Christians: How do you interpret Revelation 21:8?

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

It is critical thinking that has made all the faulty swords people call the word of God today.

you either believe God at his word or you don't it is all a matter of faith not circle logic

Rev 21 there is a new heaven and new earth one without climate change, one without tears or sorrow, one without war and famine.

But those born on the earth in that future time outside the kingdom will like Adam, untried. They will have the witness of the new Jerusalem, they will have the witness of a perfect world and a perfect heaven with a perfect God. But there will still be those who will not believe and go into everlasting fire.

Now that is a sad situation because unlike today you can avoid all that.

Why would any one choose an eternity in hell over eternity with God?

None need to do so he need only call out to Him, and believe on his son Jesus Christ, that he died for your sins, was buried in your place, and rose again to give you everlasting life.

The choice is up to you.

Why wont you choose today?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Oh yeah. That's right


My bad.

So much NOPE.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

You would pick a sign from those who don't believe their Bible and disobey it in its simplest instructions of 1Cor 14.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Any person possessing critical thinking skills can understand that a magnificently powerful god would have no incentive, interest, or even the slightest inclination to inflict pain and suffering on dead people. Hell makes no sense and it represents an ill-fated and entirely avoidable error in the foundation of Christianity.

746 Reasons Christianity is False

Christianity credits what you believe far above what you do. This idea has caused much misery and suffering over the course of the past two millennia. The notion that what you believe can erase your bad deeds is a very attractive idea to someone who wants to take liberties with the lives and property of other people.

How different would the world be if Christianity instead declared that your ultimate reward is based on your actions, what you do, how you conduct your life, how much you help others, etc. instead of offering this exceptionally generous “get out of jail free” card? What if it said all of the good you do is balanced against the bad, and based on that comparison, you will be judged?

Want more?

I can give you plenty more.

How about this? A book and a movie, by Karen Armstrong:
A History of God (This links to the documentary.)
Oh, sorry, it's a dead link.........



You can read the book online, too:
www.faithfuleye.com...(Religion.-.Theology.-.Judaism.-.Chritianity.-.Islam).pdf

(For free. Take your time.)

Still not receptive?

Here's another eye-opening, and fun read:
The Evolution of God
by Robert Wright.

Read those, and then get back to me.

LOL

As for "not choosing today" - the offer doesn't expire. Plus, I was baptized as a baby, and I have morals. Why should I choose to believe YOU today, when I can continue investigating without penalty?




And, by the way, since you know so much truth, which flavor of Christianity do you favor?
Tell me, and I'll show you 39,999 other flavors that are incompatible. Like grapefruit and milk. That's how well they "mix."

a reply to: ChesterJohn

You don't like that one?
Sorry, it's the first thing that came to mind when you dissed Critical Thinking as errant.
*eyeroll*

Corinthians was a letter written by Paul - not "God." Paul never even met Jesus.

If God comes to my house and tells me directly, I'll believe. Until then, no.
Hearsay is hearsay. Inadmissible in the hallways, library, and courtroom of my mine. Sorry "God" favored me when doling out reason; don't be jealous.
I accepted what I was given and ran with it.
I know all of your arguments, have done since early childhood.
Then I listened to some other things, and started thinking for myself.

Sounds/reads to me like whoever wrote it doesn't like competition, and is using fearful imagery to keep people from questioning or experiencing anything alternative that may call Christianity's authority to task.

"Obey or...or some really horrible stuffs will happen!"

That's kind of my take on it. If a faith is real, you should be able to put it to the test. It should pass the "sniff test" and be able to to be held up to the light of scrutiny. When belief systems forbid you from doing something, it usually means the people behind these belief systems are afraid you'll see through the deception.

It would be one thing if it was a warning to keep you safe, but it reads like a warning of punishment for going outside the faith.

If it was something like, "Don't eat a bunch of shellfish from the guy on the side of the road, you might get food poisoning and die" -- that's one thing. It's a warning with the purpose of keeping you safe.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I simply said that critical thinking on bible issues has led to corrupt Bibles.

I never said it was errant. However when anything leads you away from faith in God it is not a good thing.

a reply to: MystikMushroom
the point is that Rev 21:8 is not to Christians today. It is to those who live after the millennial kingdom and the establishment of the new heavens and new earth. It is still very far into the future. so it is not about anyone being afraid of competition to Christianity because there wont be any Christianity then.

a reply to: Seede

Pardon the late reply...

