The 7 very reasonable laws the Hebrew God requests of the gentiles..

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Yes they are, most of Western Society is the best place to live, I wonder why
Because they are founded on Christian principles, go figure that one out curly

a reply to: JoshuaCox

I Don't think it is hidden, don't have to pull anything apart
That maybe just you

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Yes they are, most of Western Society is the best place to live, I wonder why
Because they are founded on Christian principles, go figure that one out curly

I don't think any Saudi Prince wants the live in the West.

Also, China has made great strides, and now has an advanced economy, lots of first rate cities, with all the best amenities.

Best place to live depends on who you are, not where you are on this Earth.

originally posted by: AMPTAH

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Yes they are, most of Western Society is the best place to live, I wonder why
Because they are founded on Christian principles, go figure that one out curly

I don't think any Saudi Prince wants the live in the West.

Also, China has made great strides, and now has an advanced economy, lots of first rate cities, with all the best amenities.

Best place to live depends on who you are, not where you are on this Earth.

Yes havnt things changed in the last few decades

a reply to: Raggedyman

Except they threw aside those principles before becoming the best place o earth..

Also Rome lasted for 1200 years as a pagan state and less than a century as a Christian State.

Again also.. Christian society adopted the cultures and practices of the Greeks and Romans.. aka pagan countries..

The only thing the wide spread application of Christianity bought was a decline in scientific progress...

Everything else predated christianity by centuries..

a reply to: AMPTAH

I think they take life span, pay rates, average wealth, unemployment, crime and healthcare availablity to decide it.


They are the most inclusive, the most socialist and still dominate every variable.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

"Brought about a decline in science", that's possibly the most stupid comment I have ever read

Just not worth my effort Josh

a reply to: Raggedyman

Umm.. except for it is the truth..

When Christianity “conquered “ Rome. It was a massive empire of aqueducts and everything the world had to offer at their beck and call..


ONE century of Christianity and it all falls apart.. it took another return to a secular society to spark the renaissance and then the industry age..

There was almost no societal wide progress while the church ran society..

a reply to: JoshuaCox

When did Christianity conquer Rome, that's silly
You are a historical black hole, where do you get this stuff from, your imagination


Never mind the Bizantyne empire you ...

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Hi JoshuaCox. Comparing the Noahide laws with belief in Jesus Christ is a bit like apples and oranges.

Cultivating the faith used to have a personal relationship with Christ can be challenging at times. Everyone's belief is tried, belief in the Christ resurrection can be hard to wrestle with, for those considering the message behind scriptures.

Contrary to death bed confessions, I feel the faith a true believer has lies in the hope of a more personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Through the forgiveness of sins, a chance to feel whole once more, renewed. It usually takes time for those seeds to grow.

Express route, or end of the line time to go through the motions would appear too little to late. Idk.

I think one of the strengths of the Christian faiths is in the transforming power of the Holy Spirit in the faithful. A strong relationship there can change ones perspective radically.( Like walking around on another planet) Physical death not required, lol.


Edit: Looking over this, what I'm trying to express is that faith is about heart. The laws are more to do with conduct...

a reply to: Raggedyman

"Atheism is no friend of people and never has been, humanity is reduced to animals."

And theism has been? That considering, theism has been the leading cause of death .... not to mention that a call to theism has only exacerbated the killing. Very Noahide, no?

But allow me to pose you these questions, as apparently you seem to be a believer in a Theos:

- Do you believe in Quetzalcoatl?
- Do you believe in Wotan?
- Do you believe in Amun Ra?
- Do you believe in Ahura Mazda?
- Do you believe in Marduk?
- Do you believe in the God of heaven?
- Do you believe in the Great Spirit in the sky?
- Do you believe in God?

When you consider all the attributes ascribed to these ...eh...constructs ... you will find they have much in common. Read again the book of Daniel. Considering chapter 4, it is not written by Daniel himself but it contains a story that Nebuchadnezzar wrote. Was he a believer in the God of Daniel, or was he a believer in Marduk. What are the attributes of Marduk which are equal to those Daniel ascribes to his God?

When we now tie this in with atheism (note the minisculas) those who do not believe in those notions are now all of a sudden considered people who adhere to something that is considered anti human? Or as you wrote it: no friend of humanity? And you write of Joshua he is posing something with a big foot in his mouth? Qui mal y pense, monsieur. Shall we now reject broad sweeping statements?

