I can no longer believe or trust anyone with a faith in any relgion.

a reply to: nonspecific

That is how I see religion now and although I wish it was not so I cannot change the fact.

That's a shame because there are many wonderful things around us because of religions.

All the many wonderous works of art, literature, beautiful cathedrals and other architecture.... not to mention all those glorious extra days off of work (thanks christians !).




As a lifetime atheist, I stand in awe and appreciation of these great things given to humanity.

Life. It's about learning to take the good with the bad... and learning to separate the two.

originally posted by: RealTruthSeeker

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: RealTruthSeeker

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: RealTruthSeeker
And why should we trust any of the views that you hold? I've seen alot of sterotypes, but this is ridiculous. Are you saying you wouldn't let a doctor heal you because he believes in some form of God? There are millions of trustworthy people on the planet, some with religious views some without. What, are you going ask every person if they believe in some form of religion first before you have a conversation with them?

Consider this: 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. What's wrong with that kind of religion?

I do not ask you to trust anything I say, I am simply asking a question and looking for answers.

Yes there are millions of trustworthy people on the planet but if they also choose to believe in something that I can see no factual evidence for then that causes my concern and that is why this thread is here.

I do not understand the last part of your post sorry.

But the OP does not ask any questions. All you have stated is that you don't trust anyone who believes in a religion. I don't see one question in your OP. I assume your atheist, maybe I'm wrong, in either case atheism is also a religion (No need to get into a convo about that I'm just saying), so in reality you can't even trust yourself.

There were no direct questions in the OP but I hoped that it could be seen that I was not making a direct statement but looking to discuss my thoughts on this quite serious matter.

I do not know if I am an athiest either, I simply no longer trust anyone that bases there life on a structured religion and wished to find out more about my feelings.

So what do you expect to get out of this then? If you don't trust anything from someone who is religious how do you expect to find out more about your feeling when most of the people replying to this thread follow some kind of religion. I'm don't get it.

I was looking for a little more understanding as to my viewpoint. It's not one that I am overly happy with and was something I ws hoping to gain some insight into.

Maybe someone else had the same thoughts or feelings? Maybe someone would say something that could maybe see things a little differently.

Maybe someone would give me reason to think my opinion was right.

Until you ask you do not know.

originally posted by: CranialSponge
a reply to: nonspecific

That is how I see religion now and although I wish it was not so I cannot change the fact.

That's a shame because there are many wonderful things around us because of religions.

All the many wonderous works of art, literature, beautiful cathedrals and other architecture.... not to mention all those glorious extra days off of work (thanks christians !).

As a lifetime atheist, I stand in awe and appreciation of these great things given to humanity.

Life. It's about learning to take the good with the bad... and learning to separate the two.

Are there really so many good things about organised religion though?

You mention architecture, how many people suffered and had nothing so the organised religions of the world could have really pretty buildings bought with tithes, You could go to Italy and look at the wonderfull churches they have and the hovels the local "christians" live in.

As to extra days off I get none in general, I have occasionally got christmas day off over the years but other than that I fail to see how that is a good offset for all the oppresion and wars and abuse.

Again simply my opinion.

a reply to: nonspecific

The building of those cathedrals also employed thousands upon thousands of plebeians. Again, the good with the bad.

Also keep in mind there has ALWAYS been a separation of the peoples - rich vs poor. It's only in recent modern history that any of us have enjoyed life somewhere in the middle (middle class).

Religion didn't bring that division about... the human ego did.

originally posted by: CranialSponge
a reply to: nonspecific

The building of those cathedrals also employed thousands upon thousands of plebeians. Again, the good with the bad.

Also keep in mind there has ALWAYS been a separation of the peoples - rich vs poor. It's only in recent modern history that any of us have enjoyed life somewhere in the middle (middle class).

Religion didn't bring that division about... the human ego did.

Religion certainly helped with the division of class, organised religion was founded on human ego and division.

I would disagree that the notion of the building of churces was in any way benificial to the peasants of the day but any info to support that would be interesting.

This is actually one of the more interesting behavioral phenomena that I am familiar with.

