The 7 very reasonable laws the Hebrew God requests of the gentiles..

a reply to: whereislogic

Wow, almost a human conversation, no religious text or JW.org music
Might want to elaborate, just saying

Didn't Stalin control the church?

Might want to look into something else other than what JW.org teaches you, maybe what the bible teaches eh?
Of course, you are not allowed...

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: whereislogic
...maybe what the bible teaches eh?

Like Matthew 12:33-37?

33 “Either you make the tree fine and its fruit fine or make the tree rotten and its fruit rotten, for by its fruit the tree is known. 34 Offspring of vipers, how can you speak good things when you are wicked? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good man out of his good treasure sends out good things, whereas the wicked man out of his wicked treasure sends out wicked things. 36 I tell you that men will render an account on Judgment Day for every unprofitable saying that they speak; 37 for by your words you will be declared righteous, and by your words you will be condemned.”

1 Timothy 6:1b, 3-5:

...so that the name of God and the teaching may never be spoken of injuriously.
...
3 If any man teaches another doctrine and does not agree with the wholesome* [Or “healthful; beneficial.”] instruction, which is from our Lord Jesus Christ, nor with the teaching that is in harmony with godly devotion, 4 he is puffed up with pride and does not understand anything. He is obsessed* [Or “has an unhealthy fascination.”] with arguments and debates about words. These things give rise to envy, strife, slander,* [Or “abusive speeches.”] wicked suspicions, 5 constant disputes about minor matters by men who are corrupted in mind and deprived of the truth, thinking that godly devotion is a means of gain.

Advocating teachings that are not in line with those of Jesus Christ produces envy. The first concern of the person teaching them is, not the glory of God, but the promotion of his own doctrine. The resulting envy may find expression in efforts to misrepresent and malign true Christians, undermining their labors and wholesome influence. (1Ti 6:3, 4) The apostle Paul had to contend with persons who were wrongly motivated, preaching Christ out of envy. Their intent was to discredit Paul’s reputation and apostolic authority, of which they were envious. They tried to discourage and dishearten the imprisoned apostle. At his expense, they sought to build themselves up in order to further their selfish aims.—Php 1:15-17.

Envy: Insight, Volume 1

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: whereislogic
...maybe what the bible teaches eh?
Of course, you are not allowed...

Ridicule: Insight, Volume 2

The act of belittling or exposing to contempt, derision, or mockery. There are a number of Hebrew and Greek words that express varying degrees of ridicule, the choice of word depending on circumstances. We therefore read in the Bible of persons that mock, deride, sneer, scoff, jeer, laugh at, or make fun of others.

Ridiculers are, in general, detestable to others. (Pr 24:9) If such do not accept reproof, they will experience disaster. (Pr 1:22-27) ... Ridiculers often refuse to listen to rebuke (Pr 13:1) and do not love those reproving them. (Pr 9:7, 8; 15:12) Nevertheless, they should be disciplined for the benefit of others. (Pr 9:12; 19:25, 29; 21:11)
...
Ridicule Against God’s Servants. Unjustified ridicule of every sort is suffered by faithful servants of Jehovah. Job was falsely accused of deriding others (Job 11:3), whereas, in reality, he was the one derided, mocked, and made a laughingstock for his course of integrity. (Job 12:4; 17:2; 21:3)
...
As God’s Servant and Prophet, Jesus Christ was sneered at, laughed at, made fun of, treated insolently, even spit upon, during his ministry on earth. (Mr 5:40; Lu 16:14; 18:32) The Jewish priests and rulers were especially hateful in their derision. (Mt 27:41; Mr 15:29-31; Lu 23:11, 35)
...
The disciples of Jesus Christ were likewise mocked by the uninformed and by unbelievers. (Ac 2:13; 17:32)
...
Enduring ridicule with the proper viewpoint. Jesus Christ knew all along that he would face ridicule and that it would culminate in his being put to death. But he recognized that the reproaches were actually against Jehovah, whom he represented, and this was all the more painful to him, for he ‘always did the things pleasing to his Father’ (Joh 8:29), and he was more concerned with the sanctification of his Father’s name than with anything else. (Mt 6:9) Accordingly, “when he was being reviled, he did not go reviling in return. When he was suffering, he did not go threatening, but kept on committing himself to the one who judges righteously.” The apostle Peter expresses this point when writing to Christians, particularly to slaves, exhorting them not to let such treatment incite them to retaliate; for Christ is their example, “a model,” Peter says, “for [them] to follow his steps closely.”—1Pe 2:18-23; Ro 12:17-21.

