Satan the deceiver or not ..

originally posted by: JimNasium
a reply to: Specimen


Re: "Wasn't both Jesus and Lucifer referred to as "Morning Star"

www.truelife.org...


We SHOULD pay heed as this was written by a guy who makes His living by Preaching.


Worship = War Ship

You didn't read your own link very well, did you?

a reply to: Specimen

I think it depends on what Lucifer we and the texts are trying to depict.

The actual name of Lucifer is only mentioned once in the Bible and Isaiah 14 tells us who he is.

Isaiah 14:12-15

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

originally posted by: Gargoyle91
They say Satan is the great deceiver of mankind and we are taught this by God's followers , What if Satan is actually the good guy and God is the deceiver and has had everyone fooled through out the ages ? I mean realistically we are being threatened to worship and follow God , What kind of supreme being would need to do that ? We hear nothing from Satan's side and he's not threatening us to worship him or else . Why did God not want us to eat from the tree of knowledge but Satan did ?

This has always puzzled me how God earned the faith by saying bad things about Satan and not vice versa .

I'm not religious but I understand something has to make nothing and I will find out what it is someday.

i would say there is a certain manipulative nature to the garden situation. adam and eve were explicitly told never to touch the fruit of knowledge. but "the adversary" was never given any command to leave adam and eve alone. furthermore, the tree was not guarded against trespassers or thieves, the gate was left open for "the adversary" to access their home, and god was mysteriously absent while "the adversary" had a conversation with eve. theoretically god was standing there literally right next to them watching eve being tempted by one of his less savory creations and refusing to intervene on behalf of his naive daughter, even though he knew what would happen if "the adversary" was successful. the big problem here being that god (being omniscient and omnipresent) warned his children with the perfect knowledge that his warning would be undermined by his pet, and the fact that he would be privy to the entire event, and would still proceed to punish them despite being complicit in their betrayal which he previously engineered. i believe the legal term is "entrapment". and the only person with the means, motive, and opportunity is the one guy who literally controls the universe.

a reply to: Specimen

In one bible verse regarding the bronze serpent, it is said that the son of man(Jesus) is to be placed at the same status.

Jesus is only making a comparison here. In the day of Moses, those who looked at the bronze serpent were spared from death. Jesus is only stating that he will be lifted up on a cross to spare people from eternal death.

John 3:14-15

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Specimen

In one bible verse regarding the bronze serpent, it is said that the son of man(Jesus) is to be placed at the same status.

Jesus is only making a comparison here. In the day of Moses, those who looked at the bronze serpent were spared from death. Jesus is only stating that he will be lifted up on a cross to spare people from eternal death.

John 3:14-15

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

all part of the death and rebirth fertility cycle that denotes most traditional sun god religions. jesus is not the first, nor the last. people just say that because religion is an industry and industry only likes competition that makes their product look good.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Now which Sun God was it that died for his followers so that they might have eternal life? Oh, yeah, and not to mention raised from the dead himself to prove that what He said was true?!

a reply to: Deetermined


What do You mean? Does it not mention both?


*** Don't get Me wrong, I'm not trying to get the last word, see My religion™ doesn't REQUIRE Me to defend it, nor is there written rules, so whatever do You mean? See, once it was determined to be from a Chris†ian™ religion™ site, the 'energies' that buzz around Me, made that site kinda funky, something about a "Certificate".. These "energies" are usually unseen unless it is something real HEAVY and if that is the case then they appear as balls of lights, Orbs, or "Demons" per Your religion™...

So what do You mean? and "Yes" You 'win'...


But just to make sure We are on the same page... I will have to run down and get a copy from a room that rents by the hour and get a copy left by TheGideons™ .. We are typing about the King James Version 3rd re-write; 4th re-vision?

Do You know if it was translated from Aramaic?

a reply to: Deetermined

Yes but it depicting Babylon and it king who will not receive a proper burial and is held in disgust by Hebrews. Also if I'm not mistaken his father the one who destroyed the first temple of Solomon.

It not making any supernatural claims or actually offer any further insight as to why the last king of Babylon has any significance to Venus or the title of the morning star. Although Babylon might of been the closest thing to a super power back then, where it was so high up on the ladder, there was no where else to go but down.

Maybe ambition?

originally posted by: Gargoyle91
They say Satan is the great deceiver of mankind and we are taught this by God's followers , What if Satan is actually the good guy and God is the deceiver and has had everyone fooled through out the ages ?

