I can no longer believe or trust anyone with a faith in any relgion.

a reply to: nonspecific

There is no reason to distrust them all-but I understand where you are coming from.

Sure many have unsound reasoning and retrospective logic, but there are a few that are genuinely good people that adhere to the good book and those folk are the loveliest people you can ever meet.

As for the rest of the mooching televangelists-they should be held accountable. I'm not a religious man and I don't agree with the teachings I was raised to believe, but I do believe that there are schemers that are exploiting peoples faith to make money and that is wrong.

I've said it before-There is nothing wrong with showing ones faith, but there is something wrong with exploiting ones faith.

We all ought to try and be Humanists.

Being a Humanist means trying to behave decently without expectation of rewards or punishment after you are dead.

a reply to: nonspecific

I guarantee you that 90% of the people you cross paths with throughout your life, you haven't the foggiest clue whether or not they believe in a higher power.

And you have conversations with them, you laugh, you cry, you learn things from them... and you have no idea what their spiritual beliefs are because the subject never comes up.

That favourite teacher of yours in school who taught you so much about life in general ? Most likely a follower of one of the Abrahamic religions. People you've held conversations with that awed you with their brilliance ? Most likely a follower of one of the Abrahamic religions.

So on the subject of rational thinking (as you put it), is it logical and rational for you to assume that anyone and everyone who holds some sort of spiritual faith falls into this pigeon hole of yours that you've created in your own mind ? And you do realize that this pigeon hole is one of your own making, right ?

Is it logical and rational to lump 90+% of the world's population (the estimated number of believers) into that imaginary pigeon hole ?

I should hope that a rational person such as yourself would see their own error in this way of thinking.

Yes no ?

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: nonspecific
Well yeah. I get this. However, you indicate that you hold with well founded and unflawed reasoning in this sentence.

This makes me a little sad because so many brilliant people with amazing insight, knowledge and expertise leave me distrusting of them due to a completely unfounded and flawed(in my opinion) reasoning.

Ok. I get this too. But you then go on to say in the very next sentence

It has got to the point that I feel that if I ever needed a life saving operation then I could not trust a surgeon who was a follower of a religion.

How do you hold with the apparent LACK of unfounded and clearly flawed reasoning here?

A very good point if I understand it correctly and kind of the reason that I asked the questions.

So theres a man(or woman) that can save your life with there understanding of medicene and there reputation and expertise. This is good and you can talk to them and see evidence of there success.

You then discover that they base there life choices on a book that was apparently written 2000 years ago in a country that no longer really exists and has no real relavance to the modern world and is full of wild speculation, miricales and contradictory statements.

The issue that I have is that the two do not sit together in my mind and it troubles me more and more.

Does this help to explain my stance on this?

And why should we trust any of the views that you hold? I've seen alot of sterotypes, but this is ridiculous. Are you saying you wouldn't let a doctor heal you because he believes in some form of God? There are millions of trustworthy people on the planet, some with religious views some without. What, are you going ask every person if they believe in some form of religion first before you have a conversation with them?

Consider this: 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. What's wrong with that kind of religion?

originally posted by: CranialSponge
a reply to: nonspecific

I guarantee you that 90% of the people you cross paths with throughout your life, you haven't the foggiest clue whether or not they believe in a higher power.

And you have conversations with them, you laugh, you cry, you learn things from them... and you have no idea what their spiritual beliefs are because the subject never comes up.

That favourite teacher of yours in school who taught you so much about life in general ? Most likely a follower of one of the Abrahamic religions. People you've held conversations with that awed you with their brilliance ? Most likely a follower of one of the Abrahamic religions.

So on the subject of rational thinking (as you put it), is it logical and rational for you to assume that anyone and everyone who holds some sort of spiritual faith falls into this pigeon hole of yours that you've created in your own mind ? And you do realize that this pigeon hole is one of your own making, right ?

Is it logical and rational to lump 90+% of the world's population (the estimated number of believers) into that imaginary pigeon hole ?

I should hope that a rational person such as yourself would see their own error in this way of thinking.

Yes no ?