At one point in his career, Jeremiah the prophet of God said, “I became an object of laughter all day long; everyone is holding me in derision.” Momentarily he weakened and considered stopping his prophetic work because of the unceasing reproach and jeering. But he recognized that it was “for the word of Jehovah” that the derision came, and God’s word in his heart proved to be like a burning fire that he could not endure to hold in. ...—Jer 20:7-11.

Psalm 1

1 Happy is the man who does not walk according to the advice of the wicked

And does not stand on the path of sinners

And does not sit in the seat of scoffers.

2 But his delight is in the law of Jehovah,

And he reads His law in an undertone* day and night. [*: Or “he meditates on His law.”]

3 He will be like a tree planted by streams of water,

A tree that produces fruit in its season,

The foliage of which does not wither.

And everything he does will succeed.

4 The wicked are not like that;

They are like the chaff that the wind blows away.

5 That is why the wicked will not remain standing in the judgment;

Nor will sinners remain standing in the assembly of the righteous.

6 For Jehovah is aware of the way of the righteous,

But the way of the wicked will perish.

I don't think I'm the one who won't allow bible teachings to reach their hearts and minds and nobody can stop me anyway from paying attention to them (as in not 'allowing' it to happen).

1 Peter 3:15

15 But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Lol..

Well EVERY OTHER monsterous leader in history was religious...


So 3 atheist ones, and I would be suprised if they were all actually atheists and not religious in a secular society.. and 200,000 monsterous religious leaders lol..

Because totally secular states are a kinda new thing..


Christians killing Jews, native Americans, Protestants, Muslims, pagans, native Americans, Africans.....

Depending on how much the population mattered over prehistory..


Christians are hands down responsible for the most deaths the last 2,000 years..

And it isn’t even close..

a reply to: whereislogic


The Bible That is spurned by the religion that spawned it and Jews and a lot of actual historians think is a fraud perpetrated by Paul???? THAT PRESENTLY HAS A FEW THOUSAND DIFFERENT VERSIONS??


That Bible.. or the real one that hasn’t changed in AT LEAST 2000 years???

a reply to: JoshuaCox

So, .....let me get this straight ....Reading the Noah story itself, there is no allusion to these 7 laws at all. Genesis 9 literally says:

1. Have babies, and for that to happen it is only natural to have sex. There is nothing in there about adultery or sexual immorality.
2. Allowance to eat meat, yet not with the symbol of the animals life force .i.e. blood.
3. It does not say: murder, but not KILL humans as the blood of a human will be required to be paid by the one having ended that life.

In return God promises: that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of a flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth

This covenant does not only applies to mankind, but to every living creature that is with you, the birds, the domestic animals, and every animal of the earth with you ... I leave it to you to consider which animals that applies to.

The attribution of being all knowing, foresight, you have to really wonder where the destruction of mankind by fire comes from. Was what is called Lord God being deviously misleading here? Again for the second time? And a third time is in the works (Gen 11). It says more about the minds that thought this one up, the authoritarian legalistic religious devotees who want to superimpose their views on mankind, of whatever stripe they are, replacing the spirit with the literal.

These are not laws .... this is basically a description of what people do by nature. And for that there will be a rainbow. Also a naturally occurring phenomenon. Meaning effectively that "God" was simply imposing himself here. God rather is a burden to mankind than a positive ally.

a reply to: whereislogic

So then why does every preacher/priest on the planet tell their flock otherwise?!?!

Why is no one ever turned away??


By what you are saying all the rapists , mass murderers should be turned away.. right???

What is the use of allowing someone who god has already rejected, to join the church???

In reality there is a very easy answer, all money is green.. lol

But dogma wise, what is the justification for that???

It’s a hard argument to make that the Christian god wouldn’t except repentance from monsters when EVERY church on the planet says and dies otherwise..