What if you are destined for great things to come, for example, you are to rule over all living things as the image of God? Why would Satan not trying to deceive you?

originally posted by: RobFox
I mean realistically we are being threatened to worship and follow God , What kind of supreme being would need to do that ?

What kind of parents would allow their children to harm each other, like Cain did to Abel? God being strict to the Israelites, but because Israelite being the firstborn are set to be the example for others. Threaten is a harsh interpretation for scold. But then again it was meant for the Israelites. Worship can has different meanings. If you meant worships through weird rituals or sacrifices, then you have been misled. God does not need those kind of worship. But you are required to pray to God, so that you are not completely alone and loss. It's relationship between son and father.

originally posted by: RobFox
We hear nothing from Satan's side and he's not threatening us to worship him or else.

O really? Perhaps you should tour some of satanic cults?

originally posted by: RobFox
Why did God not want us to eat from the tree of knowledge but Satan did ?

Because we are not ready. Just look at our life here on earth. How many would take responsibility for bad things like cancer? We blame God for almost everything regardless of causes. There is no point of knowing good and evil, if we can't understand our own responsibility and action as cause and effect to everything that has happen in our life.

originally posted by: RobFox
This has always puzzled me how God earned the faith by saying bad things about Satan and not vice versa .

Everything good comes from God.

Jesus said, "Forgive them for they do not know what they are doing"

Most of us do not know what we are doing. That is why we hurt other people. Including our next generation...by committing adultery and passing bad infected genes. And the next generation will blame God for this.

a reply to: EasternShadow

You typed "But you are required to pray to God, so that you are not completely alone and loss..."

May I ask what You meant by this?



* Not germane to the topic but off topic query:What do You think of when I type "transdimensional beings" And like the above, please treat as if rhetorical in nature and no answer is needed, if'n this throws You off Your game.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
i would say there is a certain manipulative nature to the garden situation. adam and eve were explicitly told never to touch the fruit of knowledge. but "the adversary" was never given any command to leave adam and eve alone. furthermore, the tree was not guarded against trespassers or thieves, the gate was left open for "the adversary" to access their home, and god was mysteriously absent while "the adversary" had a conversation with eve. theoretically god was standing there literally right next to them watching eve being tempted by one of his less savory creations and refusing to intervene on behalf of his naive daughter, even though he knew what would happen if "the adversary" was successful. the big problem here being that god (being omniscient and omnipresent) warned his children with the perfect knowledge that his warning would be undermined by his pet, and the fact that he would be privy to the entire event, and would still proceed to punish them despite being complicit in their betrayal which he previously engineered. i believe the legal term is "entrapment". and the only person with the means, motive, and opportunity is the one guy who literally controls the universe.

Very good observation.

It was His plan.

Why would He created Earth in the first place?

Adam must prove himself to be capable "image of God" before he can rule over heaven.

To make story short, God accepted Serpent's challenge. Either Adam goes down to Hell with Satan, or become the ruler over heaven.

It was a deal and a plan.

But I believe God never leaves Adam on himself. If you read the gospel of Adam and Eve in details, God continue to communicate with Adam. He taught and comfort Adam a lot of time. He even told Adam, he had to do so, otherwise, the world we know today will not exist. Maybe this planet will run by ape ancestors instead of modern human. Lol.

originally posted by: JimNasium
a reply to: EasternShadow

You typed "But you are required to pray to God, so that you are not completely alone and loss..."

May I ask what You meant by this?

Life isn't always been kind to us, even if you have everything your heart desire.

Life isn't kind for Trump, most definitely. Lol.

What I'm trying to say is, God is always be with you.

If you are in dire situation, maybe it helps to know, that you are not alone. Just talk to God in earnest and you will find comfort. Your father will always welcome you no matter what. If you just allow yourself...

You may not see him, but you will know His presence.

Ask and you will be answered.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Beta trans snowflakes hate their fathers and the tough love that got us this far. Nothing new. Didnt play sports as a kid, huh?

My manly OT God can kick your idle pussy NT gods ass over and over and never tire.

originally posted by: Prene
Beta trans snowflakes hate their fathers and the tough love that got us this far. Nothing new. Didnt play sports as a kid, huh?

Baseball and football. How about you? Was it field hockey?

a reply to: Deetermined

I don't need God or Satan to know good from evil.

I don't need an old book or anyone else to tell me how to have morals and be a decent human being.

The grey area only comes from having to chose a side of two possible sky fairies whose business is of no interest to me.

