UK woman dies after being exposed to nerve agent novichok

originally posted by: ArMaP

originally posted by: CJCrawley
Agents sponsored by the Russian govt poisoned the Skripals with nerve agent, chucked the empty but contaminated canister carelessly into a skip in Amesbury before legging it, two unfortunates from a homeless hostel found it while dumpster diving and get unintentionally poisoned.

Don't they collect the garbage in the UK?
The Skripal's poisoning happened 118 days before this case.

They would, but like a murderer disposes of the gun in a river, wouldn't an assassin using a nerve agent dispose of the container in a place they felt it might never be found? ... except by the scavenging junkies it turns out.

a reply to: andy06shake

I know British paramedics are to start carrying an antidote to deadly nerve gas.

Probably Atropine or the like, but i don't think the emergency services, that attended the first incident would have come prepared immediately.

Another one is pralidoxime chloride (2-PAM Cl), which loosely binds up the acetylcholine preventing the nerve agent
from attacking it

Atropine is the primary which is mixed with 2-PAM

originally posted by: ketsuko
They would, but like a murderer disposes of the gun in a river, wouldn't an assassin using a nerve agent dispose of the container in a place they felt it might never be found? ... except by the scavenging junkies it turns out.

I wouldn't do it, unless I wanted it to be found. There are better ways of disposing of things when we don't want them to be found, like a river, as you said.

a reply to: ArMaP

That's the point, they didn't care that we knew it was novichok, they didn't care who was exposed as long as the target was killed and they didn't care how it was disposed of. There has never been any hint of them trying to cover their tracks. Russia can sit back and say "we didn't do it, prove it" and unless we can prove they actually did it there can be no official repercussions, whilst at the same time sending a message to everyone saying "don't screw with Russia, we will attack you anywhere and at anytime".

If they just wanted the original target killed they could have chosen thousands of innocuous and untraceable methods, the fact is they used a chemical weapon that is unique to Russia. The guy probably used it, chucked it in a bin and walked on...there's nothing suspicious about using a bin.

Cheers
Robbie

a reply to: stratsys-sws


Apparently Charlie Rowley is now conscious so hopefully the source of the contamination will be found shortly. The park is still closed off here in Salisbury. It's baking hot and has been for weeks so spare a thought for the poor guys in full Hazmat gear.

I don't think it would have been chucked into a bin as these are emptied regularly. Maybe a skip?

A river runs through Salisbury - two I think - so maybe it was chucked into a river and washed up in the Park where they found it? I suppose it would have been sealed in some way as otherwise all the fish would be dead, which they are not.

Still, we should find out now soon.

originally posted by: stratsys-sws
If they just wanted the original target killed they could have chosen thousands of innocuous and untraceable methods, the fact is they used a chemical weapon that is unique to Russia.

It's not, one of the guys that invented it said any country can make it.

The guy probably used it, chucked it in a bin and walked on...there's nothing suspicious about using a bin.

And it took 4 months to be found?
That's what makes me think that the "chucked it in a bin" idea doesn't explain the events.

a reply to: firerescue

Cheers for the info firerescue.

Hopefully, the Man that has awoken makes a full recovery and/or can shed some light as to what actually transpired.

a reply to: oldcarpy

Yeah hopefully we'll find out more now. I agree, a skip could make sense, or even the staging point that the two operatives used before they delivered the agent to the Skripals, perhaps in an unoccupied industrial unit, house or similar place that could be frequented by smack heads!

I honestly doubt they would bother going to a river to chuck the vial/ampule in, they'd just bin after they decanted it to the delivery mechanism, clearly they weren't worried about other people being exposed. Also, the river Avon flows south away from Amesbury towards Salisbury...which wouldn't make sense.

Cheers
Robbie

originally posted by: stratsys-sws
Yeah hopefully we'll find out more now. I agree, a skip could make sense, or even the staging point that the two operatives used before they delivered the agent to the Skripals, perhaps in an unoccupied industrial unit, house or similar place that could be frequented by smack heads!

Two operatives?

originally posted by: ArMaP

It's not, one of the guys that invented it said any country can make it.