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: AMPTAH
No debate? Then what have I been running into from Christians all these years. Some like you say one thing, and others, like you, say another and both offer biblical references to back their claims. I am not here to debate the rightness or wrongness of either.

This happens because of certain ambiguities of language. When speaking, the listener can often interpret what is said differently from the intention. So, what you hear people arguing about, is really the language.

I state the issue very clearly, because I understand what confuses people.

You just need to understand, in what order does a person's transformation occur.

1) you get chosen and selected by God, and are thus saved
2) then you have faith, because by God's grace you see and understand
3) then you do good works because you are saved and comprehend why those good works are necessary

So, you have all three things (saved, faith, good works)

A Christian has all three.

But the Christian is neither "saved" by "faith" nor by "good works."

Think about it. Why on earth would you have "faith" if you have no evidence there's even a God?

That kind of "faith" requires some major "internal transformation" within you.

There's nothing you can do to initiate that internal transformation, it comes from God himself.

As it declares in Jeremiah 31:33-34...God is the one that initiates that internal change.

So, the only one whose "works matter" is that of God.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Raggedyman

Lol..

Well EVERY OTHER monsterous leader in history was religious...


So 3 atheist ones, and I would be suprised if they were all actually atheists and not religious in a secular society.. and 200,000 monsterous religious leaders lol..

Because totally secular states are a kinda new thing..


Christians killing Jews, native Americans, Protestants, Muslims, pagans, native Americans, Africans.....

Depending on how much the population mattered over prehistory..


Christians are hands down responsible for the most deaths the last 2,000 years..

And it isn’t even close..

You might want to check those figures Joshua Cox, instead of running your assuming mouth off
Cos you have just put your big foot in your big mouth with that absurd statement

Atheism is no friend of people and never has been, humanity is reduced to animals.

a reply to: AMPTAH

How very Calvanistic of you Amp
Both Molinar and Arminian had a different argument based on scripture
Quoting one verse as the whole bible, not exactly correct

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: yuppa

I find it amusing how many people in the "faith alone" crowd use the thief on the cross as evidence that faith is all one needs...

We know absolutely nothing of this man... but we do know that people were executed for silly things in that time, or even things they didn't do...

perhaps one may consider the fact that this man asked Jesus personally to remember him...

No one else gets that opportunity

You missed th epart where i said HAVING FAITH is a ACTION/WORK i see. And also this Thief ASKED/the action of QUestioning to get a answer. Which took WORK to do. his mouth moved and he spoke correct?

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: AMPTAH

How very Calvanistic of you Amp
Both Molinar and Arminian had a different argument based on scripture
Quoting one verse as the whole bible, not exactly correct

I think what a lot of people miss is that mankind has "two seasons."

The bible refers to laws and rules for men in these two seasons, in different places.

So, at times, things may seem contradictory.

In the first season, man is created with the "missing stone" in his DNA, let's say.

Because he doesn't have this "internal part", he needs to be given "verbal instructions" on how to behave and conduct himself.

He doesn't automatically know right from wrong, so God gives man the "Ten Commandments", and a bunch of other lesser "rules" to follow.

Man is a sinner, and part of his activity during this "first season" is to recognize his sins, acknowledge them, and atone for those sins.

But, God promises a future time would come when that "missing stone" would be "restored", and man would then have an "internal guide" that leads him on the right path. That's where Jeremiah 31:33-34 comes in.

So, in the "second season" of mankind, men have "changed", they are different from the men that walked in the "first season". This is the reason Jesus came, to mark the beginning of that change, to switch from "season one" to "season two".

Season two men don't have to get instruction on right and wrong, because they have it internally already. They don't need to "atone for sins" because they are "saved" already, and forgiven, and the "sins are washed away."

Now the transformation from "season one" to "season two" is not instantaneous.

There's a period of overlap, where they are some men walking the earth in the "old temple" and others walking the earth in the "new temple".

This means, that some people will still be under the rules of the old testament, while others have switched over to the new testament. The total time for all to switch over is 3000 years from the birth of Christ.

But whatever state a man is in, at the moment, it is God whose "works" determine the man's fate.