There is blood on the hands of men of almost all stripe. There is an individual choice for all of us, whether we ascribe to believing in a personal God or not, whether it is of the color of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or whatever, the choice is: what will you do in any given situation that call upon your values?

The Noahide "laws" are nothing more than descriptions of that which naturally people of all stripe will flock to. Not the word naturally.-

Then the next step: what produces suffering? I am not talking about pain, but suffering. Is it not exactly what St Paul once wrote: those who are in the spirit will not fulfill fleshly desires? (paraphrase). So basically, even the NT does recognize the true source of suffering: desires. Where do these come from? From the physical presence. As in other traditions the idea is that all suffering is caused by the mind. Or in a more psychological sense: the ego.

Is it not interesting to note that religion generally does not produce spirituality but only a system in which the way has been degraded to a goal? once you are able to see behind that piece of wool pulled over your eyes, you will find that spiritualists, as atheists in the narrow sense, espouse an idea that has been there all along but hidden, obscured, skewed and mistranslated.

a reply to: AMPTAH

I appreciate that you have taken the time to help me understand here Amptah .
But first, the confusion over language. Certainly there is miss-understanding between those who say banana and those who say baanaanaa but that pales to the confusion within the Christian teachings themselves. To many of us who have studied it that is.

1) you get chosen and selected by God, and are thus saved

So here, your notion is that God chooses who is saved and who is not. Is this belief here that only some are chosen and hence only some are saved? That there is no onus, no hope for the others whom He doesn't choose? Is God that particular, or that random that this is how he chooses? Are there prerequisites that one who ''want's'' to be chosen must fulfill? I could ask more question on that side of the question but as there are other sides to that question I will move on.
OR is it that God chooses EVERYBODY and only some know it or only some have the awareness that they have been ''chosen''and move on to number 2

2) then you have faith, because by God's grace you see and understand
Even here I have heard and recognize two possibilities on the nature of Christian faith. Some say it is what we have to offer, faith in God and that is our responsibility, that it is faith that moves us forward to the actions of number 3. Others say that this faith comes from God Himself, that God places this faith in us to have in him. Do you see the conundrum here? Just where does this faith come from. Do we have to come up with it or does God just place it in us. And if He just places it in us, then why oh why does He not place it in all of us. If this is the case then maybe He doesn't because of this possibility of this Arbitrariness of God as suggested in number 1

3) then you do good works because you are saved and comprehend why those good works are necessary

From reading other of your posts here I understand that it is not what any of us do or say or think but rather the only point to be made is that God does it all. That the rest of us need do nothing but go about our mindless way until God decides to ''choose'' who to take to heaven and who will not. Again simple. He will or He won't. So why bother to concern ourselves with it at all.
By this notion, it seems that everything is on track and exactly how God wants it to be. He looks down, spins his wheel of fortune and chooses. And on what criteria we do not know, other than his own whims. I call that capricious, and I for one have no call to follow a capricious god.

So basically I"m going this life either chosen or not and noting I can do can change that. That is if what you say above and in other posts in this thread is true.

But you see I do not believe what you are saying. If I did, I would not even engage with you in this meaningless exchange because there is no possibility of it effecting any outcome at all. It would not help me nor would it help you. All it might do under the scheme you laid out above is to demonstrate to God that you know you need to act in such a manner as evidence to God that you are still holding onto the faith that he gave you because He decided to save you, and not me.

Wot about the spiders I swallow when I am asleep?

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: AMPTAH

So here, your notion is that God chooses who is saved and who is not. Is this belief here that only some are chosen and hence only some are saved?

Yes, Some are saved and some are damned.

However, all are saved and none are damned.

To explain this, let's consider a recent example.

We are told Hitler put 6,000,000 Jews in concentration camps and executed them, mostly in gas chambers.

But, millions of Jews "escaped" this fate, and now occupy the New Israel.

So, then the obvious question on everybody's mind is "How could God allow this?"

These are his chosen people. How come God didn't "protect" his chosen people from this disastrous fate?

The Jews in Israel today are "happy" to have "escaped" the terrible fate of the Holocaust.

They think those Jews that Hitler sent to concentration camps were "damned", while the escapees were "saved".

But, the Bible tells us that when a person dies, his spirit returns to the God that gave it.

So, in fact, those 6,000,000 Jews were taken up to Heaven to be with God, while the "escapees" were left behind.

So, from the point of view of the Jews that now sit with God, they were "saved", and those left back on earth were "damned".

So, you see?

It's always true that "some are saved and some are damned", while at the same time "all are saved, and none are damned."

