Freemason's link to Hillsborough investigated by IPCC

a reply to: LABTECH767

Precisely. You put it well. I agree.

Thanks

MS

originally posted by: artistpoet
This is fuel for the fire of those grasping at straws who wish to demonize Freemasonary
Any group or organisation is open to corruption if this is the case

One bad apple does not mean the whole barrel is rotten
And it is insincere to use Freemasons as a scapegoat in that respect

Well, I have heard compelling arguments in favor and against the beneficial contributions of Freemasonary. Honestly, we suffer from information overload and it's nearly impossible to sort through all the data in order to glean the truth..
However, I agree with OP in that it's highly suspect that the Superintendant Duckinfeld's ascension to Worshipful Master (wtf?) the year after his extreme negligence in this case.

originally posted by: zosimov
...it's highly suspect that the Superintendant Duckinfeld's ascension to Worshipful Master (wtf?) the year after his extreme negligence in this case.

Not if you know how a lodge functions. The Master's position is preceded by the Senior Warden's and that by the Junior Warden. Once you become elected Junior Warden it is pretty much understood that you will be elected Master in two years time. It is the standard progression through the officer's chairs.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: VictorVonDoom
So there is no requirement for a Mason to help a fellow mason if requested? There is no oath to that effect?

Straight from an actual Masonic handbook. The second paragraph is given to all Entered Apprentice Masons, it is covered immediately upon initiation so there is no confusion:

Wow, that sucks. Looks like the founding fathers weren't very good Freemasons. Same for Albert Pike and all the other Confederate Freemasons, and he gets a statue in Washington DC.

Odd group, those Freemasons. They claim to know ancient secrets that can help you be a better person, but they can't just tell you. You have to go through these rituals and ceremonies and pay them money and they will help you. Then you have to keep these secrets.

Reminds me of a more recently formed organization.

originally posted by: VictorVonDoom
Wow, that sucks. Looks like the founding fathers weren't very good Freemasons. Same for Albert Pike and all the other Confederate Freemasons, and he gets a statue in Washington DC.

In the case of the American Revolution it has been discussed among Masonic historians that the injustices of British rule compelled those in favor of revolution to determine that the British government was no longer just and demanding of loyalty. There is an interesting Scottish Rite degree where Washington and Arnold have a fictitious conversation regarding this very dilemma.

As for the Civil War it could be argued that the Confederate States (and its citizens) held the same views as those during the Revolution, that the United States had become unjust. History can judge but what should also be kept in mind is that the notion of a strong Federal government was not the same as it is today, the individual states felt they had more authority and each Mason would most likely be more apt to conform to his states views ('The government in which he resided') than those of Washington DC.

It makes for a good theoretical debate but these are two very extreme examples and not at all good exemplars of adherence to daily life and laws.

Odd group, those Freemasons. They claim to know ancient secrets that can help you be a better person, but they can't just tell you.

Actually, we can, not sure where you are getting that information from.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Do you know, that did the black hand have any connections to Freemasons?

a reply to: twfau
Anti-Masons are using the disaster as a pretext to further intimidate and investigate Freemasonry. It's nothing more than a modern witch-hunt.

See: freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com...

a reply to: Kester
Your grandfather's opinion isn't reflective of all Freemasonry.

a reply to: VictorVonDoom
That is not an actual Masonic handbook, and your link is filled with many lies concerning Freemasonry.

You should realize that with our Obligations, that "higher ones" do not replace or supersede the "lower ones". The Obligation of the Entered Apprentice degree is as applicable to me as the Obligation I took at the 32nd degree.

Our Obligations also do not supersede the obligations we owe to God, country, neighbors, family, and so on.

a reply to: VictorVonDoom
We are charged to assist all in need, not just Masons. And we are also charged to obey the laws of the land.

a reply to: twfau
You say many police are Freemasons. What statistics are you pulling from?

a reply to: LABTECH767
The Mosaic Pavement is used by Freemasons, but the checkerboard design is not unique or exclusive to Freemasonry.

a reply to: Taggart
Bad Masons are the vast minority and being in Masonic groups in Idaho, Washington, Oregon, Wyoming, Ohio, Virginia, and DC (and having traveled around the world), I can say I'm not speaking for just my Lodge.

Your story is also uncorroborated.

Are you a member of the same lodge as the one in the article? No? Therefore you can't give an accurate description of the people or their methods.

So we as Masons cannot talk about other Masons? LOL

a reply to: VictorVonDoom
No. Those Founding Fathers who were Masons were good Masons.