The second I mention "God," it seems like the typical atheist (just from my experience) does the same behavior. You certainly have plenty of company nonspecific! I tend to use it to intentionally move on from discussions that are intellectually boring, or a waste of time. It allows the other to walk away with a sense of superiority, and I get left alone. Win-Win

You wish to explore this, and I believe you on that. However, judging by the content of your OP, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume you are only interested in discussing the matter with other atheists.

Now, I'll admit I didn't read through the whole thread because these topics tend to be repeated verbatim over and over again (from both "sides").

All that said, I find myself with a similar habit. Mine applies to those who claim adherence to scientific processes and conclusions, but have only experienced it through Google. It doesn't mean that the individual's perspective is of less value, inherently, but that does seem to be where my mind takes it.

It's something I am working on, but I find myself constantly reinforcing my bias through interactions with others. Despite that though, I am constantly trying to prove my assertion incorrect. Have you tried the same?

a reply to: nonspecific

My wife tell the story of her grandfather who
own real estate and would not rent to anyone
who made a big deal out of being a "Christian."

He said they were not to be trusted.

Perhaps there is no god, and everything you see hear and experience is based on frequency perception. It's not real, and it's not solid apart from what your brain perceives it to be.

a reply to: nonspecific

Like it or not, we can't point the finger and blame all of the ills of the world on religion.

People are to blame.

We need to stop looking for scapegoats and to put the blame where it bloody well deserves to be... on ourselves.



Don't like the path our governments and leaders are taking us ?
Then why the hell aren't we all rallying together and burning it all to the ground ?

I'll tell you why - because a large portion of us can't be bothered, or don't give a damn, or feel too insignificant, or actually believe the propaganda, or thrive on warmongering, etc etc.

The human animal is not a pretty sight, the sooner we can accept that truth, the sooner we can step up to the plate and take responsibility for our inactions.

Stop trying to pass the buck.

originally posted by: CranialSponge
a reply to: nonspecific

Like it or not, we can't point the finger and blame all of the ills of the world on religion.

People are to blame.

We need to stop looking for scapegoats and to put the blame where it bloody well deserves to be... on ourselves.



Don't like the path our governments and leaders are taking us ?
Then why the hell aren't we all rallying together and burning it all to the ground ?

I'll tell you why - because a large portion of us can't be bothered, or don't give a damn, or feel too insignificant, or actually believe the propaganda, or thrive on warmongering, etc etc.

The human animal is not a pretty sight, the sooner we can accept that truth, the sooner we can step up to the plate and take responsibility for our inactions.

Stop trying to pass the buck.

I never intended to point the finger of blame purely at organised religion.

I simply said in my Op that I have issues with trusting someone that puts there faith in it. Religion has caused many of the worlds problems but certainly not all of them.

As I said before I simply no longer have the ability to take someone who is involved in organised religion in the same way because of the failings in the logic that are needed to comply with it.

a reply to: nonspecific

As I said before I simply no longer have the ability to take someone who is involved in organised religion in the same way because of the failings in the logic that are needed to comply with it.

I understand what you're saying, believe me I do.

But it's unfortunate that you're choosing to see it that way. Because if you think logically about it for a minute, it makes absolutely no sense to lump an entire population of peoples into one single pigeon hole.

The human animal is far too complex to be able to do such a thing.

You need to merit (or demerit) each individual on an individual basis.

That's all I'm saying.

a reply to: nonspecific

The issue that I have is that the two do not sit together in my mind and it troubles me more and more.

Does this help to explain my stance on this?

Yes it does. And here is why. I made an attempt to accent a conundrum you presented to which you attempted to clarify by basically repeating and expanding upon your original statement while, understandably so, holding your own reasoning in high regard.
While I agree with the issues raised about the flawed belief systems of religions and the unreasonableness of those beliefs, I detect a certain level unreasonableness to them in your own reasoning.
As you state

The issue that I have is that the two do not sit together in my mind and it troubles me more and more.

Here you state you are troubled over this. Might it be that somewhere within your own reasoning, you sense that you might be overdoing it? Might you slowly be developing a phobia around this issue?