Just leave me alone to live a peaceful and good eternal existence doing my own thing and maybe chilling with other eternal mortals of a similar mind and I'll be fine thanks.

Honestly so many damn gods and such throughout history. I'm not interested in any.
If such beings exist I'd detest any that forced me to chose them for any reason.

As I've said elsewhere on this site. A life time of humans expecting me to worship them, do as they say and live as they want, to exist only to appease them has been bad enough. I don't want an eternity of that with a being with a god complex. Who would want that?

Yeah I reject black and whites.
Until a God appears and in the flesh to my face tells me different maybe. But yeah, not holding my breathe for that.

originally posted by: Gargoyle91
We hear nothing from Satan's side ...

Funny, and here I was getting the impression Satan's side was so nicely articulated by the OP and the scene in the 2nd post. As it has been for centuries, the same arguments and slander of God as a tyrant or dictator keeping something important from his subjects, as expressed by Satan himself to Eve as recorded in Genesis.

We hear nothing from Satan's side? I hear hardly anything else coming from the mainstream media, hollywood blockbusters, popular indoctrinating cartoons like South Park and Family Dad and the world or society in general. And it's not like it's the first time your line of argumentation shows up on ATS either.

Eccl. 1:9

What has been is what will be,

And what has been done will be done again;

There is nothing new under the sun.

Nothing new to see here either.

originally posted by: AtomicKangaroo
a reply to: Deetermined

I don't need God or Satan to know good from evil.

I don't need an old book or anyone else to tell me how to have morals and be a decent human being.

The grey area only comes from having to chose a side of two possible sky fairies whose business is of no interest to me.

Just leave me alone to live a peaceful and good eternal existence doing my own thing and maybe chilling with other eternal mortals of a similar mind and I'll be fine thanks.
...

The Danger of Becoming Self-Centered

Humans are by nature interested in themselves. When personal desires and interests become paramount in life, however, trouble results. What does it mean to be self-centered, and why is it unwise to become so? This term means being “concerned solely with one’s own desires, needs, or interests.” Does that not accurately describe many people today? Significantly, the Bible foretells that “in the last days” of Satan’s wicked system, “men will be lovers of themselves,” or will become self-centered.​—2 Timothy 3:1, 2.

Christians appreciate the wisdom of observing the Bible command to take an interest in others, loving them as one loves oneself. (Luke 10:27; Philippians 2:4) ...

A self-centered attitude can lead to one’s being self-righteous [judging oneself by one’s own standards], which, in turn, can cause a person to become narrow-minded, presumptuous. The Bible aptly says: “You are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are, if you judge; for in the thing in which you judge another, you condemn yourself, inasmuch as you that judge practice the same things.” (Romans 2:1; 14:4, 10)

I changed the order of some sentences. The bolded part between brackets is from another article about self-righteousness. It relates primarily to the first 2 sentences I quoted from you.

a reply to: whereislogic

Self Centered? lol. Yeah that might apply to peoples God's and Demons.
I care about others as much as, if not more than, myself.

Don't try to counter what I am saying by trying to assess and label me without knowing me just to make things fit your own world view.
Same with context and highlighting specific things in a nice cherry picking fashion instead of just addressing the actual points being made.
It's just an attempt to twist my words and change their context.

Doing such just makes it clear why you know all about self-centeredness and think it applies to everyone else as well.
It might be how you are as a human. It might be how other people are as humans.
But it is as far from a truth as it could be when it comes to me. I am an exception. Not the rule.

And it just seems to be a lazy way of avoiding having to properly address my point of view.
(always does when I see people try that tactic.)

But yes this is the trouble I have with communicating with people online every day.
People think that because most humans fall under certain typical....or should I say certain human stereotypes, not all of us do.

Gotta love you humans. Someone says the sky is blue and you can guarantee someone will always come along and claim that I said the grass is purple.
Especially when they cannot counter why the sky is not blue but they want to.

Nice try though, but keep on trying. You might get it right eventually. But I doubt you will.

Hmmm, maybe I should just start posting video responses to everyone.
People seem to understand # better, hear what you're actually saying, when they can hear the words and see the expression of the speaker I find.

Well in most cases, there's always the few that will always have difficulty with humaning. Usually because they will always want the world to adhere to how they want it regardless of reality.
They will never want anything other than an echo chamber.

a reply to: Gargoyle91

Questions like that are the reason why we need to walk in the shoes of him who is in hell. Then you'll believe in God!

Don't play around with the ideas. Cleverness is not yours to command.

originally posted by: AtomicKangaroo
I've had this discussion many times with Christians with never a satisfying answer given.