The man may be doing evil works, and still God can "forgive", "wipe away all his sins", and save the man.

It's God's will.

Although God gives many rules, he doesn't judge by the works, he judges by what is in the "heart" at the time of doing those works.

I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. -- KJV, Jeremiah 17:10

So, what God cares most about is your "motivation."

A man may be doing "good deeds" to be seen by men, and get the praise of other men, just to gain a position from which he may secretly do evil. Men can't see into the heart of other men, so all men can do is judge by "appearances."

But, God doesn't judge by "appearances". He can see inside the man, so that's what he uses to judge.

Now, some people think, that if a man is struggling and doing good works, then God will "choose" him to be "saved."

And that "may" be the case.

But, we don't know that, for sure. Because we don't know what was in the "heart" of the man when he was doing those good works. And God tells us that he "searches the heart" to make his own judgement, as we have just seen.

So, it's not by works that a man is saved.

a reply to: AMPTAH

What you call a season is called in the bible a covenant
Your stone is the Holy Spirit

God offers His son Jesus as the method of grace, some will choose Jesus and some will refuse the relationship.
God neither forces or pre chooses people into a relationship or condemns others from a relationship
God allows us a free will to choose Him or deny Him

This overlap you talk of, where do you get that from, never seen it in the bible.
Or are you saying the Old covenant still exists for those outside of Christ and that is what humanity will be judged by
Christians don't suffer the old covenant because we have the new one in Jesus

Why not speak plainly

a reply to: Raggedyman

You have to include a counterpoint if you are trying to make one...


I also forgot to mention all the Nordic states that are PRESENTLY ranked as the best places to live on earth.. basically the entire EU is atheist..

Assuming Stalin, pol pot, and Mao did murder people for their religious beliefs. The only differ between them and every other religious genocide is that they didn’t discriminate amongst the religions..

Because literally almost every era in Christian and Muslim history is dominated by the mass murder of those not considered Christian/Muslim enough for them..

Hell Christians murdered and repressed the Jews from like 100ad up until WW2...

What are you disputing????

That the vast majority of historical leaders were religious???

That the collective body count of those people is greater than the collective body count of 3 dictators in the modern era???




I would like to tack on the fact that all the Nordic countries are “atheist states” and they are the best places to live on the planet by a lot of variables.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Christianity specifically says your works (actions don’t matter) it is only your faith that counts..

If what you say is true then tell me why there is a judgment for every soul that dies? Does not every person die once and then judgment of the deeds of the person who has died?

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: AMPTAH

This overlap you talk of, where do you get that from, never seen it in the bible.

Or are you saying the Old covenant still exists for those outside of Christ and that is what humanity will be judged by
Christians don't suffer the old covenant because we have the new one in Jesus

Why not speak plainly

It's right there in the bible. When Jesus came part of his message was that this "transformation" isn't instantaneous,
it will take some time..

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: -- KJV, Matthew 28:19

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. -- KJV, Matthew 24:14

We have to "wait" until the gospel is "preached in all the world"...so 2000 years have passed so far, with all this "preaching".

Meanwhile, that "missing stone", which you identify as the "Holy Spirit" is gathering more and more men under it's wing.

The Old Covenant still exists for those Jews that have not yet been "transformed".

They still can't "hear" the message of Jesus.

One day in the future, they too will understand the words of the scriptures, in the same way that the Christians do.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Why is everything else in the OT stated directly and unambiguously, but to find a jesus prophecy you have to pull partial verses from multiple different places???


Isn’t that the kinda thing god would have to tell people directly, since it goes against EVERYTHING ELSE???

a reply to: Seede

What happens to a great person who doesn’t believe??

Goes to hell right??

What happens to a monster who honestly repents and is supremely faithful??

Heaven righ??

That equals faith>works.

a reply to: JoshuaCox
Has the Bible Been Changed or Tampered With?

No. A comparison of ancient manuscripts shows that the Bible is basically unchanged despite millenniums of recopying on perishable materials.

Does this mean that mistakes in copying were never made?

