My brother said... (about dress code and rape)

originally posted by: eletheia
I also believe this attitude comes about due to pornography being so easily

available, and is usually the first port of sex education to the very young

male.

Then too sex education is usually conducted by a teacher as a purely

reproductive exercise, and with no particular expertise in sexual/emotional

involvement. Giving the idea as ^^above^^ that sex is just what men do to

women and as long as she isnt hit or held down it isnt rape.

I agree in an ideal world and with an understanding that pornography is only a contributing factor. Admittedly I am female, but I was exposed to pornography at a very young age (in the years before the internet), but I have no issues with being able to control my sexual arousal.

That many of the "free" pornography sites offer gateways that are far, far, far too easy to stumble into unawares, is, personally, as a parent, my greatest concern. I haven't viewed pornography for a number of years now because I am unable to do so in good conscience. My choice. I don't need it, it was an easy choice to make. I don't seek to impose it on others. I set the example to my son that it is perfectly natural to want to look at pictures of naked ladies, that the human form in all it's shapes and size and variations is beautiful, but I also educate him on the dangers in the world and to understand why women are sometimes forced to sell their bodies to support themselves because they have limited education or options, but that there are also other men and women who choose to do that because it rewards them well.

a reply to: geezlouise

I was just reading this article, I thought you might find this insight interesting.

Victim blaming is not just about avoiding culpability—it's also about avoiding vulnerability. The more innocent a victim, the more threatening they are. Victims threaten our sense that the world is a safe and moral place, where good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people. When bad things happen to good people, it implies that no one is safe, that no matter how good we are, we too could be vulnerable. The idea that misfortune can be random, striking anyone at any time, is a terrifying thought, and yet we are faced every day with evidence that it may be true.

In the 1960s, social psychologist Dr. Melvin Lerner conducted a famous serious of studies in which he found that when participants observed another person receiving electric shocks and were unable to intervene, they began to derogate the victims. The more unfair and severe the suffering appeared to be, the greater the derogation. Follow up studies found that a similar phenomenon occurs when people evaluate victims of car accidents, rape, domestic violence, illness, and poverty. Research conducted by Dr. Ronnie Janoff-Bulman suggests that victims sometimes even derogate themselves, locating the cause of their suffering in their own behavior, but not in their enduring characteristics, in an effort to make negative events seem more controllable and therefore more avoidable in the future.

Lerner theorized that these victim blaming tendencies are rooted in the belief in a just world, a world where actions have predictable consequences and people can control what happens to them. It is captured in common phrases like "what goes around comes around" and "you reap what you sow." We want to believe that justice will come to wrongdoers, whereas good, honest people who follow the rules will be rewarded. Research has found, not surprisingly, that people who believe that the world is a just place are happier and less depressed. But this happiness may come at a cost—it may reduce our empathy for those who are suffering, and we may even contribute to their suffering by increasing stigmatization.

www.psychologytoday.com...

a reply to: Anaana

That IS interesting. I don't believe that victim blaming is as prevelant as some would suggest. Often, calling it "victim blaming" is used as a means to shut down any debate the same way a lot of PC things do. Kind of like an OP from a different thread said, "Anyone who disagrees is ignorant and simply doesn't want to believe the truth." Well, no. That's just him projecting.

While the two of us clearly disagree as to the extent, I will concede that victim blaming does exist in some capacity, and the article you provided is more than interesting.

Star!

A LOT of times people accuse others of "victim blaming" even when they are not, just to shut down all further discussion that doesn't go their way.

There is a reaction system of over-evaluating individual power in order to feel "secure" - you see that in the stupid "You can do anything you set your mind on" crap. It's all up to you, etc. It's as bad as the opposite extreme - you have no power at all, and it is all up to fate, destiny and chaos. They are both BS (as most extremist ideologies).

From my point of view, much of our lives, once adult, are a combination of self and not-self. As individuals we can only impact the potential of future events make something more or less likely, according to our actions.

That's why the black and white thing doesn't make sense to me.

If anyone here REALLY believes that you can't play a small part in influencing your chances of being date raped, would you go so far as to tell your daughter to go out after midnight, alone, dressed however she knows her part of the country considers highly provocative, to a singles bar, get totally wasted and dance on the table making lewd gestures to the men present? Would you counsel her to do that?