Hence the OP, as I said I did not just make this up to fill a gap here, it really bothers me.

I used to be able to just let it go but now it's different. It confuses me with the dissonance between such contradictory beliefs.

originally posted by: RealTruthSeeker
And why should we trust any of the views that you hold? I've seen alot of sterotypes, but this is ridiculous. Are you saying you wouldn't let a doctor heal you because he believes in some form of God? There are millions of trustworthy people on the planet, some with religious views some without. What, are you going ask every person if they believe in some form of religion first before you have a conversation with them?

Consider this: 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. What's wrong with that kind of religion?

I do not ask you to trust anything I say, I am simply asking a question and looking for answers.

Yes there are millions of trustworthy people on the planet but if they also choose to believe in something that I can see no factual evidence for then that causes my concern and that is why this thread is here.

I do not understand the last part of your post sorry.

originally posted by: nonspecific
Yes your right you did use a couple of words to make an escape route as regards your opinions on my mental state but I was not prepeared to let that go un noticed.

Oh, good god (no pun intended)...maybe I used those not as an escape route, but as actual words that meant what they say. But let's quit beating this dead horse--if you want to think that I consider you clinically paranoid, well...you're free to be paranoid about that

But shouldn't you trust me? I'm an atheist!

As I kind of said earlier how would you feel if a mechanic was fixing your brakes whilst talking about evil reptillian overlords and the NWO ruling the masses from the dark side of the moon?

I think you would be a little concerned as to there ability to do the job right?

I see a religious surgeon in the same light.

Well, regardless of the fact that I work on my own car, no, I wouldn't be, because you can be an expert in one field--say, surgery, or auto mechanics--and still sincerely believe that tiny gnomes steal your underwear from time to time in order to sacrifice them to their evil unicorn landlords as to not be evicted from the forest. I don't care, as long as you have some documentation that you know what you're doing and that you have a good tract record of doing your job correctly.

So what you're possibly implying is that, even if only two brain surgeons were available--one with an impeccable tract record of removing tumors (but was deeply religious), and the other just completed his/her residency, but was hardcore atheist--you'd pick the atheist?

I sure as hell would hope not, because where is the logic and reason in that?

My point being, it's not always about religious belief systems that dictate trustworthiness...I choose to look at the person and their actions, not just stereotype them because of a religious belief and then discriminate against them because of it.

a reply to: nonspecific

I think most religious people are driven by fear and desire.

However, I find that some people are not. Just because someone is part of an organized religion does not automatically make them a ..

Some are well grounded and reasonable people.

I understand what you are saying and what is bothering you nonspecific, you are being quite specific.

Just imagine all the other crappola people think about and believe in and you don't have a clue about it. There is probably no end of things you might find repulsive or unable to correlate with their knowledge in one area and then their lack of critical thinking in another and what you consider rational thinking. It might not jive.

And so it goes.

a reply to: nonspecific

I used to be able to just let it go but now it's different. It confuses me with the dissonance between such contradictory beliefs.

Perhaps it's concerning and confusing to you because, for whatever reason, you're unable to realize that people are more than capable of separating the two things ?

They're more than capable of following science AND holding a belief in a higher power without allowing the two to cross paths and contradict each other.

Me thinks you're not giving the human brain enough credit here, my friend.

Either that, or you're hanging out on ATS too much and have started to take the soapbox-standing American Christians (those loudmouthed minority ones that stick out like a sore thumb) as a sweeping representation of all believers... which, logically speaking, would obviously be a wrong way of seeing things.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

originally posted by: nonspecific
Yes your right you did use a couple of words to make an escape route as regards your opinions on my mental state but I was not prepeared to let that go un noticed.

Oh, good god (no pun intended)...maybe I used those not as an escape route, but as actual words that meant what they say. But let's quit beating this dead horse--if you want to think that I consider you clinically paranoid, well...you're free to be paranoid about that

But shouldn't you trust me? I'm an atheist!

As I kind of said earlier how would you feel if a mechanic was fixing your brakes whilst talking about evil reptillian overlords and the NWO ruling the masses from the dark side of the moon?

