WH clarified Statue of Liberty Poem - Not actually part of American Values

originally posted by: Christosterone
Prior to the late 1920s America had a "skim the cream" policy as it's immigration ethos...

Actually, we didn't. The Scots, for example, were poor tenant farmers thrown off farms to make room for sheep. Irish came here (again, poor and illiterate) because of the potato famine and the fact that it was convenient for the government to ship the riff-raff off to America. The Irish, Rom, and other ethnicities here were rarely the "cream" except in the earliest years when they were attempting to escape religious persecution.

I'm into genealogy, and all you have to do is go back a few generations to find these folks coming to America. My great-grandfather was one of those Scots pushed off his farmland - although he immigrated, he never signed a loyalty oath to the US and never was naturalized. He was basically an illegal immigrant.

a reply to: SaturnFX

Hard to say that immigrants wanting to install sharia law and all that other malarky that will create subjegation and less liberty is in line with what the poem says.

and that would be the point where you would provide examples, but you cant because its not happening.

back on topic as this guy's reply shows, the exaggerated fear levels and just plain xenophobia from some has destroyed the meaning.
'all white people allowed except jews and muslims, ok we're allowing jews in today begrudgingly.'

Was this now holy script installed at a time when America was great? I love to see everyone wanting to MAGA like it was back then, but alas its not in the Constitution, or the Bill of Rights, or anything other than a book of poems and on a tablet on a statue that is actually on a island off the main coast of America.

Unskilled labor is exactly what we dont need at this point.

a reply to: Byrd

There are movies about this...
Far and Away (1992)
Gangs of New York (2002)
You don't even need to open a history text book to see the # we put prior immigration waves through. The anti-immigrant rhetoric of today doesn't fool me even slightly. It is all repackaged rhetoric that has been deployed against all the previous immigrant waves our country has seen.

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: Wayfarer
Just afterwards Steven and Jim have a back and forth on the English speaking requirement for the new immigration policy Trump's put forth, with Jim obviously referencing the lack of 'English Speaking' or a list of countries that are acceptable.

What say you ATS, is the poem indicative of American values or as Steven Miller suggest an afterthought added later and not indicative of American values?

I would suggest the poem references people who simply aren't a fit for their culture to come to this land and we will make our own culture.
The biggest issue is that the problemed areas aren't coming to the US in order to adopt a US culture, but instead wanting to install their homeland culture here..and often this is counter to our culture
This bit right here:

“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free

Hard to say that immigrants wanting to install sharia law and all that other malarky that will create subjegation and less liberty is in line with what the poem says.

And yes, the poem fits the values of the US perfectly. Miller is a fool, but he could simply take a moment to read what it says and understand it...but he is probably also a moron and wouldn't get past the bit about poor homeless people wanting in anyhow.

Its always been this way. First generations bring their customs and languages. Settle down in communities of similar ethnic background and future generations assimilate and add to american culture. The concept of being american is not a nationalistic ideal.

Wasn't there always a requirement that any immigrant coming to the US was screened to ensure they could contribute?

I also find it odd that the left is dipping back into the past, when on every other issue they seem to like to argue that documents and rules of the past can't be applied in modern times word for word. Yet here we are discussing the words on Statue of Liberty and applying it to 2017 immigration policy.

I also find it baffling that a similar system to Canada would be held up as racist - I thought Canada was the darling of the left, standing up to big bad Trump. I guess they are racist too now although the effect of the Canadian system actually meant more Asians being allowed in.

originally posted by: Butterfinger
Unskilled labor is exactly what we dont need at this point.

This is malarky. Our population is aging quickly and our birth rate is at an all time low. In order to sustain a positive rate of productivity increase, the only way to grow the workforce is with immigration. If we as a country want to reach Trump's economic growth numbers then we need more immigrants to help reach it. It's simple math.

Trump needs GDP growth, but one of his favorite policies works directly against him

A core problem for the administration is that labor force growth is one of two major drivers of gross domestic product, which measures the output of goods and services produced. More people produce more output; as the growth of the labor force slows, so does economic growth.