If it really makes no difference at all.....

If she gets raped, it wouldn't be her fault and he would have to be convicted, that's for sure.
But are you really sure that it would have been inevitable if she had been home in bed? Or in a club made for such behavior, which has strict rules and security?

By the way, we go to Libertine clubs (the closest thing in American terms is "swinging" clubs). I have never ever touched a stranger in these places, but they don't allow single men in, they do not serve or allow alcohol, and everyone is allowed to be as free as they want as long as they respect everyone else. I would feel panic attacks on the dance floor when men in "normal" clubs would cop a feel when it was crowded. So we found a context where we can dance and I feel safe. It isn't impossible - it is a matter of being able to accept and respect others as much as you yourself want to be accepted though.

I am only having a slight impact on potential though - life is not, cannot be, void of risk. But that is a sorry excuse for deciding to leave all decision making for your life up to others around you.

originally posted by: filthyphilanthropist
While the two of us clearly disagree as to the extent, I will concede that victim blaming does exist in some capacity, and the article you provided is more than interesting.

Thanks for taking the time to read it, I am not sure, yet, whether we do disagree on the extent, I'm still very much learning and it is challenging my own behaviours on a number of levels, but I actually feel the extent might even be greater or deeply seated than I thought. After all, if only 40 in every hundred rapes is even reported, what does that say about our understanding of the situation? Over and over I am reading that the reason that women and men do not come forward is because they are afraid of being blamed. If LEOs are doing all they can do to reassure victims, and there are support agencies bending over backwards to offer support, then yes, I do think that we need to see what messages are being sent by the media and in the home itself.

Another aspect is the 'corporate' role and responsibility, and of course the power and influence that such major corporations have. Having worked for most of my life in the hospitality industry I was interested in looking at those standards in terms of sexual assault. I have had more than my fair share of unwanted attention in this line of work and it is often considered as "part of the job", just as if you're pretty, it is similarly expected that you should "put up with" a certain level of intrusion of your personal boundaries. If you can't handle a problematic and handsy customer, you're not going to work for long in the industry is really what I was indoctrinated to, and I have accepted that, and I can take care of myself very well. However, worker's rights, sexual harrassment laws and their proper enforcement, has changed that, and indeed, it does seem to have increased worker safety across the board...which is good right? Yes and no, because there does seem to have been an increase at resorts, hotels and on cruise ships of guests being sexually assaulted and raped. I was reading about a 52 year old women who luckily realised that she had been drugged and was able to get to her husband in time to tell him, who knows what would have happened otherwise, but over and over, what was being reported is that the bigger the company the more that they will do to silence the victims if they can't pay them off. The use of victim shaming as a means of silencing victims seems alarmingly common, if victims are outspoken victims personal lives are used to shame and bring doubt upon the victim. We are being manipulated, but I don't think it is by the victims. The most natural thing in the world if something devastating and traumatic happens to someone is to ask "why?" and "why me?" What is wrong with that? And don't we all have a vested interest in knowing the honest answer to that? If there is nothing to hide, there is no need to sweep it under the carpet.

a reply to: Anaana

Thanks for taking the time to read it, I am not sure, yet, whether we do disagree on the extent, I'm still very much learning and it is challenging my own behaviours on a number of levels, but I actually feel the extent might even be greater or deeply seated than I thought. After all, if only 40 in every hundred rapes is even reported, what does that say about our understanding of the situation? Over and over I am reading that the reason that women and men do not come forward is because they are afraid of being blamed. If LEOs are doing all they can do to reassure victims, and there are support agencies bending over backwards to offer support, then yes, I do think that we need to see what messages are being sent by the media and in the home itself.

Where I live and work, all of the LEOs that may come in contact with a person that has been assaulted, receive training in how to care for a possible victim of assault. Training by itself is not really enough and the most important thing a first responder can do is to start by believing what the victim is saying, and to make sure the the victim's physical and mental needs are being addressed and take priority.

Even with mandatory training in place, it takes time for all of the team to be educated and trained. Unfortunately laws, rules, technology, and learning, changes rapidly. All first responders of the Sexual Abuse Response Team (SART) will not have the same level of experience, and circumstance of the assault could throw a member of the team into a tail spend.