I think you would be a little concerned as to there ability to do the job right?

I see a religious surgeon in the same light.

Well, regardless of the fact that I work on my own car, no, I wouldn't be, because you can be an expert in one field--say, surgery, or auto mechanics--and still sincerely believe that tiny gnomes steal your underwear from time to time in order to sacrifice them to their evil unicorn landlords as to not be evicted from the forest. I don't care, as long as you have some documentation that you know what you're doing and that you have a good tract record of doing your job correctly.

So what you're possibly implying is that, even if only two brain surgeons were available--one with an impeccable tract record of removing tumors (but was deeply religious), and the other just completed his/her residency, but was hardcore atheist--you'd pick the atheist?

I sure as hell would hope not, because where is the logic and reason in that?

My point being, it's not always about religious belief systems that dictate trustworthiness...I choose to look at the person and their actions, not just stereotype them because of a religious belief and then discriminate against them because of it.

So if we leave the first bit where it was and move forwards.

I do not think it's stereotyping because of religion.

I just feel that I cannot trust the judgement of someone who puts there faith in something so unfounded and (very much in simply my own opinion) ludicrous.

This I will state again is not an insult to anyone but how I see it.

I feel a dead horse may be bieng flogged here so I thank you for your efforts, maybe a year ago I could have seen diffently but I feel it has gone too far now.

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: RealTruthSeeker
And why should we trust any of the views that you hold? I've seen alot of sterotypes, but this is ridiculous. Are you saying you wouldn't let a doctor heal you because he believes in some form of God? There are millions of trustworthy people on the planet, some with religious views some without. What, are you going ask every person if they believe in some form of religion first before you have a conversation with them?

Consider this: 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. What's wrong with that kind of religion?

I do not ask you to trust anything I say, I am simply asking a question and looking for answers.

Yes there are millions of trustworthy people on the planet but if they also choose to believe in something that I can see no factual evidence for then that causes my concern and that is why this thread is here.

I do not understand the last part of your post sorry.

But the OP does not ask any questions. All you have stated is that you don't trust anyone who believes in a religion. I don't see one question in your OP. I assume your atheist, maybe I'm wrong, in either case atheism is also a religion (No need to get into a convo about that I'm just saying), so in reality you can't even trust yourself.

a reply to: nonspecific

I was recently in your shoes a few years back--it stemmed from watching a lot of religion-atheist debates, then following links to other videos discrediting religion, etc. etc.

Whether you feel that your opinion is discrimination or not--it is. You either have to get comfortable with that, or move away from it and realize that there are billions of people on this earth who believe in religions, and many of them are extraordinary people capable of extraordinary things. Replacing a wheel cylinder in your braking system is nothing.

But, as I do, you can still marvel at the "why" behind their beliefs while still accepting that those same beliefs do not dictate their ability to do a job properly, nor does their propensity in holding said beliefs. I bet the builder that built the roof over your head was religious--are you concerned that it's going to crumble on top of you at any moment? Or even if you don't go to a religious mechanic, that doesn't mean the car coming toward you in the other lane wasn't taken to him.

You run the risk of becoming skeptical of everything because of this concern--just tread lightly in letting it take over your views of everyone, that's all I'm getting at.

originally posted by: CranialSponge
a reply to: nonspecific

I used to be able to just let it go but now it's different. It confuses me with the dissonance between such contradictory beliefs.

Perhaps it's concerning and confusing to you because, for whatever reason, you're unable to realize that people are more than capable of separating the two things ?

They're more than capable of following science AND holding a belief in a higher power without allowing the two to cross paths and contradict each other.

Me thinks you're not giving the human brain enough credit here, my friend.

Either that, or you're hanging out on ATS too much and have started to take the soapbox-standing American Christians (those loudmouthed minority ones that stick out like a sore thumb) as a sweeping representation of all believers... which, logically speaking, would obviously be a wrong way of seeing things.

I think that maybe I do have a problem with people seperating the two and you are right. Thats not something I can resolve or know if I would like to.

No issue with Christians really other than some of intolerances but that's something I can deal with.