The growth in the labor force will slow further if the Trump administration pursues aggressive policies to limit immigration or expel undocumented workers already working in the U.S. — as he has promised to do.

Immigration also contributed to the American labor pool. But the growth of the workforce remains far lower than that in past decades, in part because aging baby boomers are retiring for good.

originally posted by: Gryphon66


Pointing out the core selfishness and utter hypocrisy of nativists is hardly calling for the entire population of the planet (which is actually closer to 7 billion) to move in.

Come on!

I figured 1 billion would be happy where they already live...

Do we really need massive immigration due to our US population being too low? Also if we go back to like the 80s the amount per year was about 300k, so what is a good number or is there even a good or bad number? This alignment pretty much matches Canada and Australia immigration polices so I'm not sure what the issue is here.

One thing to think about is if you take lets say China and India do you think they could produce 50 million highly educated and capable candidates? Do you think southern Americas could produce 50 million highly skilled workers too? The 130 million American workers in the US is not a very big number compared to what is out there in the world as a whole that would love to replace everyone one of them. I do my job well, but I would bet there are 10,000 of foreigners that can do my job too and most likely bring more to the table with a PHD, work for a lot less, willing to work 12 hours a day and so on.

Are we at the point we should just open the flood gates and have the attitude that Americans need to compete with the whole world to live? We already have abuse with the H-1B visa system that has ended up getting top labor around the world for pennies on the dollar.

We also have seen in Europe and here at home that legal/illegal immigrants do not want to come to a new country and adopt that countries life styles and beliefs, they want to change these countries to their lifestyles/beliefs based on their true homeland.

In 1890 we were 62 million, by 1900 we were 76 million (21% increase) and today we are 330 million, so do we really need that big of a growth of immigration that was good back when the Statue and message were created? We can not control population growth throughout the world but we can control that growth in America and when the population on the planet hit 10 billion that going to be billions more that would just love to come here and compete with Americans for their jobs as I explained above...great workers willing to do more for a less...

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Butterfinger
Unskilled labor is exactly what we dont need at this point.

This is malarky. Our population is aging quickly and our birth rate is at an all time low. In order to sustain a positive rate of productivity increase, the only way to grow the workforce is with immigration. If we as a country want to reach Trump's economic growth numbers then we need more immigrants to help reach it. It's simple math.

Makes sense, however if you want productivity to go up, it's best to bring people in that want to work and can fill skills gaps.

At a high level the equation SHOULD be pretty simple.

Some smart person projects industry growth over the next 20 years or so based on where the US wants to compete strategically.
Resource requirements by skill set is assessed.
A gap analysis to current skill set is carried out.
A points system is structured around requirements to meet demand.

I would assume someone is doing this already in govt.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
We also have seen in Europe and here at home that legal/illegal immigrants do not want to come to a new country and adopt that countries life styles and beliefs, they want to change these countries to their lifestyles/beliefs based on their true homeland.

No we haven't. What we have seen is that people who grow up in a particular culture but move to a different one don't 100% abandon that culture when going to the new culture. But this isn't any brand new revelation. It is something that we've known about for literally EVERY immigration wave that has ever occurred throughout human history. What happens is that the immigrants don't mesh fluidly with the new culture because they don't fully know the new culture, BUT their children end up growing up in the new culture and have a much easier time meshing with the culture. The children's children become so ingrained into the culture that they may even contribute to newer anti-immigrant waves.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Butterfinger
Unskilled labor is exactly what we dont need at this point.

This is malarky. Our population is aging quickly and our birth rate is at an all time low. In order to sustain a positive rate of productivity increase, the only way to grow the workforce is with immigration. If we as a country want to reach Trump's economic growth numbers then we need more immigrants to help reach it. It's simple math.

Makes sense, however if you want productivity to go up, it's best to bring people in that want to work and can fill skills gaps.

