Bernie Sanders: Would he really be that bad.?.?

a reply to: Serdgiam

Thank you for such a thoughtful reply.


Just to clarify I mean we need conservatives and liberals to help balance each other.

When bernie says we need free college maybe a conservative says well we can't afford it without actually hurting future generations but we can do community college and specific programs with job deficits in those industries, maybe so community service back or establishing a civil service program to exchange credits,..I bet andrew and rand paul could work out a better safety in an ideal setting...

I am not a socialist or an ism, ist, or anything else. I think adapting to the moment requires the ability to.....well adapt accordingly. If the philosophy is not working well it's all made up anyway why not try a little change...

Personally I wish a boring centrist not Joe Biden would be in office for the next term just to settle everyone down.

To be honest, Bernie May have taken ownership of the term socialism because that’s the color the media and conservatives paint him, but in all honesty he is not socialist, and neither are his proposals. Here we call anything that benefits the people or that involves govt in markets “socialism”. But socialism as defined by real marxists and actual leftists is primarily worker ownership of the means of production, and explicit democratic participation in govt. if it doesn’t have those two things at a minimum, then it’s not socialism. Everything else is window dressing. As to our two parties meeting in the middle.....that’s a bit of a laugh. Because we don’t have two separate parties. We have two wings of the corporatist war party. Both “sides” line up almost perfectly along supporting illegal wars of aggression and protecting corporate profit. One party is flavored along gay rights or women’s pay, the other along the lines of abortion, and gun ownership, but none of those fringe concerns are allowed to impede profit of their masters, and when it comes to war, subsidies, deregulation, etc they all line up nice for their donors, and give the people no voice at all.

originally posted by: luthier
What has neoconservatism given you?

Lower taxes, the lowest gas prices in the western countries, a military to be proud of... More money in the pocket, little more swagger in the stride, you know?

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: luthier
What has neoconservatism given you?

Lower taxes, the lowest gas prices in the western countries, a military to be proud of... More money in the pocket, little more swagger in the stride, you know?

No I don't. Our debt is outpacing our growth. It always looks great when the loan money is in hand.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: luthier
What has neoconservatism given you?

Lower taxes, the lowest gas prices in the western countries, a military to be proud of... More money in the pocket, little more swagger in the stride, you know?

No I don't. Our debt is outpacing our growth. It always looks great when the loan money is in hand.

We own the global reserve currency and, thanks to the Neocon agenda you're raging on, we're the global superpower. Exactly who is going to call in that debt and why should we worry ourselves enough to even bother answering the phone when they do?

ETA... and spare me the debt vs growth concern horsecrap when the ideology you support would balloon that debt TREMENDOUSLY beyond anything past administrations have even dreamed of. The Green New Deal would be $50-100 Trillion over 10 years, Medicare for all would be in the $30-35 Trillion over 10 years, free college and elimination of existing student debts would rack another $1 trillion in the first year onto the debt, So we've just added $14 Trillion to the debt in year 1 alone just for these 3 socialist programs (assuming linear distribution which isn't accurate... the front end of the 10 years would have a higher cost, but for the sake of simplicity...) United States GDP was $19.4 Trillion last year and the overall federal expenditures were $4.74 trillion... The federal government would literally be spending 96% of the nation's GDP. In 2017 Djibouti had the highest government spending to GDP ratio in the world, at 32%. It is asinine to grouse about "Neocon debt" while supporting the idiot who's policies cost damn near 100% of the countries GDP.

a reply to: Assassin82

I strongly agree with what Bernie said about marijuana legalization and I think he does have some good policies.The thing about Bernie and a lot of other socialists is that they truly do care, in fact I would argue they care so much they let their emotions override logic and fail to see how excessive socialism usually causes more harm than good. I think at the core of it is a refusal to understand fundamental economics, they make up fantasy economics to claim it works and probably even convince themselves of these fantasies. When a government spends huge amounts of money it doesn't have that money has to be taxed or printed, both of which have a damaging economic effect and cause a rise in prices. Several years ago I thought Bernie would have been a great President who would do something real to reduce poverty, but now I understand that the prosperity of a nation is intrinsically linked to productivity and innovation, which are both reduced when everyone gets everything they need with little effort.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

So you don't know we pay interest and its approaching 1/4 of the annual budget.