Without wanting to offend and I cannot see how I can say this without bieng so if I am honest I find religious people a little embarresing.

Many years ago I was convinced that the Mayan calender and 2012 was the truth and I recall my friends would hang there heads in shame whenever I brought it up.

That is how I see religion now and although I wish it was not so I cannot change the fact.

originally posted by: RealTruthSeeker

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: RealTruthSeeker
And why should we trust any of the views that you hold? I've seen alot of sterotypes, but this is ridiculous. Are you saying you wouldn't let a doctor heal you because he believes in some form of God? There are millions of trustworthy people on the planet, some with religious views some without. What, are you going ask every person if they believe in some form of religion first before you have a conversation with them?

Consider this: 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. What's wrong with that kind of religion?

I do not ask you to trust anything I say, I am simply asking a question and looking for answers.

Yes there are millions of trustworthy people on the planet but if they also choose to believe in something that I can see no factual evidence for then that causes my concern and that is why this thread is here.

I do not understand the last part of your post sorry.

But the OP does not ask any questions. All you have stated is that you don't trust anyone who believes in a religion. I don't see one question in your OP. I assume your atheist, maybe I'm wrong, in either case atheism is also a religion (No need to get into a convo about that I'm just saying), so in reality you can't even trust yourself.

There were no direct questions in the OP but I hoped that it could be seen that I was not making a direct statement but looking to discuss my thoughts on this quite serious matter.

I do not know if I am an athiest either, I simply no longer trust anyone that bases there life on a structured religion and wished to find out more about my feelings.

a reply to: CranialSponge

You should know by now that eleventy percent of the population is wrong, and the other forthty pecent is lying.

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: RealTruthSeeker

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: RealTruthSeeker
And why should we trust any of the views that you hold? I've seen alot of sterotypes, but this is ridiculous. Are you saying you wouldn't let a doctor heal you because he believes in some form of God? There are millions of trustworthy people on the planet, some with religious views some without. What, are you going ask every person if they believe in some form of religion first before you have a conversation with them?

Consider this: 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. What's wrong with that kind of religion?

I do not ask you to trust anything I say, I am simply asking a question and looking for answers.

Yes there are millions of trustworthy people on the planet but if they also choose to believe in something that I can see no factual evidence for then that causes my concern and that is why this thread is here.

I do not understand the last part of your post sorry.

But the OP does not ask any questions. All you have stated is that you don't trust anyone who believes in a religion. I don't see one question in your OP. I assume your atheist, maybe I'm wrong, in either case atheism is also a religion (No need to get into a convo about that I'm just saying), so in reality you can't even trust yourself.

There were no direct questions in the OP but I hoped that it could be seen that I was not making a direct statement but looking to discuss my thoughts on this quite serious matter.

I do not know if I am an athiest either, I simply no longer trust anyone that bases there life on a structured religion and wished to find out more about my feelings.

So what do you expect to get out of this then? If you don't trust anything from someone who is religious how do you expect to find out more about your feeling when most of the people replying to this thread follow some kind of religion. I'm don't get it.

originally posted by: nonspecific
This is not a spur of the moment thing or something said simply to offend anyone or intice argument, it is simply a statement of fact.

For some time now I have been becoming more and more bemused by the concept of religious belief or any form of organised religion.

This makes me a little sad because so many brilliant people with amazing insight, knowledge and expertise leave me distrusting of them due to a completley unfounded and flawed(in my opinion) reasoning.

It has got to the point that I feel that if I ever needed a life saving operation then I could not trust a surgeon who was a follower of a religion.

This is not an easy thing to come to terms with as I always try and allow anyone the right to choose what to belive in but the basis and history of religion either organised or personal leaves me unable to comprehend.

I encourage and anticipate your polite and well structured replies.

LOL I'm sorry man but this is unintentionally funny. Are you serious about the part I bolded? You seriously are so against religion that you'd die before accepting surgery from a religious person? Then aren't you being a hypocrite by eating any food picked or grown by people who follow religions?

a reply to: nonspecific

Yes sir, it's hard to trust people that have preconceived notions about people, based on a mythological construct.

Praise Bob....