Lets see...

I do see some of the difficulty between you and me. You hate some of the letters of the NT and mostly those of Paul. You hate Paul. That is your problem. You refuse to accept that Saul/Paul is loved and revered by Jesus. But you are not alone in this mindset. Most of what I read on ATS is of the same mindset.

Well for one thing I don't hate Paul... Hate is not a part of my being... and how am I to hate a man I never knew?

I don't trust Paul... I believe he had a mission to gain a following like Jesus had, and he got exactly what he wanted by using the name of Jesus in his preaching. I personally believe his whole experience on the road to Damascus was a fabrication so he could gain said following... I also believe he wasn't killed either, he escaped to someplace and likely lived out the rest of his life in secret. We have no records of what happened to him, and the one piece of info we do have came about almost a half a century after his ministry.

No I don't believe He ever talked to Jesus, nor did he ever meet Jesus... IF he did he would have most definitely written about it... and no I don't believe the apostles accepted him as "the 13th apostle" he gave himself that title... 2 peter is one of the controversial books in the NT... it was not written by peter or anyone close to peter... but more then likely a follower of Pauls, which is why said book makes him out to be a loved friend of the apostles.

I also believe John was on to Pauls little plan to mess with the message Jesus gave, and he actually wrote about it in his letters... Though he did it quite candidly... Paul had a lot of influence over people, he was a Pharisee which made him and intimidating force to be reckoned with, plus he was a roman citizen... that combination is very deadly in that time... IF anyone disagreed with him, he had the power to easily have said person eliminated

That is why Revelat6ion 21:8 is not understood by most. That is why I have tried to open the discussion in regards to Revelation 21:8 -- Chester John has tried to reason that faith is the answer and not works but he used Saul/Paul as his source. The Scriptures do teach that you will not enter the kingdom of heaven without faith. It cannot be done with works alone. You can be the best guy in town without the faith in Jesus Christ and you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Well, Revelation has no real importance from my perspective on scripture...

Right off the bat in chapter one it claims to be directly from Jesus... first hint it is not to be believed.

Secondly it reads nothing like Jesus spoke...

Third, it claims Jesus was God.... Jesus didn't consider himself God

Plus it uses the Alpha & Omega terminology... which is a term the OT god uses, and you know my stance on that critter

I will also say that in your view of "heaven" there will only be Christians present, which is not a place I would want to go in any case... this is also a very elitist view of the after life... which I personally believe is nothing but Christian dogma... but a better word would be complete Nonsense

I do believe that one would need some sort of faith that life exists beyond death because belief can become reality... but believing everyone must stick to Christian guidelines is just wrong... IF there is a hell good sir, there are more "Christians" there then anything else... lucky for Christianity Hell is a myth designed to scare people into conversion

Then again you can be an outlaw and thief and die on the tree beside the Christ and with faith alone you could enter the kingdom of heaven. Not only could this happen but it did happen. Now don't ask for proof because we are talking about faith are we not?

Well... I don't agree with this either... obviously we're talking about the thief on the cross beside Jesus...

He regretted his life, and asked the son of God directly to remember him... We don't have that luxury...

There are some "sins" that are not forgivable in this life or the next... blasphemy of the spirit, and there is more to this then meets the eye... I wrote a thread on this subject a few years ago... feel free to take a look

Blasphemy: More then you think it is?

All Chester John has said that Paul taught us is true. But it is only true if one has the faith that it is true. If you do accept that this is not true then by your lack of faith it is not true to you. But by faith it is true to myself and Chester John. Proof does not enter into faith. They are opposites in this understanding.

I have no need to have any faith in Pauls writing... He didn't teach anything that Jesus didn't already cover...

the one exception is his stance on Love, which is amazing... and again, reinforces the fact that the OT god is NOT the Father of Jesus.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

This is 100% contradictory to the OT God... he/she/it can not even relate

a reply to: Akragon

Why did and do you make post in the thread if indeed that REV 22:8 is of no importance to you.

Well, Revelation has no real importance from my perspective on scripture...

