My brother said... (about dress code and rape)

a reply to: Bluesma

Clearly you can over analyse.

Making excuses for the behaviour of some men I suppose would depend upon your socio-economic circle and the values that they set the example of.

My son's first instinct, and that of his friends, upon seeing a vulnerable girl, is not to take advantage of her, but to see if she needs any help. The same applies to the vast majority of the men that I know.

The motivations for rape are many fold. One line of thinking goes like this: "She's showing me her body but she is turning away from me. Aren't I good enough for her? Does she think she is too good? I bet I can wipe that smile off her face (whether your smiling or not, whether you even noticed him or not)". So yes, it is about control. It is the product of a sick ego and sick line of reasoning.

So at least some rapes are provoked by what the victim is wearing, or any other mode of "come on" messages (perceived or real) that the perpetrator is getting. It can be certain actions that are perceived as showing interest in the perpetrator like swinging your shoe at the end of your toes. Remember it isn't about what is going on in the victim's head but in the perpetrator's. The perpetrator is the one at fault and needs to change their "ideas" about rejection and control.

originally posted by: Cinrad
Remember it isn't about what is going on in the victim's head but in the perpetrator's.

A good point, but as you also demonstrate, that isn't a very healthy line of 'reasoning', and it is not the dress of the intended victim that is causing those thoughts, it is her unavailability to him and probably some underlying sadism. The way she is dressed is largely irrelevant, that is just an excuse and an attempt to justify his behaviour. That multitudes of other men who may come into contact with her can probably testify to because they do not have those kinds of thoughts when they look at her. There is a reason why the lawyers of the defendant try to get majority female jury, men don't make those excuses for each other unless they share the same socio-developmental deviancy.

originally posted by: Anaana
a reply to: Bluesma

Clearly you can over analyse.

Making excuses for the behaviour of some men I suppose would depend upon your socio-economic circle and the values that they set the example of.

My son's first instinct, and that of his friends, upon seeing a vulnerable girl, is not to take advantage of her, but to see if she needs any help. The same applies to the vast majority of the men that I know.

It's not making excuses. Holding them responsible for their behavior is what I have repeatedly said I agree with.

Apparently it is not the response of the vaste majority of men, because rape happens so often.

I think it is a mistake to lie to girls and tell them all men are trustworthy and they can play with all of them however they want with no risk.

originally posted by: Bluesma
I think it is a mistake to lie to girls and tell them all men are trustworthy and they can play with all of them however they want with no risk.

It would be a lie to teach boys that all girls/women are trustworthy too. I don't see what that has to do with the matter at hand - rape and whether the way a women dresses invites rape. You are still woefully failing to comprehend the difference between rape and having a drunken, misjudged fumble with your ex. Can women be stupid, and make stupid decisions? Yes, so can men. Do people with affluent lifestyles have greater recourse to use the law to their own advantage and maliciously? Definately. Is that representative of the majority of society? No.

In relation to the number of consensual acts of sex that take place, yes, rape represents a very small proportion of all sex acts.

a reply to: Anaana

Thank you. I applaud your interaction with the poster who is making excuses for victim shaming. I myself am not responding because I have no desire to get post-banned. That is some of the most backward, despicable sh!t I have ever seen posted on ATS and I do not trust myself to reply.

originally posted by: Anaana

originally posted by: Bluesma
I think it is a mistake to lie to girls and tell them all men are trustworthy and they can play with all of them however they want with no risk.

It would be a lie to teach boys that all girls/women are trustworthy too. I don't see what that has to do with the matter at hand - rape and whether the way a women dresses invites rape. You are still woefully failing to comprehend the difference between rape and having a drunken, misjudged fumble with your ex. Can women be stupid, and make stupid decisions? Yes, so can men. Do people with affluent lifestyles have greater recourse to use the law to their own advantage and maliciously? Definately. Is that representative of the majority of society? No.

In relation to the number of consensual acts of sex that take place, yes, rape represents a very small proportion of all sex acts.

So all of my repeated references to both young men and young women being prone to mis-using their power, due to lack of experience and lack of guidance in the matter, has woefully escaped your eye as you read?

