The 7 very reasonable laws the Hebrew God requests of the gentiles..

hmmm...didnt Titus Flavius start this whole thing?

a reply to: JoshuaCox

It is a hotly debated topic amongst Christian scholars..with countless people falling on both sides..

You're full of it. There is no debate among Christians whether actions on behalf of the faithful and capable are required. That has always been a basic tenet of the Christian faith. You're just trying to bash Christians.

Of course faith matter. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that works by those incapable are required. In fact, in almost every instance of the mention of this concept, it is empty platitudes and broken promises that are being referred to. You know, lack of action. Something that IS required of Christians.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

You're wrong again.
A little believing in Jesus gets you spewed out his mouth. Dude read the bloody Bible.
Lukewarm Christians are scorned.

Isn't it one of the historically prime debates within the Christian faith? Faith or works? It's not like we are going to are going to make a final decision here. Some say faith and others say works. That's Christianity and each side says the other is wrong. Simple

originally posted by: projectvxn

There are MANY references to actions in place of words and intentions. Many.

Actions don't get you there.

Actions are "evidence" that you are chosen. But, is not "sufficient".

Here are the words of Jesus himself on the matter:

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? -- KJV, Matthew 7:22

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. -- KJV, Matthew 7:23

So, by from Jesus' own mouth we are told many will be doing great "works" and believing that this will get them in the door, but when they arrive at the gate, Jesus will deny them.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

It is a hotly debated topic amongst Christian scholars.

No, it isn’t.

It’s hotly denied by Christians who understand Jesus’ message, and encouraged by the pseudo-christians who would rather listen to the False prophet Paul, than the actual figurehead of the religion.

Any true Christian worth their salt knows full well that Paul was just a plant.


And it’s a very effective propaganda strategy because now you, when confronted with Christ’s words, try to refer to Paul as some sort of authority above Christ.

Get real, man.

a reply to: AMPTAH

What precedes that:

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

There is a lot more than just belief required to enter the kingdom of heaven.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

And all the Gentiles at the time were pagans/polytheists, multiple gods, with colourful ocitures and gold adorned monuments, and what of the Semitic tribes? Kind of Xenophobic in that sense, I'd say other things.

Need I really touch it with a hundred foot pole?

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
Isn't it one of the historically prime debates within the Christian faith? Faith or works?

There is no debate.

Nobody is "saved" by their own works.

You get saved, then you do works that are evidence that you are saved.

By their actions they are known, but the actions is not what makes a person a Christian.

It's only "evidence" that suggests that they are.

That is why the warning says..sheep and wolves walk together..

The wolves do outwardly exactly as the sheep are seen to do, mimicing and immitating..

but in secret they are contrary..

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. -- KJV, Matthew 7:15

Anyone can "say" they have faith, and can even do "acts" in public to reinforce that by suggestion.

So, obviously, saying you have faith, and doing good works in public, aren't going to get your foot in the gate.

Lukewarm Christians are scorned.
Unless they vote the same ticket as hot Christians and then, well, maybe they are good for something anyway.

a reply to: AMPTAH

What is being said here is that all Christians need to do is give faith lipservice and viola! You're in!

Not how it works.

Is this really a faith vs works debate?

Do you people not know faith without works is dead?

And beer... that helps too

a reply to: AMPTAH
No debate? Then what have I been running into from Christians all these years. Some like you say one thing, and others, like you, say another and both offer biblical references to back their claims. I am not here to debate the rightness or wrongness of either.

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: JoshuaCox

It is a hotly debated topic amongst Christian scholars..with countless people falling on both sides..

You're full of it. There is no debate among Christians whether actions on behalf of the faithful and capable are required. That has always been a basic tenet of the Christian faith. You're just trying to bash Christians.

Of course faith matter. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that works by those incapable are required. In fact, in almost every instance of the mention of this concept, it is empty platitudes and broken promises that are being referred to. You know, lack of action. Something that IS required of Christians.

Google Christianity faith vs works..

There are pages saying exactly that..


www.str.org...

On top of that both Christian sides consider faith the primary factor..

a reply to: projectvxn

You can mean your repentance and still have been a monster previously...


In jail they do not turn away those who have done something that crosses a line.

If a child molestater goes to YOUR preacher and asks to accept jesus.. YOUR pastor will baptize him.. (that isn’t saying the pastor would let him out of jail or cover up for him. Just that on a religious level. The cho mo would still be accepted.. )

Why???

Because works don’t matter, faith does...

a reply to: JoshuaCox

And yet restitution is such a central part of Christian jurisprudence.

But let's ignore that.

Sure. The pedo goes to heaven because he really, really means it.

a reply to: projectvxn

well remember the thief on the cross. his only work was having faith in jesus. faith can be a work in itself. all men fall short of heaven unless they believe in jesus AND TRY daily to be as jesus like as possible. trying to do as we should ISa work of faith.

a reply to: yuppa

I find it amusing how many people in the "faith alone" crowd use the thief on the cross as evidence that faith is all one needs...

We know absolutely nothing of this man... but we do know that people were executed for silly things in that time, or even things they didn't do...

perhaps one may consider the fact that this man asked Jesus personally to remember him...

No one else gets that opportunity

a reply to: JoshuaCox

The Jewish religion has a far easier path for gentiles.

well, guessing you are talking about something like this??

According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come.

www.jewfaq.org...

slightly different from your list, but close enough?
maybe God's expectations of mankind changed as mankind grew and advanced? I mean, how many three year olds do you know of that have a set time they need to be home every night compared to how many teenagers have them???

and, I have to ask, if all that survived the flood was noah and his family, along with maybe a few servants and such, where was the need to establish courts of justice at that time? I mean it kind of stands to reason, that Noah was the head of the household, his word would be final???
also, no individual really has much say as to weather the courts in the lands they occupy is just or not, and there have been many times through history where those courts just weren't that just at all... so, I guess in those cases, every person in the nation was lost because their Godly anointed king was an unjust idiot?

when sarah and abraham entered into egypt, abraham was afraid the the Pharaoh would notice how pretty sarah was and want him for himself. so he told sarah to tell him that she was his sister, so he wouldn't be killed. and sarah being the good obedient wife that she was expected to be, did as she was told....
which either led to sarah lying about her relationship with abraham....yes, in this case that half truth was a lie, or almost led to her committing adultery. and I could list many more biblical stories where people were kind of put in such positions, where they would be damned if they did, damned if they didn't...
I find myself wondering why this is so, and, the only answer I can come up with that makes any sense whatsoever is that Man has been speaking for God for most of our known history and if there ever was an easy path to God, it's been corrupted beyond repair. so in comes the Christian Jesus, who says hey, it's okay, there will be sin, it's impossible to avoid at this point, just do your best and ask for forgiveness...

Which religion says, "Don't kill people for their land or regime change." I know that can't be either Christianity or Judism.