Examples:
What do you say when a person is arrested for drunk and disorderly conduct and placed in jail for being uncooperative. After several hours in the jail cell the person's behavior was so disturbing that they sent him out for medical treatment and possible Baker Act placement. On examination and assessment in the ER, it became obvious that the person had sustained a severe trauma, there was no drugs or alcohol found in his system, and he was experiencing a psychotic break. This can happen in cases of severe trauma, and happens very often with those with Autistic Spectrum Disorder.

What do you say when the person is a minor and they deny they are a victim because they are in love with the 50 year old man they met on Tinder, and they are going to get married when she is old enough? What do you say when the person is a prostitute and they refuse to be involved in the activities the client wants to engage in, and the client decides that don't want to take no for an answer? What happens when the person meets a person on the website Sugar Babies and agrees to meet with a person that had lied about everything, locked them into a house and held them prisoner for several weeks, while pimping them out, then leaving them in a empty house when it became too dangerous to continue their operation out of the present location? This happens more often than people realize, including both males and females, and minors.

As far as victim blaming is concerned it is not as cut as dry as we think it is. It is culturally and psychologically ingrained into our psyche and the media plays a huge role in the process. It permeates our culture and our society. There is no malicious intent and it is so subliminal that it is nearly invisible.

Examples:
Ever watch a group of people watching a movie, playing video games, or a sports event? If a person is being stalked, gun downed, chased, or terrorized, it is never about getting the bad guy. You hear, "Don't go that way stupid!", "Get up!" "Get up!" "What is wrong with you!?" "Run!" "Run!" "Damn you!" "You idiot!" "Do you want to die!?" "You deserve to die you idiot!"

You never hear any chastising or calling for the bad guy not to be the bad guy, not to hurt the person, to just "STOP!"

It is always the victim that is criticized. The victim that is at fault. The victim that is responsible for making the problem right. The victim that is supposed to out wit, over power, and to get the bad guy. Because that is how the story goes.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
As far as victim blaming is concerned it is not as cut as dry as we think it is. It is culturally and psychologically ingrained into our psyche and the media plays a huge role in the process. It permeates our culture and our society. There is no malicious intent and it is so subliminal that it is nearly invisible.

Examples:
Ever watch a group of watching a movie, playing video games, or a sports event? If a person is being stalked, gun downed, chased, or terrorized, it is never about getting the bad guy. You hear, "Don't go that way stupid!, "Get up!" "Get up!" "What is wrong with you!?" "Run!" "Run!" "Damn you!" "You idiot!" "Do you want to die!?" "You deserve to die you idiot!"

You never hear any chastising or calling for the bad guy not to be the bad guy, not to hurt the person, to just "STOP!"

It is always the victim that is criticized. The victim that is at fault. The victim that is responsible for the making the problem right. The victim that is supposed to out wit, over power, and to get the bad guy. Because that is how the story goes.

This is what the thread has totally opened my eyes to, I had no idea how subtle it was. I appreciate that the media is not entirely to blame but do you think that they are doing enough to change perceptions? Or indeed do they express any willingness to do so?

I think that, as your examples amply demonstrate, each case is completely individual, even in serial attacks the similarities may be superficial. And men and women and children from ALL walks of life, in ALL circumstances, get raped. I personally am just as much concerned about being attacked by a knife, or otherwise assaulted, as I am of being raped, so if I am out on my own at night, I wouldn't consider my clothing to have anything to do with protecting myself other than to ensure that it doesn't hinder my movements, and I know that if someone really decided to target me, my legs and feet are what might get me out of there. The advice that I give my son is my tried and tested. I don't think any of that makes me immune but I see very little point in not doing the things I want to do, and more importantly a factor that we haven't addressed, the amount of times because of work, I have been on my own and isolated at work, I can't afford to. Many victims are already victims of circumstance, and poverty, and they have even less voice than the rest of us, I would expect, don't we have an obligation to protect others who don't have the means to get an escort to and from work? Or is that me just being very British?

Your opinion is demonstrably better informed than mine, why are we culturally predisposed to accept rape as a given?

a reply to: Anaana

Oh my god I have said the same things before.