Initiatic traditions are often secret, but there's nothing wrong with secrets or secrecy.

originally posted by: Joki42
a reply to: artistpoet

Absolute truth. Every institution, fraternity, company, ect. has bad people who do bad things. It doesn't mean the whole is bad. Think of this, there are easily millions of Freemasons in the world, all doing what Freemasonry strives at, Making good men better, and yet when someone does something wrong everyone is up in arms at the whole group. So quick to point out bad deeds by members and turn a blind eye to what the fraternity actually does, in plain site; like Masons 4 Mitts, the Shriner's hospitals for childten, this little ditty is far beyond enough to call these men Saints, scholarships for schools, community outreach, and the very fact that they are taking members of the community and helping them become better men, better husbands, better fathers, better friends. Freemasonry should be spoken of with aww and admiration, but you'd rather drag it through the muck. Shame

I can think of no way to say it better!! It saddens me that so many folks can talk trash about a group of men and spread lie after lie about something they know nothing about except what is on the "internet" and take it as the truth. We as a modern society are suppose to keep a open mind about all things in life for example BLM, radical Islam, political parties, LGBT, LEO and a whole host of other topics and issues yet when someone cries Freemason or Shriner (I happen to be both) people just go nuts with all kinds of ridiculous statements and spread false information.
It truly is a shame that there is such a double standard. Perhaps some people have ran across a Freemason who is just no good as a person and has used their standing in a lodge to benefit from being a member and that does happen but should not reflect on the entire group of us who take pride in being in this fraternity.

originally posted by: VictorVonDoom

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: VictorVonDoom
So there is no requirement for a Mason to help a fellow mason if requested? There is no oath to that effect?

Straight from an actual Masonic handbook. The second paragraph is given to all Entered Apprentice Masons, it is covered immediately upon initiation so there is no confusion:

Wow, that sucks. Looks like the founding fathers weren't very good Freemasons. Same for Albert Pike and all the other Confederate Freemasons, and he gets a statue in Washington DC.

Odd group, those Freemasons. They claim to know ancient secrets that can help you be a better person, but they can't just tell you. You have to go through these rituals and ceremonies and pay them money and they will help you. Then you have to keep these secrets.

Reminds me of a more recently formed organization.

Serious question here, what recently formed organization are you referring to?

originally posted by: solve
Do you know, that did the black hand have any connections to Freemasons?

Masonry predates the Cosa Nostra.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

Not if you know how a lodge functions. The Master's position is preceded by the Senior Warden's and that by the Junior Warden. Once you become elected Junior Warden it is pretty much understood that you will be elected Master in two years time. It is the standard progression through the officer's chairs.

I appreciate the info. Thanks! Perhaps I can pick your brain at some future date, learn more about this highly influential institution?

Years ago I had an excellent conversation with the Grand Lodge Tyler to the Irish Freemasons. He was both funny and well informed.. very interesting!

Cheers!

a reply to: KSigMason

All freemasons aren't police.

originally posted by: zosimov
Perhaps I can pick your brain at some future date, learn more about this highly influential institution?

No worries. Feel free to ask whatever you want.

a reply to: Kester
I'm very aware of that.

originally posted by: VictorVonDoom

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: VictorVonDoom
So there is no requirement for a Mason to help a fellow mason if requested? There is no oath to that effect?

Straight from an actual Masonic handbook. The second paragraph is given to all Entered Apprentice Masons, it is covered immediately upon initiation so there is no confusion:

Wow, that sucks. Looks like the founding fathers weren't very good Freemasons. Same for Albert Pike and all the other Confederate Freemasons, and he gets a statue in Washington DC.

Odd group, those Freemasons. They claim to know ancient secrets that can help you be a better person, but they can't just tell you. You have to go through these rituals and ceremonies and pay them money and they will help you. Then you have to keep these secrets.

Reminds me of a more recently formed organization.

I'll tell you anything you want to know about freemasonry save for the very few things I promised not to ever say. Problem usually is, you have no clue what you want to know. So prove me wrong, tell me all the things you want to learn the easy way.

a reply to: twfau

I wish there would be a real investigation and finish all this bull# once and for all. Freemasons are continually accused in situations like this where it's more likely that those accusing are just not smart enough to understand what freemasonry actually is, so they assume it's something nefarious.

The simple fact that it's gone this long without a real investigation should set off a few red flags that the corruption that exists is massive and needs outside influence to settle it. But I suppose the liberal mindset of those in the UK prevents any real action. Sad.

originally posted by: network dude

I'll tell you anything you want to know about freemasonry save for the very few things I promised not to ever say. Problem usually is, you have no clue what you want to know. So prove me wrong, tell me all the things you want to learn the easy way.

At this point, I'm just not as concerned with Freemasonry as I used to be. My problem was that I watched too many YouTube videos with titles like, "The Real Truth Behind Freemasons" and the like. With titles like that, it's got to be legit info, right?

But after giving the matter some thought, though, I realize it's no big deal. Just a bunch of old guys performing short Shakespeare In The Dark plays. I doubt there is any information or secrets that would have any impact on my life.

It would be nice to bid on their embroidery contracts, though. But chances are that work is reserved for Freemason businesses. But if it's not, and you could tell me who I need to contact to place bids, that would be some useful information to me.

a reply to: VictorVonDoom
With an attitude like that, our rituals wouldn't have any impact on your life.

Old guys? I'm 31.

Yea, Ksig just got the Towel award, in which he was able to dry behind his ears. I believe that concludes all the appointments that exist in freemasonry, he has them all now.