WH clarified Statue of Liberty Poem - Not actually part of American Values

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: Gothmog
I bolded that part as evidently you do not understand US Immigration Policy

Oh I'm quite aware of the requirement. My OP references the exchange between Steven and Jim, not my own thoughts on the matter. I was positing it here to see what a collection of thoughts from all angles of the spectrum would think.

Then someone needs deported...
And the "poem" reflected a time when folks immigrated to the US to become citizens . The "melting pot of the world" instead of trying to change the US into the country they left behind..

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: Wayfarer

Just afterwards Steven and Jim have a back and forth on the English speaking requirement for the new immigration policy Trump's put forth, with Jim obviously referencing the lack of 'English Speaking' or a list of countries that are acceptable.

I bolded that part as evidently you do not understand US Immigration Policy . I have friends that have became US citizens within the last few years. Legally . African . Iraqi . They had to learn about the US and had to take tests (in English only) to qualify . Tests that I dont think most of the US citizens could pass.
It has always been that the major requirement was to speak English . From day 1.
Want to challenge ?

I'm not arguing one way or the other - - this is just what I found.

Exceptions & Accommodations

There are exceptions and modifications to the naturalization requirements that are available to those who qualify. USCIS also provides accommodations for individuals with disabilities.

English Language Exemptions

You Are Exempt From The English Language Requirement, But Are Still Required To Take The Civics Test If You Are:

>Age 50 or older at the time of filing for naturalization and have lived as a permanent resident (green card holder) in the United States for 20 years (commonly referred to as the “50/20” exception).

>OR Age 55 or older at the time of filing for naturalization and have lived as a permanent resident in the United States for 15 years (commonly referred to as the “55/15” exception).

Note:

>Even if you qualify for the “50/20” or “55/15” English language exceptions listed above, you must still take the civics test.

>You will be permitted to take the civics test in your native language.

>If you take the test in your native language, you must bring an interpreter with you to your interview. Your interpreter must be fluent in both English and your native language.

>If you are age 65 or older and have been a permanent resident for at least 20 years at the time of filing for naturalization, you will be given special consideration regarding the civics requirement.

www.uscis.gov...

I wasn't aware that a poem written in 1883 defined modern immigration policy and could never be changed.

originally posted by: bluesjr
a reply to: Wayfarer

The poem was written at a time when it was expected that all coming here would do so legally. I don't think it should be interpreted as support for open borders.

Don't forget total lack of social safety net.

a reply to: Annee

Those are exemptions for people 50 and older.


A. Educational Requirements
An officer administers a naturalization test to determine whether an applicant meets the English and civics requirements.
The naturalization test consists of two components:
•English language proficiency, which is determined by the applicant’s ability to read, write, speak and understand English; and
•Knowledge of U.S. history and government, which is determined by a civics test.
An applicant has two opportunities to pass the English and civics tests: the initial examination and the re-examination interview. USCIS will deny the naturalization application if the applicant fails to pass any portion of the tests after two attempts. In cases where an applicant requests a USCIS hearing on the denial, officers must administer any failed portion of the tests. [1]
Unless excused by USCIS, the applicant’s failure to appear at the re-examination for testing or to take the tests at an examination or hearing counts as a failed attempt to pass the test.

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: Gothmog
I bolded that part as evidently you do not understand US Immigration Policy

Oh I'm quite aware of the requirement. My OP references the exchange between Steven and Jim, not my own thoughts on the matter. I was positing it here to see what a collection of thoughts from all angles of the spectrum would think.

Then someone needs deported...
And the "poem" reflected a time when folks immigrated to the US to become citizens . The "melting pot of the world" instead of trying to change the US into the country they left behind..

People don't want to come here to be Americans anymore. My ancestors came from through Ellis Island from Italy to be Americans. They actually dropped speaking Italian (I wish they hadn't) to assimilate. These days most people want to come to live off the government and couldn't care less about this country.

a reply to: Annee
No where did I say that they were not exceptions. But those are very very few.
You need to read my other post on the subject .
And , as this is about the "poem" on the Statue of Liberty , the addition of "taking the test in the native language" came much,much later.
So , before you call me out , do your due diligence .

ETA - My friends PROUDLY took the test in English

a reply to: Teikiatsu

Were you aware that the poem "The New Colossus" was to help raise money to pay for the pedestal that Lady Liberty stands on?

Were you aware that the site didn't open until 1886?

Hmmm ... Wiki

For many of our ancestors who came to this country, that site and that poem signified America.

/shrug But I guess it's just some old copper and brass and stone to some.

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: Annee
No where did I say that they were not exceptions. But those are very very few.
You need to read my other post on the subject .
And , as this is about the "poem" on the Statue of Liberty , the addition of "taking the test in the native language" came much,much later.
So , before you call me out , do your due diligence .

ETA - My friends PROUDLY took the test in English

I'm not calling anybody out.

I don't remember you putting a timeline on your post.

There are exceptions. I'd say hardly a few - - since it's clear its by age.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: Annee
No where did I say that they were not exceptions. But those are very very few.
You need to read my other post on the subject .
And , as this is about the "poem" on the Statue of Liberty , the addition of "taking the test in the native language" came much,much later.
So , before you call me out , do your due diligence .

ETA - My friends PROUDLY took the test in English

I'm not calling anybody out.

I don't remember you putting a timeline on your post.

There are exceptions. I'd say hardly a few - - since it's clear its by age.

I would say it is a very few as the age is 50....
Yes...so why dd you even try ?

This presser was so crazy. Talk about cognitive dissonance. And Miller is a smirking asshat. WTH? #shameless

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: Annee
No where did I say that they were not exceptions. But those are very very few.
You need to read my other post on the subject .
And , as this is about the "poem" on the Statue of Liberty , the addition of "taking the test in the native language" came much,much later.
So , before you call me out , do your due diligence .