And what that article is saying isn't even confined to crime and abuse situations. I've encountered other kinds of rejections/disbelief in other areas because I sometimes fall just outside of most peoples beliefs/personal understanding of the way our world works. Basically it's cognitive dissonance that I am facing. I see it everywhere now.

Thank you so much for sharing that.

a reply to: geezlouise

I am not sure if this is totally inappropriate, and please forgive me if it is, but this thread has totally brought back memories of me, my hot pants and Dr Marten boots. Good times.

My son expects girls to speak their minds, I like that about him.

a reply to: Anaana

I don't understand how that would be inappropriate, lol.

I think if we don't encourage one another to speak our minds then we're just dooming ourselves to play guessing games and learn doublespeak like in 1984 and that would be awful. I expect everyone to be straight with me and if they're not then that's their loss. Not mine.

originally posted by: geezlouise
a reply to: Anaana

I don't understand how that would be inappropriate, lol.

Well, ya know, I'd hate to think anyone thought I was trying to hold myself up as a good example to follow.

originally posted by: geezlouise
I think if we don't encourage one another to speak our minds then we're just dooming ourselves to play guessing games and learn doublespeak like in 1984 and that would be awful. I expect everyone to be straight with me and if they're not then that's their loss. Not mine.

I also think that there is this presumption that were all supposed to communicate with the world around us with our gender, just because I am biologically female doesn't mean that I am not human first and foremost. I don't want preferential treatment, I WANT my own experiences, I want to be measured by the same standards as all my peers, if I am to be measured at all.

No one has the right to use any form of force to impose upon us their world view, whether it is through sexual violence, or by telling us that they don't approve of the way we dress, or the way in which we deal with our own pain.

Thanks again, this thread has been a genuine learning experience and therefore, changing. Good stuff

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OK here is an interesting idea. Men often wear shorts and even go bare chested. Suppose if a man decided to rape another man who was scantily clad would the courts be correct in claiming that the scantily clad man asked for it?

Here is another point to consider. Many paedophiles claim that children initiated sexual contact by being provocative around them. would you defend such a person?

originally posted by: Tiger5
OK here is an interesting idea. Men often wear shorts and even go bare chested. Suppose if a man decided to rape another man who was scantily clad would the courts be correct in claiming that the scantily clad man asked for it?

Here is another point to consider. Many paedophiles claim that children initiated sexual contact by being provocative around them. would you defend such a person?

Nobody here has defended the nutcases who claim it was the fault of the victim.

a reply to: Tiger5

I agree.

And I'll never apologize for having nice things or being beautiful. Not that I think I have either but it's a sad day when I apologize to a thief for tempting them to steal from me and thus take responsibility for their behavior and actions. Because I am not responsible for anyone's actions but my own. Not even a little bit.

Even if I boasted about the things that I have (talents, skills, money, whatever it is), I still could not
take responsibility for your actions. Even if I walked around naked, it wouldn't be an invitation for anyone to touch me or sexualize me because little do people know... I'm always naked underneath my clothes. Just like everyone else. And it just is what it is. It's not strictly sexual, it's called being a human and having a body.

But I agree that we can all inspire one another and even provoke one another and so I have suggested, in the thread, that we all work towards creating a safer environment for all of us. Where we can have nice things, lol. Simpler said than done, but its the direction I would rather move in... instead of the alternative- accepting bad conditions and doing nothing to improve them.

a reply to: geezlouise

Perfectly put, and for what it's worth, I don't hear a victim when I read your words, I hear defiance. I like that.

originally posted by: geezlouise
that the problem with wearing short shorts and wearing revealing clothes is that there are rapists out there.

I was making the point that we should all basically get to wear whatever we like and if people stare then that's ok as long as no one crosses that line and invades your personal space and if you don't like being looked at then it is up to you to change your wardrobe, and etc. It's not rocket science. Being looked at isn't illegal, and it's not offensive imo. Everyone looks at everyone anyhow.

But my brother made the point that there are people who will cross that line so that's the problem so that's why we should watch what we wear.

