemical castration at age 7. HE is a 7 year old boy who CANNOT make this decision on his own. His nutjob mother, who should know better as a pediatrician, is forcing this upon her child.

Draw your line, just don't cross mine or anyone else's and we're all good.

My line is very clearly defined. As is the line of most decent people of moral rectitude.

Your line seems to be a moving line where you will accept all the immorality and abuse that comes with a fake rights movement that has done nothing but allow men to steal the space of and supplants ACTUAL women, abuse children, and make a mockery of what it means to have and exercise rights.

originally posted by: Edumakated
So the other day I picked up a copy of Chicago Parent magazine. The cover features a cute little seven year old girl... although, it is actually a boy. The article is written in the typical vague leftist tone that 7 year old Ella is fighting discrimination, blah, blah, blah. The article states that she knew at 4.5 years old that she was a girl and legally "transitioned" at age 6.

Chicago Parent - What Being Transgender Looks Like

I'm a parent of a 5.5 year old boy. I found this proclamation somewhat shocking. I guess we can argue whether a 4.5 year old really knows if they are a boy or a girl beyond what toys they like to play with but that is probably a thread unto itself.

The one thing I did notice with a lot of these very young transgender kids is that their parents also seem to be LBGTQ. I can't help but wonder if these parents are pushing this life on to these kids. Kind of brainwashing them. In this case, the parent claims to be "non-binary" whatever the F that means. I mean from a pure statistical standpoint, what are the odds that so many transgender kids also seem to have LBGTQ parents?

Even though I am one of the more libertarian / conservative voices on here, I am pretty liberal socially. I really don't care what kind of fetishes and stuff people do in their free time. However, I do think the LBGQ community is losing favor with some supporters with some of this transgender nonsense. Between Drag Queen story time at libraries reading to kids and men in drag beating the brakes off women MMA, at some point we have to say enough is enough.

Just a rant and some random thoughts as I read the magazine...

I am glad parents like yourself are making a point of such topics, thats good to see.

It would seem that anytime there is a young child making such changes to their appearance you will find that its parents are lesbian/gay or any of the other mixes you wish to through in there. With that being said, it is clear that their parents views and behaviour is wearing off on their young and simple psychology shows that we are merely products of our environments. What we observe as a child growing up in this world, absorbing all the information around you if all you have is this confused state that they themselves are going to be confused. Then you get what you pointed out here, a boy at such a young age basically doing as it see's.

No young mind before the age of 16 and above really has any natural interest in its appearance. It is, what it is a child that age does not care how it is perceived and any 'evidence' that someone may say there is to say they do have consciousness of such, well this will yet again be a young child in a confused environment.

Most young adults that suffer mental illness and react in the way of becoming trans are generally from confused states before the fact, then react. Generally younger life something has occurred to make them feel repelled or compelled against their own sex or that of another. Thus they react in this manner.

This is the reason suicide is high in trans because they are not solving their inner demons but literally hiding behind a mask.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Only about 15% of the kids who use the puberty blocking drugs continue to show gender dysphoria within two years of treatment, and the therapy is believed to be fully reversable (with questions remaining about bone density and brain development). (best recollection)

I've tried to stay out of this thread as it is a subject near and dear to my heart and I'm participating in another thread with a similar topic and can only take so much of this but before I head off to bed, I just wanted to talk about this statement because I'm not sure I understand what you're saying? I've otherwise found your posts to be supportive, informative and greatly appreciated and it could be that I'm just exhausted and having trouble comprehending?

Johanna Olson-Kennedy, Director of the transgender youth program out of the Children's Hospital of LA, says it is exceedingly rare for a child that has gone through the evaluation process and often times been under observation for many years to not go on to take cross-sex hormones after being on puberty blockers and that very few discontinue all treatment entirely. Out of 1700 cases, she sites only two or three to her recollection.

When you say only 15% of kids who use the puberty blocking drugs continue to show gender dysphoria within two years of treatment are you referring to "desistance"? If so, I may have some concerns about that. Since these therapies and protocols are the treatment for reducing the distress of gender dysphoria, where my interpretation may be confused is with the other 85%? Has their treatment and transition been successful?

Here's a few links that might add something to provide insight into your 15% number? Yes, the majority of kids cease to feel transgender when they get older but not the 80 to 85% number that is usually thrown around. At any rate, the affirming care model doesn't force anything on kids and leaves the possibility that they might change their mind open.

Mental Health How many transgender kids grow up to stay trans?

The Controversial Research on 'Desistance' in Transgender Youth

Detransiti on, Desistance, and Disinformation: A Guide for Understanding Transgender Children Debates

Sorry for jumping in if I have misread things? I'll do my best to now bow out gracefully and save my input and efforts for another time when my brain might be working better.

Thanks.

a reply to: projectvxn

Your commentary is not proof of fallacious argument on my part. I look forward to you proving your claims about arguments I make specifically and directly. If I'm in the wrong, I think you know or will find, I will admit it.

How many children age 7 have been started on any sort of puberty blocking therapy? Do you know? I don't. I have the feeling that it would be a very small percentage if at all. However, giving a child therapy, counselling, support if they are having questions about the understanding at their level of development "Boys do this, girls do that" does not seem harmful to me.

No issues on non-mandated speech; we agree.

I don't use the word bigot anymore because it has been abused by anyone and everyone. It's passe.

Ad hom? Normal means average, regular, in the middle, nothing anomalous, etc. Being a normal person seems boring to me. Did I discredit you personally because you consider yourself normal? If you feel that way, I apologize - not intended.

