Transgender woman Vicky Thompson, 21, found dead in all male prison.

originally posted by: Bennyzilla

Somebody get this guy a medal

It's even worse you're aware not everyone is in that group and still choose to throw everyone in it.

Oh really smart guy?? Why don't you point out where I did that then??

Because I know that I can quote you doing it.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: Krazysh0t

The DSM implies it is a treatable condition. There is no consensus about treatment though. Having that person dress as the identified gender is only one proposed treatment. I see it worked very well for the subject of the OP. The assumption is that if this guy had been allowed to indulge his fantasies he would not have killed himself yet we see instances of transsexuals who do just that yet still it doesn't work. My point really is you are trying to wax scientific about an issue which has very little scientific basis or consensus among the scientist actually studying it. In other words the science is still out despite your claims to the contrary.

Alright so let's look at the suicide rates of transgenders. Let's compare the ones who don't change their gender versus the ones who do. Since I've presented tons of evidence for my side of the argument and you are arguing that changing your gender may not be the proper course of action to treat gender dysphoria, I assume you will be more than willing to find that evidence for me right?

a reply to: mOjOm

Fair enough, I reread your post and it indeed does not lump all.

originally posted by: mOjOm
Except most people here aren't asking questions or discussing anything of relevance. They're just slinging sh1t.

^^^ THIS!

originally posted by: Debunkology
The irony of this post is phenomenal. The ones using the opportunity to spout off their rhetoric and unscientific nonsense is those that are part of the LGBT community and 'progressive movement'!

The tactics of accusing rational people as being fearful or trying to stifle debate is also a tired method. Sorry.

Irony indeed! So what is the opposite of the "progressive movement" The regressive movement? Sometimes it sure seems like things are moving backwards or stuck at some fixed point in time.

I'm not here to stifle debate or engage in partisan politics. Awareness and understanding of some of the issues and problems faced by many transgender people is something that should be discussed and that's why I'm here but it becomes difficult when faced with so many that are less than receptive to bringing an open mind to the table or worse, those with preconceived notions and unwavering points of view.

I'm not calling anyone a hater, a bigot or ignorant. It is okay if you don't like trans* people but it is kind of hard to really have an informative conversation when the deck seems so stacked against them and anyone that is supportive or understanding gets labeled as some progressive monster or LGBT activist.

I realize this subject stirs strong emotion in people and some see the "in your face" mention of it as a political wedge or part of some divisive strategy. All I'd like to see is that all persons be treated with dignity and respect and maybe a little bit of humanity and compassion toward people that aren't like themselves. That should be neither left or right, liberal or conservative.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

First you have to admit that you have improperly implied that you have supplied "tons" of studies. Ive seen 2 or 3 and each one were very small sample sizes and are not conclusive enough to be definitive but instead warrant further study. You are trying to dictate the terms of the discussion by repeatedly presenting studies in a biased way and as being conclusive.

What should be determined is that there is no scientific consensus and that study is incomplete. Which leaves us with the rhetorical arguments.

My evidence is the OP subject. This person was even allowed to wear female clothing in the all male prison. Short of changing the perceptions of everyone around the subject everything was done to allow them to live out their delusion while incarcerated other than allowing the inmate to dictate where they will stay.

This conversation always ends up with moving goal post. The topic was the OP and whether they were somehow victimized leading to them taking their own life. Instead you are vainly searching for any justification for why everyone else has to conform or reinforce another persons delusion or they are victimizing them.

a reply to: NihilistSanta

Alright then we are done here then. I thought we were going to have an intellectual discussion on the scientific evidence behind transgenderism, but I guess that isn't going to be the case.

I've posted this link in other threads but will do so again to make it handy for those interested in peer-reviewed research on this subject.

Peer reviewed papers

And more:

Hormone exposure before and around birth can influence the sexual differentiation of the brain, including gender identity

And even a few more:

Genetic factors can influence the sexual differentiation of the brain

Why does it even matter?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Debunkology

Cool. That's awesome. I see you still have supplied no links backing anything you are saying up so there's that. Oh I've also moved on from this conversation. If you want to keep up, now you need to start debunking my brain scan studies that confirm what I'm talking about.

Wow. Looks like to me and maybe everyone else that you’re moving on from the conversation because “you’re getting your ass handed to you” so to speak.

How exactly is your argument “backed up” when all you did was provide definitions of gender? Riddle me that?

How exactly is your argument “backed up” by providing brain scans of people who suffer from gender-dysphoria?

Tell me. How exactly is this person “Vicky Thompson” Female?

originally posted by: Freija
Why does it even matter?

"Why" indeed? I expect your evidence to be met with just as much rationalizations as mine was. I still have someone talking to me who thinks I should consider his opinion and only his opinion to actually carry weight around here. Like I'm actually interested in arguing in circles about someone's opinion. HA! I care about evidence backing your opinion up not just your opinion. My guess is that your links and evidence will just be countered with words and opinions, just like mine.

a reply to: Debunkology

Tell me how exactly YOUR words are anything but an opinion without anything backing your words up?