That's the mystery of God.

a reply to: dffrntkndfnml

I am comparing what Jews claimed gentiles need to do to go to “heaven”. With what Christians claim gentiles need to do..

How is that not applicable?


Also that is exactly what I’m saying..

In Judaism appearently there are sins that mean you cannot go to heaven and only doing good works can earn a gentile admittance..

In Christianity your works are at best secondary and faith is king.

Something that means childmolesors go to Christian heaven if they honestly repent and accept jesus..

In Judaism they do not.

a reply to: dffrntkndfnml

Also you do realize “the transforming power of faith” is not a “Christian only thing..”

Muslims have it..

Buddhists have it...

And I’m willing to bet so has every other religion in history..

Just like yoga , having a child or the right spouse can be a transformative experience..

I doubt seriously anyone could point to one tangible difference between Christianity and the other religions..

a reply to: Raggedyman

You have to name how I’m wrong...


You just claiming I’m wrong with zero evidence or without what you believe to be the truth.

That is the equivalent of “nah uh” and walking away like you “nailed it” lol..

I don’t even know what I am supposed to be rebutting..

I guess you didn’t catch on the the quotation marks as a signal that I didn’t mean actually conquered it, like invading christians conquered Rome with military might..



Rome lasted for 1200 years as a pagan empire, then the western half fell like 110 years later.. which included Rome itself..

And now that I think about it, the goths were Arian Christians too if I remember correctly..

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Eh, thanks for the reply. The Noahide law and even the Ten Commandments seem to be dealing with a code of conduct, it or more with the mind, imo. Faith deals more with the heart and intent in my perspective.

I have my doubts about criminals finding absolution in Christ, last minute. Who knows the hearts of men?

In my bias, I feel Christianity requires practicing deep commitment heart, mind, and soul to grow spiritually. I don't feel following commandments mechanically is the same.

Sincere faith is usually rewarded, in the various belief systems. Living in the West, must often the spiritual types I come across are from the Abrahamic faiths.

Sometimes I run across individuals, and when asked how they're doing they say "It's another day in paradise." In my youth used to think they were humoring me, now not so much.

For me, I think the message if the Good News provides hope of realizing the Kingdom of Heaven has come. Something we can start finding right now.A living God, that's here for us.

Most Good Muslims I've had the pleasure of knowing gave me the impression they were looking forward to future, as reward for the now. Buddhists I haven't been around as much, though the ones I've come across appear to have a very long term view of their spiritual aspirations.

The difference for me is that most of those I've known who show a more impressive degree of self realization have a more Christian mindset (Sihks, too). Could just be a numbers game, though I think there is more to it, especially the esoteric side of the New Testament. Jesus Christ is very much alive, compared to the influence of gods in other pantheons...

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: AMPTAH

2) then you have faith, ...
Even here I have heard and recognize two possibilities on the nature of Christian faith.

Since the type of faith that the bible speaks about is so often conflated with blind faith by those who profess to be Christians as well as others such as atheists, jews, muslims, those who choose to remain or claim to be agnostic or ignorant about the subject of God's existence, etc.; perhaps you should have another look at what the bible says about it and how it defines "faith" (discussed shortly after 6:14):

I particularly like the poem after 26:30 but the correct understanding of the point in that poem might be lost on someone who hasn't looked into some of the introductory examples of evidence and the phrase "doesn't come up with the same conclusion" mentioned before the poem (also what's mentioned from 8:21 - 9:47, 11:42 - 12:38 and 24:11 - 26:30 at least).
These videos may also help with appreciating the finer points of that poem and the preceding points and commentary in those timeframes I gave:

Molecular Machinery of Life

A correct understanding how the bible uses the word "faith" (a synonym for which is "belief") and what type of faith it encourages may prove to be useful if one wants to have any in-depth discussion about the phrase in the OP:

“you just have to believe in jesus..”

a reply to: Yvhmer

Believe in them or not, what does it matter to me.
Many gods were worshiped and are still, non in my mind compare to what Christ, as recorded by so many, many who went to their graves, Christ accomplished.

Funny you list so many gods, does that mean more, like humanity has a desire for God?

Christianity teaches no laws outside of love, a love that is completed in the believer through the Holy Spirit that becomes Indwelling, no system, no laws needed, just the relationship with the Holy Spirit within.
That's true christianity

Suffering, accept it, it will end in Gods time for the believer, that is what the bible teaches

The wool, it's what you have over your eyes