Do you mean Vladimir Uglev? Uglev has said that the technology and know-how to produce a novichok class agent could be manufactured by many, not any country. Also, people keep saying Novichok like there's only one Novichok compound, there's not there are many. This particular agent has been identified as A-234, and probably modified to make it more viscous so that it can stick to a door handle, that's not something a country without a significant chemical weapons program and knowledge can do! I'm all for a conspiracy theory but seriously, a russian spy, a russian developed chemical weapon that as yet is not known to have been produced anywhere else, signals intelligence about russian operations over here, Alexander Litvinenko...the list goes on..come on.

That's what makes me think that the "chucked it in a bin" idea doesn't explain the events.

Bottle bins, recycling bins, recycled clothing bins, skips, commercial waste, all sorts of bins are not emptied regularly.

Cheers
Robbie

a reply to: ArMaP

The signals intelligence relating to the original attack quoted successful egress of two people following delivery of the package.

a reply to: stratsys-sws

I parked near lizzy gardens the day before they revealed this couple had fallen victim to this particularly nasty nerve agent and I can’t remember seeing any skips

The media has also not mentioned a skip being taken away, Council regularly empty bins so it is highly doubtful this object could have sat around so long in a bin

It is a mystery, good to hear Charlie (fitting name for his drug usage) is coming through and hopefully we can now narrow down where this contaminated object was and finally clean this horrific mess up

a reply to: Whereismypassword

Hi, with all due respect I don't particularly notice skips myself and unless I was thinking 'ooo i must look out for skips' I probably wouldn't remember seeing one either.

Also, Queen Elizabeth gardens has not been identified as where they fell ill. It was simply one of the many places they visited that day and there was a search there. They also visited John Baker House, which is 1/2 a mile from the Zizzi restaurant the Shripals ate in on the day they fell ill.

So far everything that has been taken away has not turned up the source of the poisoning, of course there have not been any reports of skips being taken away, that's because even if it was in a skip, or still is, it has clearly not been found. Your assumption that all bins...including recycling facilities are emptied that regularly is wrong I'm afraid.

Think about the process the killers went through - Open container of one of the most deadly toxins known to man, handle open container whilst delivering the contents to the target, change out of potentially contaminated clothes, bag them along with container and throw it in a bin, skip, dump or clothes bank.

Cheers
Robbie

a reply to: stratsys-sws

P.S. I'm not saying it has to be in a skip or bin or whatever, i'm just saying that the container was likely dumped very shortly after it's use...along with their clothes.

Cheers
Robbie

a reply to: stratsys-sws

Duplicate

a reply to: stratsys-sws

Well if any container that held Novichok was papped in a skip or bin, then perpetrator or enemy spy does not know their tradecraft as they should.

As i don't imagine enemy Spys or assassins would leave any evidence around, certainly not within walking distance of the intended target, that's if they are proficient at what they do.

originally posted by: stratsys-sws
Bottle bins, recycling bins, recycled clothing bins, skips, commercial waste, all sorts of bins are not emptied regularly.

Where I live (in Portugal) they are emptied weekly. 4 months is a long time.

a reply to: ArMaP

Don't hold me to it but i think our bins are indeed emptied once a week here in the UK.

Green ones anyway, Brown fortnightly, can't remember as to the frequency of the others being emptied.

a reply to: stratsys-sws

Thanks.

a reply to: andy06shake

Well they clearly did leave evidence lying around within walking distance, one person is dead and another in hospital because of it. I don't know your credentials so I'll assume you have some knowledge on the matter rather than just trying to appear to be knowledgeable by using words like 'tradecraft' and suggesting you are more practised in assassination than the people that actually did this.

In the litvinenko poisioning Andrey Lugovoy left a trail of radioactive Polonium through half of London, there was so much evidence that we even know who the assassin is and demanded his extradition, which Moscow has denied! That's my point, they actually want to leave a trail that points to Russia but cannot be absolutely proven, it sends a message - screw with us and we'll come for you wherever you are, with impunity.

Cheers
Robbie