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Yeah, but what more can you do? If people want to turn a blind eye to science and medicine, I can't help that.

Even first-person narratives from transgender people themselves don't help and are addressed with the same kind of fervor. There's several of those here elsewhere on ATS as evidence but they don't matter either.

a reply to: Revolution9

The headline should be, "man who thinks hes a woman"

a reply to: Freija

It's seriously frustrating. I post science and studies backing up what I'm saying, but somehow all that is trumped by just saying that science says otherwise... Modern science AGREES with gender dysporia AND it agrees that the best treatment is to let the person change their gender. THUS modern science has altered its definition of gender (because that is what science does when it recognizes that it was wrong) to account for this.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: Krazysh0t
What should be determined is that there is no scientific consensus and that study is incomplete. Which leaves us with the rhetorical arguments.

Why do you think there is no consensus? There is. WPATH and the standards of care are all based on the consensus reached by evidence. It is what ALL medical professionals are supposed to follow and what most actually do. Saying there is no medical or scientific consensus on transgender topics is like saying there is no consensus on climate change just because some oil companies were able to give conservative reasonable doubt. There IS a scientific consensus.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

That isn't the topic. Also the whole scientific basis argument isn't going to work in your favor. All science can do is present evidence. It is people like you who are making false conclusions based on limited evidence. The only thing to be gained from the scientific basis is that there is a difference at the neurological level. All that does is reinforce the idea that it is a defect or anomaly and could be "fixed" prenatally or through other biological methods similar to how they view schizophrenia. It doesn't conclude that society has to pander to their delusions. I don't see science saying that we have to accept the ravings of schizophrenics so why is this issue different?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Debunkology

Tell me how exactly YOUR words are anything but an opinion without anything backing your words up?

The fact the guy has a pair of testicles and a penis, external sexual organs indicating that the person was male is not my opinion.
The fact the guy was born a male is not my opinion.
The fact the guys legal status was male is not my opinion.
The fact the other inmates made fun of him for wearing womens clothes because they identified him as male is not my opinion.


Unlike you, I deal with FACTS and REALITY.

a reply to: Freija

Great so in other words its not normal. It can be affected by the environment which is even worse as a premise for your argument. That doesn't mean society has to change to deal with environmental pollutants it means science has to come up with a means of counteracting it. I hear all the time "but who would choose to live this way?!?" well maybe one day no one will since you guys expect science is on the case I am sure they will create a cure. Unless you don't want a cure and instead are just seeking to impose your views on others? Which is it?

I wouldn't really use the words "found dead" it isn't exactly a mystery "suicides in prison" would be more fitting, simply because this man had already planned his suicide and tried to use it as leverage to get his way, that alone shows certain degree of mental illness.

almost half of his sentence would be shaved off + good behavior and he could have been out in 6 months if not less, a very short amount of time.

Modern times are allowing/making it easier for people to live in fantasies made in their minds, where do we draw the line and say "enough, you are mentally ill and need help" instead of encouraging every twisted fantasy someone is going to come up with?.

I wouldn't be surprised if the next decade or two the new trend will be "I identify as an animal" are we going to encourage that too? when your 6 year old decides they want to be a cat, are you going to tell them "that is silly you can't be a cat" or are you going to encourage it and say "oh honey you can be whatever you wanna be", sounds silly? just as silly as a 6 year old boy deciding he is a "girl" and his parents simply agree telling him "you can be what you want", rather than doing some actual parenting and not just blindly agreeing with every fantasy kids come up with.

a reply to: Vamana

Made me think of this clip. (warning language)

originally posted by: Freija
I'm not here to stifle debate or engage in partisan politics. Awareness and understanding of some of the issues and problems faced by many transgender people is something that should be discussed and that's why I'm here but it becomes difficult when faced with so many that are less than receptive to bringing an open mind to the table or worse, those with preconceived notions and unwavering points of view.

I'm not calling anyone a hater, a bigot or ignorant. It is okay if you don't like trans* people but it is kind of hard to really have an informative conversation when the deck seems so stacked against them and anyone that is supportive or understanding gets labeled as some progressive monster or LGBT activist.

I realize this subject stirs strong emotion in people and some see the "in your face" mention of it as a political wedge or part of some divisive strategy. All I'd like to see is that all persons be treated with dignity and respect and maybe a little bit of humanity and compassion toward people that aren't like themselves. That should be neither left or right, liberal or conservative.

It seems most people’s concerns here was that that this person would suffer violence and rape.

However, this is the exact thing that ordinary straight males suffer from. Do we send vulnerable straight men to male prisons because they are naturally weaker than the other males? Because there will be far more of them in numbers. Or do we send gay men to male prisons because they are naturally more vulnerable to violence? Of course we do. Because if you are legally a male in the UK, you are sent to a male prison.

Men commit suicide in male prisons at a rate of around 85 per year in the UK.

Like I said. The bigger issue it seems here is that the violence and rape that occurs in prison should be eliminated rather than anything else. If we solve that problem, then by rights, there is no problem.