Yes which illegals and unskilled immigrants looking for work tend to fit that mold. Also, immigrants are more likely to start new businesses.
Immigrants Are Twice as Likely to Start a Business. Let's Let Them.

Immigration laws and immigration policies should be flexible and not cut in stone.

They need to be tweaked to accommodate changes in our economy, changes in security concerns, issues on the global stage, and any other matter that affects our country and our people.

Sometimes there needs to be periods when immigration is halted altogether.

Right now, we need highly skilled English-speaking self sufficient immigrants. Illegal immigration has reached a dangerous place at this time and we need to be tougher at enforcing the laws that are on the books to stop it.

There is unrest south of the border, not only in Mexico where drug cartels rule some areas, but in El Salvador and other Central American countries. Further down in places like Venezuela, the social unrest is out of control. We do not need tens of thousands (remember 2014 and 2015???) of people flooding over the border illegally.

Like it or not, The Wall has become a necessity at this point in time.

Common sense needs to be re-established because, gawd knows, too many have lost it!

originally posted by: Byrd
I'm into genealogy, and all you have to do is go back a few generations to find these folks coming to America. My great-grandfather was one of those Scots pushed off his farmland - although he immigrated, he never signed a loyalty oath to the US and never was naturalized. He was basically an illegal immigrant.

Times do change things though. Today, if you give a green card to someone that has a poor chance of becoming independent due to a number of lacking points they become only a burden on society. Back when your grandfather was here there was no burden...he either found work or starved...hehe

If we look at Germany they took in 2.1 million refugees...how is that going for them? The cost of those refugees if the numbers do not increase will be 1 to 2.5 trillion euros to the tax payers. That is with only 2.1 million ... Germany already has a 6 trillion deficit, so how is this any good for Germany in anyway?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Butterfinger
Unskilled labor is exactly what we dont need at this point.

This is malarky. Our population is aging quickly and our birth rate is at an all time low. In order to sustain a positive rate of productivity increase, the only way to grow the workforce is with immigration. If we as a country want to reach Trump's economic growth numbers then we need more immigrants to help reach it. It's simple math.

Makes sense, however if you want productivity to go up, it's best to bring people in that want to work and can fill skills gaps.

Yes which illegals and unskilled immigrants looking for work tend to fit that mold. Also, immigrants are more likely to start new businesses.
Immigrants Are Twice as Likely to Start a Business. Let's Let Them.

Which immigrants are more likely to start a new business?
The discussion is about prioritisation not immigration vs no immigration.
Now if it was possible to implement a points based system that made it easier to prioritise immigrants who could be successful entrepreneurs, wouldn't that be great.

originally posted by: queenofswords
Right now, we need highly skilled English-speaking self sufficient immigrants. Illegal immigration has reached a dangerous place at this time and we need to be tougher at enforcing the laws that are on the books to stop it.

There is unrest south of the border, not only in Mexico where drug cartels rule some areas, but in El Salvador and other Central American countries. Further down in places like Venezuela, the social unrest is out of control. We do not need tens of thousands (remember 2014 and 2015???) of people flooding over the border illegally.

Lol. Illegal immigration has reached dangerous levels? Then you talk about border hoppers.
Staggering number of visa overstays now biggest problem in illegal immigration
I'm not sure you are up-to-date on what is what in the illegal immigration discussion.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Butterfinger
Unskilled labor is exactly what we dont need at this point.

This is malarky. Our population is aging quickly and our birth rate is at an all time low. In order to sustain a positive rate of productivity increase, the only way to grow the workforce is with immigration. If we as a country want to reach Trump's economic growth numbers then we need more immigrants to help reach it. It's simple math.

Makes sense, however if you want productivity to go up, it's best to bring people in that want to work and can fill skills gaps.

Yes which illegals and unskilled immigrants looking for work tend to fit that mold. Also, immigrants are more likely to start new businesses.
Immigrants Are Twice as Likely to Start a Business. Let's Let Them.