The Younger/Georgulas case? The actual jury decision was not to award Mr. Younger full custody of his two kids. Georgulas is his ex-wife. I'm fairly certain there's more at stake there than when to start puberty blockers.

According to reporting from The Texan, Georgulas’ lawyers Jessica Janicek and Laura Hayes said the mother does not plan on giving James hormone blockers at this time. However, “no one has stated that she (Georgulas) would not be open to using them when James begins puberty,” which would be around age 11 and a half for a boy, the report said.

Daily Wire

So, apparently not starting puberty blockers on a 7 year old boy. That makes better sense.

Here's the write-up from the Texan ... and it's a very objective report of the facts.

Here's the article from The Texan

Honestly, it sounds like the two are using the kids in a proxy battle between themselves. That really sucks.

originally posted by: Bhadhidar
The thing I can’t figure out is why “gender identity” is a topic that gets so many people all bent out of shape.

I mean, what possible difference could it make to me if, although you look like an adult male, you truly believe yourself to be an adult female (or vice versa)?

Even if that identity is valid only for today.

Who and how you identify yourself matters not one iota to me, except to the extent that I am made aware of how to address you respectfully.

You express concern that certain parents maybe “brainwashing” their kids to behave in “atypical” ways? That’s been an argument since parents have been having kids!

Surprise, kids grow up and become their own individuals. Some hold to what their parents taught and expected of them, some reject everything their parents held dear and true.

Most “bend and blend” what they were raised with to fit what is most comfortable for their lives as adults.

That’s one of the reasons we don’t still live in caves.


Look, one day we may encounter a sentient extraterrestrial species that, although they look like us (two arms, two legs, a head and a body), have a culture and physiology entirely different from ours.

If we can’t “get over” some of fellow humans being non-cis and or “gender fluid”, how can we ever expect to get along with the “non-humanness” if a truly alien species?

Its all fun and games until some kid is allowed to do something that isn't reversible and they turn 25 realizing they been wrong all a long. I think most here are only saying that kids should not make nonrecoverable decisions and so let them wait until they are an adult to choose their life path.

a reply to: Kalamitous

No problem at all. I was using the 15% from memory as I have read quite a few studies today and my eyes are crossed. Yes, you are absolutely correct about what I was saying which was that in whatever study I saw that figure (unlikely that it was a clinical study with the data analyzed in percentages though, now that you mention it) the claim as I remembered it was that of those kids who are put on the puberty blockers pending a full age-appropriate diagnosis only 15% of them continued with transitional treatment. I'm glad you pointed it out if it's a bad stat.

Thanks for the references, evidence is always welcome in my opinion, I will read and reflect. You're an ATS member, jump in anytime. If you or yours are trans, I'm sorry for some of the unnecessarily harsh things you've read in the thread.

I'll look forward to future convesations.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Most puberty-blocking treatments are considered to be reversable (i.e. you stop blocking hormones and puberty continues).

No one, including the proponents in the thread for trans rights, that I have seen anyway, is encouraging anything like "some kid is allowed to do something that isn't reversible and they turn 25 realizing they been wrong all a long."

These treatments as noted are happening in full light of medical teams and in some cases the court system. There's not some nefarious agenda to sterilize kids as some seem to suggest.

a reply to: Gryphon66

How many children age 7 have been started on any sort of puberty blocking therapy? Do you know? I don't. I have the feeling that it would be a very small percentage if at all.

As I understand this, for gender affirmation purposes, puberty blockers are not started until just before puberty, based on what's called the "Tanner Stages" of physical/sexual development, usually about age 10 to 12 years. So I can't see anyone giving puberty blockers to 7 year olds. At least not for gender affirmation, but possibly precocious puberty. Same drugs, but different protocols.

ETA: Ooops! Sorry. Just saw that you found this information already. Wasn't piling on!

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Gryphon66

How many children age 7 have been started on any sort of puberty blocking therapy? Do you know? I don't. I have the feeling that it would be a very small percentage if at all.

As I understand this, for gender affirmation purposes, puberty blockers are not started until just before puberty, based on what's called the "Tanner Stages" of physical/sexual development, usually about age 10 to 12 years. So I can't see anyone giving puberty blockers to 7 year olds. At least not for gender affirmation, but possibly precocious puberty. Same drugs, but different protocols.

Agreed. That is my understanding as well. The 7-year-old example is intended to evoke an emotional response, and to be fair, a lot of the sites folks are getting their information from here are anti-activist sites so that's not unexpected.

ETA: All good. I appreciate your information!

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Xtrozero

Most puberty-blocking treatments are considered to be reversable (i.e. you stop blocking hormones and puberty continues).

So you are saying a person turns 20 with 10 years of puberty-blocking/hormone treatments and no ill effect? I don't buy it...

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Xtrozero

Most puberty-blocking treatments are considered to be reversable (i.e. you stop blocking hormones and puberty continues).

So you are saying a person turns 20 with 10 years of puberty-blocking/hormone treatments and no ill effect? I don't buy it...

Nope, didn't say that. Puberty blockers would not be administered for that period of time.

a reply to: Raggedyman

those studies I have posted discuss the suicide issue as well , it is a sad fact
despite the best efforts of modern medicine they cant stop them from feeling that way, which is a tragedy you are right!

a reply to: Gryphon66

I do agree with you on this that the forced agenda is a lot of rubbish , its just the media that portray it as such to make people react!