Yes, I am, and have been pointing out a subtility here, which I think makes blanket judgement unreliable.

It also opens up the door to abuse by those with less developed sense of responsibility.

I get the feeling it is impossible, in this discussion to examine the question in such subtilities because of tendency to look for a polarizing blame instead of preventative actions.

Like pyramid schemes exist, so we teach our kids to be careful of them and not jump into any offer made without discernment. Dos that relieve those who are doing pyramid schemes of their responsibility and blame?
No. Same applies here.

originally posted by: tigertatzen
a reply to: Anaana

Thank you. I applaud your interaction with the poster who is making excuses for victim shaming. I myself am not responding because I have no desire to get post-banned. That is some of the most backward, despicable sh!t I have ever seen posted on ATS and I do not trust myself to reply.

Well, you have the right to your opinion.

I don't support victim shaming. I just feel we should do whatever we can to keep our kids from becoming victims.

a reply to: Bluesma

You seem to be completely incapable of stepping out of your gray little area and appreciating that there is a whole wide swathe of black and white.

I don't believe that sex is a commodity, therefore I don't believe in teaching those values to either sex. I presume that in your social circle sex is a commodity, since you think of it in terms of having and controlling that power. This may explain to you your feelings and experiences of what you believe to be rape, but as you point out, they are not, they are commodity trades. Nothing to do with rape. Outside of those kinds of socio-economic dynamics, rape is something quite different, which is not to say that rape does not occur in those socio-economic circles.

originally posted by: Bluesma
I just feel we should do whatever we can to keep our kids from becoming victims.

In the majority of rapes, there is very little that the victim did that they hadn't done a hundred times before, they occurred because the victim was available and vulnerable, and no one was watching their back. Nothing that they did invited that kind of attention. Nothing other than being who they were, and where they were.

Teaching our kids to be kind and caring, considerate and respectful of others regardless of gender as well as understanding of the dangers inherent in their environment, is what we should be aiming for. Not all men are like your sons, and the men that you know, unable to communicate their thoughts and full of pent up emotions and a sense of physical "power". I think that perhaps you should look at not judging all people by your own preferences.

originally posted by: geezlouise
a reply to: filthyphilanthropist

I would rather live in a world where we all get to walk around naked if we wanted to, knowing we are relatively safe doing it- than live in a world where we need to cover up and still fear being assaulted. That's my personal direction though. I'm tired of the shame of having a body and being human.

I read your OP than I read this reply. I cannot take seriously anything you have to say on this subject after this nonsense. We, as a species, do not live in the world you desire. No one is "relatively safe" in this world. No one has been since the days of hunter-gatherers to the dawn of civilization and no one is today. Violence can assault anyone at any time. Your kind of wishful thinking will not stop acts of violence. The Homo Sapien is a creature of violence and cruelty. As a species we have been combating this primal nature for a long time. Ever since the begining of civilization and law. This takes time. Evolution is slow. Homo Sapien lived in the wilds far, far longer than we have lived in civilization.

In regard to your shame. I can only say that I pity your point of view. No human being has a reason to be ashamed of the anima that governs our lives or the body we are born with. There are people that commit terrible acts upon us. That fact does not give you the right to judge our species by that standard.

In short you may wallow in self pity and guilt if you choose. I will not participate in self destructive behavior.

originally posted by: filthyphilanthropist

Apart from rape, clothing really affects how one is viewed in general. We should encourage both men and women to dress modestly because modesty is a sign of classiness.

Perhaps male children should be brought up from the cradle to respect

people and females in particular. And less of the nudge, nudge, wink, wink,

attitude that he's one of the boy's and thats just what men do.


We should allow men and women the choice to dress how they like .... modesty

may be a sign of *classiness* but it is not a sign of morality.

originally posted by: paraphi

Rape is unacceptable. Using the "... she was dressed for it" excuse is no longer accepted in most civilised courts.
Education and precedent is reducing misogyny in the West, including the US.