Which immigrants are more likely to start a new business?
The discussion is about prioritisation not immigration vs no immigration.
Now if it was possible to implement a points based system that made it easier to prioritise immigrants who could be successful entrepreneurs, wouldn't that be great.

Maybe to you, but Trump has just come out saying he wants to reduce legal immigration numbers by 50% from 1,000,000 to 500,000 immigrants (42% reduction in the first year alone). Also that points based system IS what they are trying to implement. It's just in addition to shrinking immigration numbers by half, which most to all economists agree is a dumb thing to do. I don't really have a problem with the merit based system though, except for the fact that there are tons of Americans who wouldn't be able to pass that merit system but nothing is done about their ignorance.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: queenofswords
Right now, we need highly skilled English-speaking self sufficient immigrants. Illegal immigration has reached a dangerous place at this time and we need to be tougher at enforcing the laws that are on the books to stop it.

There is unrest south of the border, not only in Mexico where drug cartels rule some areas, but in El Salvador and other Central American countries. Further down in places like Venezuela, the social unrest is out of control. We do not need tens of thousands (remember 2014 and 2015???) of people flooding over the border illegally.

Lol. Illegal immigration has reached dangerous levels? Then you talk about border hoppers.
Staggering number of visa overstays now biggest problem in illegal immigration
I'm not sure you are up-to-date on what is what in the illegal immigration discussion.

Whatever it is that you are arguing, doesn't make sense. I think you are one of those people that have lost the ability to use common sense.

We DO have border hoppers and we do have people overstaying their visas. Both are illegal. Both are potentially dangerous. Both need to be dealt with.

If you don't think the turmoil and civil unrest going on south of our border is going to be a big problem for the US border at some point, you have completely lost the ability to reason.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
there are tons of Americans who wouldn't be able to pass that merit system but nothing is done about their ignorance.

Why would they need to, they're the REAL Americans

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Butterfinger
Unskilled labor is exactly what we dont need at this point.

This is malarky. Our population is aging quickly and our birth rate is at an all time low. In order to sustain a positive rate of productivity increase, the only way to grow the workforce is with immigration. If we as a country want to reach Trump's economic growth numbers then we need more immigrants to help reach it. It's simple math.

Makes sense, however if you want productivity to go up, it's best to bring people in that want to work and can fill skills gaps.

Yes which illegals and unskilled immigrants looking for work tend to fit that mold. Also, immigrants are more likely to start new businesses.
Immigrants Are Twice as Likely to Start a Business. Let's Let Them.

Which immigrants are more likely to start a new business?
The discussion is about prioritisation not immigration vs no immigration.
Now if it was possible to implement a points based system that made it easier to prioritise immigrants who could be successful entrepreneurs, wouldn't that be great.

Maybe to you, but Trump has just come out saying he wants to reduce legal immigration numbers by 50% from 1,000,000 to 500,000 immigrants (42% reduction in the first year alone). Also that points based system IS what they are trying to implement. It's just in addition to shrinking immigration numbers by half, which most to all economists agree is a dumb thing to do. I don't really have a problem with the merit based system though, except for the fact that there are tons of Americans who wouldn't be able to pass that merit system but nothing is done about their ignorance.

Unless the proposal is to stop immigration, the discussion is about prioritisation of required skill sets. Period.
I simply don't understand the need to rush into black and white arguments and hysteria.

I actually do agree with you that reducing immigration to 500000 might not be the optimal number and perhaps it should stay higher. Again, it should be driven by demand.

As for you last point, it's not a sensible one. If you run an immigration policy based on your lowest common denominator (because you don't want immigrants to have to be any smarter than your dumbest citizen), then you'll quickly fill up with uneducated and unproductive idiots flooding into the country.

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
there are tons of Americans who wouldn't be able to pass that merit system but nothing is done about their ignorance.

Why would they need to, they're the REAL Americans

That comment you replied to is actually an important one because it reveals the mind set. There is no concept of nationality or nation with some people. i.e. no USA at all, just a land mass and resources that everyone in the world should be entitled to. It's why the debates about immigration policy or foreign policy can be so strange.