Shouldn't you involve yourself in threads that are of importance to you instead of always going to those that are of little importance to you. That is a Trollish behaviour.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I don't like to leave replies unresolved

Plus i've already said Hell, or "the lake of fire" doesn't exist... Its fear based imagery used to scare people into conversion

a reply to: Akragon

what you believe about heaven and hell is irreverent to me because I believe both exist.

I find this interesting, Jesus had more to say about Hell than heaven yet you don't believe in hell. but what I have come to expect is you will probably go to the greek or hebrew to change the word and its meaning, then claim it is just myths brought over from other beliefs and therefore the Christians views on it are in error and they brought it into the Bible so it too is error.

See people who pick and choose what they believe about what the bible says really don't believe any of it, not even love.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Well I believe both exist in a way... the hell you believe in came from Dante

The hell that Jesus spoke of isn't that... It was an actual place outside the walls of Jerusalem, which is where he got the imagery of "eternal burning"... it was basically a garbage dumb where people that couldn't afford a proper burial were tossed... they used sulphur to destroy what was tossed into "gehenna", and its said the area burned day and night.

Heaven is "the afterlife" which we know nothing about... and I believe it can become "Hellish" when an individual passes...

We don't know what exactly Jesus meant when he talked about "hell"... it was meant to be allegorical

See people who pick and choose what they believe about what the bible says really don't believe any of it, not even love

that is one Hell of an assumption, based on absolutely nothing...

Similar to me saying those who believe the entire bible is Gods word are actually insane...

a reply to: ChesterJohn

See people who pick and choose what they believe about what the bible says really don't believe any of it, not even love.

This is a highly aggressive thing to say.

The "Bible" is not clear. It is a compilation of ideas and suggestions.......
What YOU think it says is not "relevant" (although you said to Akragon it was "irreverant").


I have a few questions for you.....

Why do you personally think that you personally know what the contradictory, obscure, enigmatic things recorded in "The Bible" are supposed to mean?

How do you justify that YOUR interpretation is accurate above all others?

And, as I asked you before, which denomination is it you favor?

Are you just a rogue believer who interprets things however he wishes at any given moment?


And lastly: anyone can post in this forum (which is titled "Religion, Faith, and Theology").

There is NOT a "Christians only" forum on this website.
If you bring up christian ideology, everyone else is free to discuss that ideology.

Perhaps someday (if you're not too paralyzed with fear) you can look into other ideas about the Divine, the afterlife, the ideologies of others (that are just as prominent as yours, if not as widely publicized).

Why are you here? Are you trying to "save" people's souls? Or just convince yourself that what you think is true?

Because - you don't know what is true.
NONE of us do. That's why we come to discuss things.

a reply to: ChesterJohn
Just reviewing the thread........

The Point is that GOD preserved his words into one English version, not man in a plethora of versions.

Whu....WHY would a "perfect God" do that? The "English" version?

Yeah, that one was translated during the reign of King James, whose son (Charles) was an important player in the English Civil War. You know who Oliver Cromwell was? King James was he who allowed the Latin Bible (which no one except PRIESTS could read) to be translated into "English" thereby (because the commoners were refused full education)
allowing the "vulgate" (the commoners) to read it for themselves.

wiki about the history of the King James Version

As soon as that happened, all HELL broke loose.
(Plus, his 'translating staff' are not without notoriety.)

So don't go harping on how the KJV is the perfect one. It's no more special than any other version.

See, we don't have the "originals" to which to compare anything later. I think it's funny that you're mocking the possibility that Akra will produce some Greek or Hebrew version, as though they would somehow support your position.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Whu....WHY would a "perfect God" do that? The "English" version?

Because he promised too preserve his words from the time of King David for ever.

Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Actually is was not aggressive at all it was an observation of his post where he chose to believe one thing and deny another. In essence that is picking and choosing.

a reply to: Akragon

Didn't I predict you would say it came from another source and deny the Bible. Dante was many many years later and his stuff was based on Greek mythology version of Hades.

I didn't need to assume anything I simply took you at your words and believed it to be true.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Not sure what you're talking about...

You see its only Christianity that believes the bible is one book, anyone who has actually studied it knows its a compilation of books. Why should we not analyze what is true and what is not, as opposed to just believing everything is truth within the book... especially when we know some things are not

Personally, truth lies within the gospels... the rest comes secondary...

And that does not mean every word in the gospels are truth either