ETA - My friends PROUDLY took the test in English

I'm not calling anybody out.

I don't remember you putting a timeline on your post.

There are exceptions. I'd say hardly a few - - since it's clear its by age.

I would say it is a very few as the age is 50....
Yes...so why dd you even try ?

Seriously?

You offered a challenge.

I answered.

You are wrong. Not everyone is required to take the test in English.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Teikiatsu

Were you aware that the poem "The New Colossus" was to help raise money to pay for the pedestal that Lady Liberty stands on?

Were you aware that the site didn't open until 1886?

Hmmm ... Wiki

Yes. What's your point?

For many of our ancestors who came to this country, that site and that poem signified America.

The ones who came in legally through Ellis Island after 1903 when the poem was finally added to the pedestal as an afterthought? The ones who worked to feed and clothe themselves without any federal assistance, you mean?

Are you aware that the statue was intended to represent the Union's victory over the Confederacy, free the slaves, and inspire the French people to rise up against Napoleon?

You are aware that the poem did not inspire the statue, right?

/shrug But I guess it's just some old copper and brass and stone to some.

To some. And to other it's apparently an open invitation to trespass into the jurisdiction of a sovereign nation.

originally posted by: fiverx313
it's indicative of american values as i understand them, although i am coming to understand more and more that many of my fellow american are operating more along the lines of i've got mine, screw everyone else.

So would you like 6 billion to come here? Lot's of people in the world....

a reply to: Teikiatsu

You provided the date of the poem (1883) with the suggestion that it "wasn't part of immigration policy."

Well, not surprisingly, that's a merely a huge strawman. No one suggested that "immigration policy" was based on a poem.

What Acosta did say, and others, and what I said, was that the words of the poem ADDED to the history of America. We did become a shining beacon to the world representing opportunity and freedom for those who came here.

The Statue was always intended to reflect American independence (a big hint is the date on the tablet she holds: July 4, 1776).Those who came here DID come (for the most part) right under the Statue of Liberty. The symbol, as symbols often do, became larger and more inclusive than it's creators intended.

The poem was not merely "added as an afterthought" ... it was a part of the effort to create the site. What rot!

"Trespass into the jurisdiction of a sovereign nation?" Yes, you sound exactly like the snide nativists who have always opposed immigration and opportunity ... which probably benefited your own ancestors.

Yeah, you're a direct philosophical descendant of the spirit of the Alien and Sedition Acts ... except that you might remember, we as a nation chose to repeal those, and the concept, in the Election of Thomas Jefferson in 1800. Your ideologies reared up again with the founding of "The American Party" in the mid-1800s trying to keep out Catholics, and those efforts expanded over the next 50 years to Germans, Jews, Italians, Poles, Chinese and others (like the revival of the Ku Klux Klan).

The arguments have always been the same. "They're going to take our jobs." "They're going to bring crime."

Just remember "THEY" are US now (and will be again.)

a reply to: Xtrozero

Hey, you modified strawman with ad absurdum ... tricky ...

And downright silly.

Pointing out the core selfishness and utter hypocrisy of nativists is hardly calling for the entire population of the planet (which is actually closer to 7 billion) to move in.

Come on!

originally posted by: Wayfarer

What say you ATS, is the poem indicative of American values or as Steven Miller suggest an afterthought added later and not indicative of American values?

Well for starters, bringing the language barrier into the discussion was incredibly stupid. Especially with respect to this topic, being the poem...it's written in English, so anyone who didn't speak English wouldn't understand it anyway.

One thing I do agree with, is the fact that if you're coming to the USA to escape your tyranny or oppression from your current culture, then you should embrace our culture and not attempt to install any version of your own culture...I mean let's face it, that's what you're escaping from allegedly.

The Statue of Liberty and her poem is 100% indicative of our values as Americans (read: should be) and to taint that with unnecessary and irresponsible immigration policy stances leaves me wondering why I spent so much time in the military.

originally posted by: Byrd
a reply to: Wayfarer

When our ancestors came here, it certainly was indicative of the American spirit. Nowadays... we've forgotten a lot of things that our ancestors found admirable.

Not really. Anti-immigration backlash and bigotry following periods of pro-immigration is just as much part of American tradition as us accepting immigrants from around the world. The KKK saw its resurgence in the 20's and 30's in part to a backlash against all the immigration from the two previous decades.

If you are an Irish-American you should know all about American immigrant bigotry, or your family should.

originally posted by: kosmicjack
This presser was so crazy. Talk about cognitive dissonance. And Miller is a smirking asshat. WTH? #shameless

Actually, if you look at it from a different viewpoint, it's probably not as crazy as it seems. First you have President Trump standing with Cotton and Perdue at his side was an intentional ploy to play to his base and that's it. They all know there isnt a snowballs chance in hell of getting passed. In fact, I would say it's carefully crafted to ensure it does NOT get passed so the President can once again lay blame at the feet of Congress for his personal failures. Then you have the (expected) outrage from Acosta when language comes into play.

This President has a history of creating a new reality when the one that surrounds him isn't to his liking, and honestly he can last longer in those newly acquired realities than anyone in the press can in waiting for intellectually honest responses about it.

a reply to: Gothmog

Well it's clear you don't study history.
9 Signs of Discrimination Irish Americans Had To Put Up With

The Irish American bias was dependent on gender. The Irish women were stereotyped as reckless ‘‘breeders’’ owing to the large family sizes compared to those of the Protestants. The American Protestants feared the high birth rates shown by the Catholics would ultimately result in Protestant minority. They also feared that Irish political takeovers could occur, and Catholicism would become the dominant faith.