Or what happens with default? Lol

By the way we don't own the reserve currency. We own the largest reserve currency at 60 percent and falling. The more debt we stack on the less reserve.

originally posted by: conspiracy nut
I think if we met him halfway on some of his more extreme policies he wouldn't be so bad. Left to his own devices he would raise taxes to high heaven and chase away all the rich and corporations and eventually bankrupt this country. His ideas sound great on paper but someone's gotta pay for it and the aforementioned will have none of it.

Exactly you jack around with the corporations and they just raise prices, lower wages and/or run off to tax-friendly countries.

I hate corporations but in a country of 380 million, they are an unfortunately necessary evil. Thing is when you chase off a few it makes the remaining companies even more difficult to negotiate as they too will threaten to leave, and if and when they leave it hurts even more. Seems to me full socialism just locks everybody in a perpetual lower class of living, with much harder chances for advancement. Bernie and the rest can crow about taking from corporations, but the above will happen along with plenty of unforeseen negative consequences. IE this country's psyche can't handle the turmoil it would initially create.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
a reply to: Assassin82

I strongly agree with what Bernie said about marijuana legalization and I think he does have some good policies.The thing about Bernie and a lot of other socialists is that they truly do care, in fact I would argue they care so much they let their emotions override logic and fail to see how excessive socialism usually causes more harm than good. I think at the core of it is a refusal to understand fundamental economics, they make up fantasy economics to claim it works and probably even convince themselves of these fantasies. When a government spends huge amounts of money it doesn't have that money has to be taxed or printed, both of which have a damaging economic effect and cause a rise in prices. Several years ago I thought Bernie would have been a great President who would do something real to reduce poverty, but now I understand that the prosperity of a nation is intrinsically linked to productivity and innovation, which are both reduced when everyone gets everything they need with little effort.

Socialism on the federal level is dangerous if there are not conservatives to control it...we needed it for labor rights and trust busting but at that time we had fiscal conservatives.

Now we don't have those. So socialism is pretty scary.

Socialism provided schools to retrain farmers. The socialists at the time literal socialists created the movement to make grade school and high school.

There is a decent arguement we are faced with a bigger threat than the industrial revolution with tech and some kind of ability to retrain without further burdening those with job losses.

Once semis are auto, retail time etc.those are half the jobs in the us.

a reply to: luthier

So your answer to that is to support the guy who's policies would cost 96% of the country's GDP each year? Stop debt by going deeper into it by magnitudes of increasing in spending? LOL! What are your thoughts on killing people in the name of stopping violence?

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: luthier

So your answer to that is to support the guy who's policies would cost 96% of the country's GDP each year? Stop debt by going deeper into it by magnitudes of increasing in spending? LOL! What are your thoughts on killing people in the name of stopping violence?

Why is that my answer. Pretty obvious on the thread it isn't.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

I bet you believe in Bernie's trade policies. Trump sure does. Even says so.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: burdman30ott6

I bet you believe in Bernie's trade policies. Trump sure does. Even says so.

Yeah, I actually do. It's the rest of his portfolio of ideas that are untenable and suicidal for the nation.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: burdman30ott6

I bet you believe in Bernie's trade policies. Trump sure does. Even says so.

Yeah, I actually do. It's the rest of his portfolio of ideas that are untenable and suicidal for the nation.

So is that one.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

2025 trump economic policy makes the national debt yearly interest payment more than the military budget...


That's ok right?

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: burdman30ott6

2025 trump economic policy makes the national debt yearly interest payment more than the military budget...


That's ok right?

No, that military budget needs boosted to rectify that issue.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

I see so the budget shouldn't be on need but based on the interest payments of debt.


Makes sense for a liberal I guess.

So here's a breakdown of some of the major issues in the U.S. right now:

1. Socioeconomic Status

The rich keep getting richer while the rest of us are getting poorer. It's to the point where it's nearly impossible for middle and lower class to ever have a chance to catch up to the top. Unethical tax breaks, hourly wages, debt-income ratios. My wife and I are responsible people. We don't over-indulge ourselves. Collectively we bring in enough money to comfortably live. Baby Boobmers are leaving the work force as robotics and AI prepare to take over a HUGE amount of our employment needs. The structure of the American workforce is going to be revolutionized soon and the people who need work to pay the bills are going to have a hard time finding employment. The rich will only keep getting richer while the poor only get poorer.