From my experience when we, I say we instead of I because I still hold out hope that I am not entirely alone in my own pursuit of perfection, seek to build and develop ourselves on our own un-flawed logic and reason we can easily begin seeing the flaws in other peoples understandings. This has happened to me numerous times in my life and only when I go back and find the flaws within my own system of belief, have I been able to reconcile these "troubles" that you mention.

And interestingly enough though having arrived at this position through my own reasoning, I find it is in concert with the whole religious 'mote in ones eye' bit that unfortunately does not seem to be held to much by modern religious believers.

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: nonspecific

The issue that I have is that the two do not sit together in my mind and it troubles me more and more.

Does this help to explain my stance on this?

Yes it does. And here is why. I made an attempt to accent a conundrum you presented to which you attempted to clarify by basically repeating and expanding upon your original statement while, understandably so, holding your own reasoning in high regard.
While I agree with the issues raised about the flawed belief systems of religions and the unreasonableness of those beliefs, I detect a certain level unreasonableness to them in your own reasoning.
As you state

The issue that I have is that the two do not sit together in my mind and it troubles me more and more.

Here you state you are troubled over this. Might it be that somewhere within your own reasoning, you sense that you might be overdoing it? Might you slowly be developing a phobia around this issue?

From my experience when we, I say we instead of I because I still hold out hope that I am not entirely alone in my own pursuit of perfection, seek to build and develop ourselves on our own un-flawed logic and reason we can easily begin seeing the flaws in other peoples understandings. This has happened to me numerous times in my life and only when I go back and find the flaws within my own system of belief, have I been able to reconcile these "troubles" that you mention.

And interestingly enough though having arrived at this position through my own reasoning, I find it is in concert with the whole religious 'mote in ones eye' bit that unfortunately does not seem to be held to much by modern religious believers.

I think there may be some truth in what you say, I imagine I am at something of a crossroads as to this question hence my need to discuss it.

I am going to say this exactly as I see it now in an attempt to understand my own opinion on this.

How can someone look at a religious text written many hundreds of years ago and altered over the years to benifit organised religion actually look at it, read it and then base there life in a modern world on it?

How does someone read(for example) the old testament, and then apply that to modern day life and incorperate the teachings of it into there modern Iphone/taxicab/internet life?

I am not attacking it I assure you I just cannot for the life of me figure out how someone can link the two together?

Faith I get but continuing to adhere to a fictional at best book written in a long dead world is beyond my ability to understand.

I understand that I have simply restated my OP here but I honestly and truthfully cannot fathom how millions if not billions of people still adhere to this.

I was speaking with a Muslim friend the other day and someone asked about ramadan. He said that god was all, how do you explain the winds. how do you explain the tides, how do you explain the sun rising in the morning and giving life to the world unless it was the work of a god.

I understand how that's reasonable a few thousand years ago but this guy actually still thinks this now, this is very very basic stuff here yet he still attributes it to "god" and this guy can drive a car, vote and procreate.

I know this may sound overly harsh but it really and honestly baffles me.

I have found it valid to approach people with no preconceived notions other than suspecting they likely eat and poop... though it is surprisingly hard to do at first. We are walking wads of prejudice.

I was raised as an atheist (or perhaps agnostic - atheist) and count my imaginary blessings every day for that... but then I was confronted with the phenomena of spirits, and it made me cogitate pretty extensively.

I've come to the conclusion that we know very little about anything, most especially this question of death and non embodied intelligence.

I bet there are wispy 'higher' powers out there... I know there seem to be equal to lesser powers flitting about with no body, so why not some more intelligent, capable ones? And perhaps there is even a prime mover as well... but I'll be darned if anyone has a clear idea of what that means to anyone other than themselves.

It IS a safe bet that religious folks are fooling themselves at some level... not that they are wrong, necessarily, just that they cannot honestly know... and some would posit that it is a main point of this 'realm' we're in... uncertainty.

But maybe you could hone it to dogmatic beliefs being suspect? But then, that's my personal belief system, heh.

And 'their' is possessive! If I were a grammar worshiper I'd find that usage suspect there, in your OP! It's all relative, nonspecific... it's all relative ; ]

originally posted by: Baddogma
I have found it valid to approach people with no preconceived notions other than suspecting they likely eat and poop... though it is surprisingly hard to do at first. We are walking wads of prejudice.