And at first it sounds like a valid point , except I just remembered something that my therapist told me once and I'll never forget it because it's that important. She said... it's not about what you look like, at all. Because when I was young and when it happened to me? I basically looked like I was 8 years old and also I never wore makeup and I wore baggy clothes all the time. I was basically looking like a big baggy dork. I wasn't wearing short shorts and tight tanktops.

My therapist told me it's not because of what you look like... so it's not about what you're wearing. Rape isn't confined to any age or dress code. It's about control. For me, it wasn't short shorts that invited rape into my life... and the elderly are victims of rape so it's not about physical appearances at all.

So, we shouldn't continue to breed shame about our bodies via a stricter dress code... because if you keep going in that direction you'll just end up in a burka. And people will still be getting assaulted. Because rape isn't bound to any particular dress code and can't be prevented via dress code. That is all that I'm saying now.

Most men need to be "in control" one way or another. Not all of them...but, the one's that don't are few compared to those that do. Unfortunately, there are psychopaths and sociopaths out there who take the control thing to a different level. Rape IS a control thing. It has nothing to do with sex, or even what you wear. There are men (though, few and far between) who can see a woman dressed immodestly, and still be a gentleman. Most dude's would just leer and think not so nice thoughts. Most don't act on it in a violent manner...instead they just hit on the girl or woman. The true character of a man is one who can stand up to all that and still see that woman as a "person"....despite her apparel.
Usually, women or young girls who dress provocatively, think that's what they need to do to be valued...a lot of the time they were devalued by father figures or someone close to them. Sex sells in the world we live in. It's sad, but both men and women are being manipulated. Porn is a billion dollar industry, which devalues women (and men)...but mostly women. It causes them to be looked upon as "objects". Another sad fact.

It's sad so many women are subjected to rape....as well as children. Personally, I think any man that rapes Anyone needs to be castrated.
Just my .02 cents. (had it happen to me, too).

originally posted by: Tiger5
OK here is an interesting idea. Men often wear shorts and even go bare chested. Suppose if a man decided to rape another man who was scantily clad would the courts be correct in claiming that the scantily clad man asked for it?

Asking for it, is obviously not the right word. But that different dresses might affect different individuals in different ways, and that it may alter however slightly the probability of something happening, that's possible.

That said neither the rapist nor the victim is responsible. Neither determinism nor randomness allow for free will, these people are no different than a clock, which has no responsibility over the time it displays(even if you said self, the clock is not responsible for its internal mechanisms which are outside its control). A person is no more responsible for their actions, than they are for the actions in a movie they are watching.

Will also add, that if determinism is true, there are individuals who were going to be raped and people who were not going to be raped no matter what they did, the very moment written like any line within a book.

Also note that if death is not the end, do not expect a necessarily indefinitely happy ending. A 'good' person can go through horrible stuff, and a 'bad' person can go through the highs of life. Your fate is outside your control, and it might cycle through all manner of sensations. It is understandable for many to believe in 'heaven' or 'nothingness' after death, cause any other alternative would be terrifying for most.

Here is another point to consider. Many paedophiles claim that children initiated sexual contact by being provocative around them. would you defend such a person?

This depends on what you mean, prepubescent children obviously there would be no defense. A 15 year old that looks 18 in a bar with a fake id. That should not land someone in jail and sex offender registry.

a reply to: geezlouise

As a father, i hated seeing my daughter going out at the weekends with little on but i grew up in a very different world and never said anything about it BUT i hoped and prayed that nothing would ever happen to her because we have some sick animals running around this world and i despise rapists with a passion, nobody has the right to force themselves onto another being and any rapist should be imprisoned for life for the first offense, no if's or buts, LIFE with no parole, they just do not belong in society.

When i was in my 20's i was at a house party and passed out with alcohol and woke up to a woman who thought she had the right to RAPE ME and it took me 20 plus years before i could talk about that night, yes it does happen to men as well but i know that it is a very different story for a woman or a child, victim blaming should NEVER happen, rape is rape, man woman or child, rape is rape and it should be wiped out. Yes i hate the animals and i believe i have that right to hate the bastards...!

I know what your brother is saying but i also understand what you are saying, this should be a free world but reality is a different story, if a rapist has their eye on you it does not matter to them what you are wearing.
Please be careful "geez" no matter what you are wearing...!