2. Education Reform

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that Americans are, how do I say this, not so smart. Of course we have some brilliant minds but look around and you'll see there are some dumb people. Trade skills are in high demand but most Americans can't do the work at a competent leve. Much of that has to do with our piss poor education system that doesn't allow people to learn from failure, it doesn't teach adversity, and it's covered in red tape and poor leadership. We've got to start preparing our young people for the world better and it starts with education.

3. Jobs

I'm 37. I left the Air Force 2 years ago and completed a degree in Kinesiology & Health this past May I just landed a solid job that can offer a great foundation in my new career. Without the Air Force giving me managerial opportunities, without having an associates degree and a bachelors degree, I don't think I would have found much other than working retail or in the restauraunt industry. How many people don't have any of those things? That's not to say people aren't capable of performing any particular job; but when you combine our poor education system with the automation that's taking over our workforce...basic employment opportunities are eroding. McDonalds is a job meant for high schoolers starting out, not a middle aged lady named Karen with 3 kids and a drug habit. It's a gross generalization, I know...but it's true. Places like fast food and some retail positions are jobs that high school students can perform but people are trying to make a living off of it.

Now, I accept that the job outlook in the U.S. is looking good right now. Trump has thrived in creating jobs. But many of those jobs sit on a crumbling infrastructure. Andrew Yang has mentioned it many times on his platform; automation is coming and it will be here quickly. Big business is all about making money and soon, automation will be more affordable and practical than paying the working man. So we're in a pickle, I think. One where we need the big corporations to create jobs, but many of those big businesses would happily replace us with automation (which is already underway and has been for awhile).

It's said that in the coming years, entrepreneurs, trade workers and the tech industry are the most certain job markets for people to make a living in. Are we as a nation prepared for that? If retail, fast food, transportation and logistics all continue to move towards automation where will those workers go? What education do they have to fall back on? I see this as a major issue that's worth preparing for.

4. College Loans

College loans are a total scam. I know, because while I completed my degree I was offered about $85,000 in both subsidized and unsubsidized loans. All I had to do was complete my FAFSA account and click an "I accept" to get the loans. How many 18 year old kids understand the terms and conditions that go with those loans? How many of them truly know what life after college is going to be like? They don't, for the most part. So they click "I accept", get paid within a couple weeks and don't think twice about till they come out of college with a job that doesn't pay them what they thought they'd get paid after college.

Once the government started offering up subsidized loans, colleges followed suit by raising their tuition costs. They knew it would be easy for kids to get the money needed to pay for school, so they keep raising the tuition costs and the subsidized loans keep coming through. That's when young people get trapped in the never ending death grip that is debt. Now, I am all for personal accountability and if you accept the terms and conditions of a loan you should be obligated to pay that off. But the way they set up student loans is borderline criminal. Colleges are no longer institutions of learning, they're more like institutions of profit generation. Bernie wants to forgive all student loan debt. And he wants to do that pay putting a very small tax on Wall Street. I can't say I have a problem with lowering the cost of education.

I'll leave it there for now as I have other things to tend to this afternoon. Again, all I'm saying is that maybe Bernie isn't as bad as what he's being portrayed to be and I'd like to keep learning more about him. Also, thanks to everyone who's provided quality content to this thread. There's some good discussion going on here. Some posts maybe lack some content...but I enjoy it all.

a reply to: Assassin82

He isn't that bad a senator for vermont or as a person to debate with and make a meaningful discussion.

He would be bad if he continued the authoritarian trends of the last several presidents.

a reply to: Assassin82

First, thanks for your service. Second, I agree with you 100% on college loans. The feds shouldn't subsidize college loans, and they should reinstate the borrowers' ability to discharge the loan in bankruptcy. In turn, lenders would become a lot more discerning in selecting borrowers and colleges would have to reduce tuition rates to attract students who don't qualify for loans and must pay for their classes via summer and part time jobs. Everyone should be able to go to college, but not everyone should have their schooling paid for by society and if the sought degree doesn't generate enough money to pay for the loan, then the student should not get the loan or grant to pay for the degree.