^^^^Education^^^^


Trouble being that because of social media access to porn has usually been

accessed by many? .... the majority? .... of boys, whether deliberately or by

accident. And therefor becomes their first point of sex education ....

Not a good starting point

originally posted by: geezlouise
a reply to: Tucket

Idk, I think you're the one who's showing ignorance.

And we've really got no excuse. Because there's that wealth of information at the ends of our fingertips, all of that knowledge just sitting there in a mountainous pile just waiting for you to sift through it and make sense of it all and find the answers... it's called google and the internet. But you don't want the answers. Do you?

I see youve chosen the path of denial...fine...I certainly agree people should wear what they want..

You should wear you're skimpy clothing with a gun strapped to your waist...

safe and super duper sexy...sure to make all the boys and would be rapists squirm..

originally posted by: Anaana
a reply to: Bluesma

You seem to be completely incapable of stepping out of your gray little area and appreciating that there is a whole wide swathe of black and white.

I admit, I rather feel repulsed to extremism and polarization of issues into black and white, evil vs. good, good guys and bad guys, etc. I feel the human being (and life in general) cannot be realistically placed into such a vision. It is easier to see that way, but easy is not always best.

I don't believe that sex is a commodity, therefore I don't believe in teaching those values to either sex.

I think sex is often treated as commodity - by americans especially. Look at the "hold out for marriage" idea... that treats sex as a commodity. I think such attitudes are detrimental to human relations. I think manipulating people with your imposing physical strength, or your sexual strength, is a misuse of your body and possibly dangerous.

I also don't think such abuses are done with conscious intent- I think, as I have said, that it is often a result of lack of comprehension, lack of knowledge, lack of guidance in the matter.

a reply to: geezlouise

If you dress like a pig you should expect to be treated like one.

originally posted by: Anaana

In the majority of rapes, there is very little that the victim did that they hadn't done a hundred times before, they occurred because the victim was available and vulnerable, and no one was watching their back. Nothing that they did invited that kind of attention. Nothing other than being who they were, and where they were.

Why not teach a girl to have someone with them, watching their back, in contexts and environments which are possibly dangerous?

And yes, sometimes girls get raped because they were grinding up against drunk strangers on the pool table topless. It happens. Sometimes they do it many times before *that* person who isn't right in the head walks in. I just don't understand why anyone would insist so strongly that this is behavior we should encourage in young people. But whatever. We've shared our opposing views, and we can agree to disagree. I taught my daughter that is a not a good idea. She doesn't do that. She also discourages her girlfriends from doing it, and explains what I did- this is a room of fifty drunk strangers- there is a high probability that one or more of them could be stupid, have confused and twisted ideas about women, or be simply a sadist.

Not all men are like your sons, and the men that you know, unable to communicate their thoughts and full of pent up emotions and a sense of physical "power". I think that perhaps you should look at not judging all people by your own preferences.

WTF??? Are you unable to discuss something you disagree with without coming up with such slimy personal attacks???
MY sons have never done anything of the sort, and never would! I gave them the education I speak of- to know their impact on the world around and be careful with it. Most of my most troubling exchanges with young men have been online, they were in america, (and many of them here on ATS). There are some confused guys out there, growing up on porn and video game portrayals of women, and terribly maladapted to social life.

Jesus, to go and attack my family personally because you don't share my view is really low. My kids are adults and very respectful of others, thank you. If they weren't, I wouldn't feel so confident in what I was saying. I see it was effective.

Did you teach your kids to use that tactic when someone disagrees with them? "If they won't agree, start insulting them personally- especially their family" Is that what you have taught them is ethical respect for others?

originally posted by: Restricted
If you dress like a pig you should expect to be treated like one.

So the expectation you have for someone dressed provocatively is rape?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Restricted
If you dress like a pig you should expect to be treated like one.

So the expectation you have for someone dressed provocatively is rape?

Did I say that? No.

If you're half naked though, you're going to be treated like you're half naked.

originally posted by: Restricted
Did I say that? No.

If you're half naked though, you're going to be treated like you're half naked.

The Original Post is about rape in relation to how women dress.