I was raised as an atheist (or perhaps agnostic - atheist) and count my imaginary blessings every day for that... but then I was confronted with the phenomena of spirits, and it made me cogitate pretty extensively.

I've come to the conclusion that we know very little about anything, most especially this question of death and non embodied intelligence.

I bet there are wispy 'higher' powers out there... I know there seem to be equal to lesser powers flitting about with no body, so why not some more intelligent, capable ones? And perhaps there is even a prime mover as well... but I'll be darned if anyone has a clear idea of what that means to anyone other than themselves.

It IS a safe bet that religious folks are fooling themselves at some level... not that they are wrong, necessarily, just that they cannot honestly know... and some would posit that it is a main point of this 'realm' we're in... uncertainty.

But maybe you could hone it to dogmatic beliefs being suspect? But then, that's my personal belief system, heh.

And 'their' is possessive! If I were a grammar worshiper I'd find that usage suspect there, in your OP! It's all relative, nonspecific... it's all relative ; ]

My spelling and grammer is appaling I am afraid, I had a nasty head injury some years ago and cannot for the life of me remember how to spell, I am pretty sure I used to be much betterer at it but thats life.

a reply to: nonspecific

Well, that grammar remark was the least important bit... I stink at grammar, too, and don't have a head injury to blame, I'm afraid.

I will say that your logic centers seem fine!

I guess I can summarize by saying I, too, used to think all religious folks were seriously insane... now that's mellowed to "most" instead of "all" ; ]

Religious folks know exactly as much as we all do about the big questions... which is:

nothing for sure.

originally posted by: Baddogma
a reply to: nonspecific

Well, that grammar remark was the least important bit... I stink at grammar, too, and don't have a head injury to blame, I'm afraid.

I will say that your logic centers seem fine!

I guess I can summarize by saying I, too, used to think all religious folks were seriously insane... now that's mellowed to "most" instead of all ; ]

And just knowing they know exactly as much we all do about the big questions... which is:

we know nothing for sure.

I do not think anyone with religious beliefs are insane or even wrong.

As I said earlier I really cannot for the life of me understand how they do it and have been trying to understand for some time now.

a reply to: nonspecific

I understand that I have simply restated my OP here but I honestly and truthfully cannot fathom how millions if not billions of people still adhere to this.

Non

If you ask me, the hardest thing to do in life is to attempt to be, or develop, individuality. I guess that many people think it is an automatic proceedure or that all they have to do is wear their hats in a different fashion. We are from birth, organized as cogent beings enmeshed in a web of social and moral pesrspective. For many, developing within these established norms and being successful is enough to make them happy. For others, like me and I suppose you, developing our own way of being takes prominence.

I know that there are things I have believed yet no longer do. I look back on those things and go WTF was I thinking. My answer is always, I was thinking the best I could at the time in accord with my upbringing, my family, school, friends etc. I do not condemn my previous self nor those others who still hold to whatever engrained beliefs they were trained in.

Should I quit driving for fear that a religious person who lives by an entirely irrational belief system will drive down the wrong side of the road. Or eating in restaurants because a religious person is washing the dishes and who knows what kind of problems might arise because he is using the wrong soap

From listening to you I feel that you are attempting to order yourself. To build within yourself and then out from yourself an edifice of reason. Neat. I have attempted this in my own life and found my fruits to be wanting and only by allowing for my own faults have I managed to live among other people instead of off in my own secluded ivory tower with it's spectacular views of truth from every parapet. Especially the view of the mote and drawn up tight draw bridge.

In short??? Get over yourself.

a reply to: nonspecific

Many years ago I was convinced that the Mayan calender and 2012 was the truth and I recall my friends would hang there heads in shame whenever I brought it up.

Did this affect how well you practised your trade/skill/hobbies?

a reply to: TerryMcGuire

It's good you brought some of that up!

I feel that the moment I truly started to 'mature,' was when I started to focus on my own areas of incomprehension almost exclusively rather than what I perceived to be the errors of others.