I ask them to show where Satan/Lucifer or whatever in the Bible is doing evils to mankind.
They can't.

Nearly everything bad that happens to people in the bible via supernatural means is the work of God.
Old and New Testaments.

God says love and worship me or else. Even Post-Jesus. Give yourself to me 100% based on nothing but faith or go to hell for at least between now and the end of days (yeah Hell aint eternal apprently.)
But of course you must just love and worship him unconditionally, not out of fear or anything.

Kind of hard to not be fearful of an omnipotent being who has complete control over your eternal soul, especially when you look at his past and future track records.

He's kicked his kids out of home and taken their immortality for making a mistake.
He's nuked cities. Turned wives to pillars of salt for simply 'looking back'.
He's made people suffer horribly and killed simply to win a bet with the devil. Like Marty McFly responding to being called a chicken.
Ordered people to kill their kids to show their loyalty only to say "haha psyche, you don't gotta kill them now I know you would."
He's killed billions with a flood.
and much more.

And before you say "oh but Jesus changed all that. God's on his meds now."
Look at Revelations and the 'End Times' and what God's plan for us into the future is. (Especially if you're not one of his 'chosen people')
Beasts, plagues, famines, war, zombie armies and more with the eventual literal glassing of the planet and all that remains on it.
Memory wipes for all on death, and while everyone get's immortality, those of us who are not his 'chosen' will be stuck living essentially as we are now, but forever. Always outside his city looking in. No matter how good we were, no matter how faithful.
In the end everything kind of counters we have free will when this egotistical, needy, attention seeking super deity controls everything we do. Pulls our strings right to the end.

It's all there in his own words.

But what about the devil? Well we only have one side of that story. God's side.
There's no book dedicated to Lucifers testimony to how things went down.
Whenever he shows up in the bible he is always offering mankind things. No strings attached. Or he offers up an exchange. Hey worship me, get a free country.
He's okay with humans having # that useless to life and survival like TV's, Computer and shows like Jersey Shore.
Under God all our tech and other materialistic things will be gone. Heck God doesn't even like a joke and you can only dance and sing if it's dedicated to him.

I don't see Lucifer doing anything terrible to people until Revelations. But then again those terrible things seem to be part of God's ultimate plan. That same God who supposedly see all, knows all and created everything.
If he created everything, then who really is it unleashing swarms of locust with faces like people and tails like a scorpion to torture us?
Who is it turning rivers to blood and drying up oceans in the future?

Who's plan is it to ultimately kill us all, destroy the Earth and build everything a new including us with our personalities stripped out to be mindless worshipping sheep?
God or Lucifers?

Look at 'visions' of God on his throne. Heaven is a toy box under his seat where we await in standby mode. And everyone else present and witnessed is doing nothing but bowing, praising and worshipping God.
They have no other life than that.

Unconditional love? bwahahahaha.
I love my children unconditionally. For better or worse I love them and always will with no expectations of them.

God's unconditional love is based on you loving him unconditionally, otherwise GTFO.
His love is full of conditions. First and foremost you must dedicate your entire life to the worship and loving of him.
It's anything but unconditional.

And I could go on.
I've read old and new testaments, and a few spin off books and honestly God always comes off in them as being the biggest, most selfish, douchebag in the universe.

In comparison Lucifer honestly comes off as the lesser of the 2 evils.
(and despite seeing all and knowing how # would go down with Lucy. He still made that guy.)

But of course he's infallible, he cannot make mistakes. It's always everybody elses fault.

Honestly if the Christian afterlife is real, or if any major religions belief is the right one, I just want to be able to use my freewill and tell them all to piss off and let me live my after life my own way. (preferably with my mind intact.)

Spent an entire life having people trying to tell me how to live everyday of it and to worship them.
I don't need an eternity of that # to boot.
That would be the real hell for me.

Well worth quoting to put it out there over and over again until someone comes up with a logical, satisfactory answer for why the "good" god responsible for the above is supposedly not a royally evil asshole. And how the devil who doesn't even HAVE a narcissistic book fawning over him, could possibly be worse than a cosmic parent god who murders & abuses the living s# out of his cosmic kids from creation to death, for eons.

The cookie cutter excuses are absolutely pathetic. Worthy gods don't do this s# to their cherished. YOU aren't cherished by the prick you follow, how can people not see this much? He's spent thousands of years making it very apparent in your own book. You're just cheap toys for an omnipotent asshole to wreck.