Thousands of ancient Bible manuscripts have been found. Some of these contain a number of differences, indicating that mistakes were made in copying. Most of these differences are minor and do not change the meaning of the text. However, a few significant differences have been discovered, some of which appear to be deliberate attempts made long ago to alter the Bible’s message. Consider two examples:

1. At 1 John 5:7, some older Bible translations contain the following words: “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” However, reliable manuscripts confirm that these words were not in the original text. They were added later. * Thus, reliable modern Bible translations have excluded them. *: These words are not found in the Codex Sinaiticus, the Codex Alexandrinus, the Vatican Manuscript 1209, the original Latin Vulgate, the Philoxenian-Harclean Syriac Version, or the Syriac Pe#ta.

2. God’s personal name appears thousands of times in ancient manuscripts of the Bible. Yet, numerous Bible translations have replaced it with titles such as “Lord” or “God.”

How can we be sure that there are not many more errors waiting to be found?

At this point, so many manuscripts have been discovered that it is easier than ever before to detect errors. * [For example, over 5,000 Greek manuscripts of the so-called New Testament, or Christian Greek Scriptures, have been discovered.] What has a comparison of these documents revealed regarding the accuracy of the Bible today?

- Commenting on the text of the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly called the “Old Testament”), scholar William H. Green stated: “It may be safely said that no other work of antiquity has been so accurately transmitted.”

- Regarding the Christian Greek Scriptures, or “New Testament,” Bible scholar F. F. Bruce wrote: “The evidence for our New Testament writings is ever so much greater than the evidence for many writings of classical authors, the authenticity of which no one dreams of questioning.”

- Sir Frederic Kenyon, a noted authority on Bible manuscripts, stated that one “can take the whole Bible in his hand and say without fear or hesitation that he holds in it the true Word of God, handed down without essential loss from generation to generation throughout the centuries.”

What additional reasons are there for confidence that the Bible has been transmitted with accuracy?

...

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Raggedyman

Why is everything else in the OT stated directly and unambiguously, but to find a jesus prophecy you have to pull partial verses from multiple different places???

Everything in the OT is not stated directly and unambiguously. It says that right there in the OT...

I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old: -- KJV, Psalms 78:2

To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings. -- KJV, Proverbs 1:6

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. -- KJV, Daniel 12:4

The OT contains many "dark sayings", "obscure verses", and "sealed texts".

Even things that seem plain an simple have "secondary meanings" that are more obscure.

The Rabbis used gematria, temura, and notarikon to interpret many seemingly simple verses in alternate ways.

So, the whole book, OT and NT is filled with "riddles."

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: whereislogic

So then why does every preacher/priest on the planet tell their flock otherwise?!?!

Why is no one ever turned away??


By what you are saying all the rapists , mass murderers should be turned away.. right???

What is the use of allowing someone who god has already rejected, to join the church???

In reality there is a very easy answer, all money is green.. lol

But dogma wise, what is the justification for that???

It’s a hard argument to make that the Christian god wouldn’t except repentance from monsters when EVERY church on the planet says and dies otherwise..

I take it this was a reply to someone else cause I couldn't really follow it (how it applies to my comment). Anyway...

1 Cor.6:9-11

9 Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled.* [Or “deceived.”] Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality,* [Or “men who have sex with men.” Lit., “men who lie with men.”] 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers,* [Or “the verbally abusive.”] and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean; you have been sanctified; you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.

People can change.



Is the Kingdom of God in Your Heart?

The Bible’s answer

No, God’s Kingdom is not merely a condition in the hearts of Christians. * The Bible identifies its true location by calling it “the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 4:17, King James Version) Consider how the Bible shows it to be a real government that is ruling from heaven. *: Many Christian denominations teach that the Kingdom of God is within a person, or in someone’s heart. For example, in the United States, the Southern Baptist Convention declared that the Kingdom of God is in part “the reign of God in the heart and life of the individual.” Similarly, in his book Jesus of Nazareth, Pope Benedict XVI stated that “the Kingdom of God comes by way of a listening heart.”
...
The Bible does not teach that the Kingdom of heaven is in your heart in the sense that it rules through a person’s heart. However, it does show that the “word of the Kingdom” or the “good news of the Kingdom” can and should affect our hearts.—Matthew 13:19; 24:14.

What does “the kingdom of God is within you” mean?
...