Are we encouraging marginalized thinking on ATS and MSM?

This is just something I've been thinking about and testing a bit. It's about stars on ATS. I don't necessarily care about them as some do because, if I were in this for the stars, I could just go outside and look up on a clear night. But it's slowly illustrating something to me.

We have far left and far right members on here. That's okay. I would be considered "far left". The difference between me and many other far left folks is that I support all rights; not just "socially progressive" ones. There are many left-leaning people who will support gay marriage, for example, but not the 2nd amendment. Likewise, there are many right-leaning people who pray to the constitution yet won't budge on matters of equality if it contradicts their religious dogma.

Here's what I've noticed: When a member makes a post that sees both sides of the fence, there are very few stars. But when something is said that speaks to the extreme leaners in either camp, it goes wild with stars. This is sort of what happens in MSM, the very thing we mostly abhor. The major news outlets drown out reason and puts on a pedestal the most biased viewpoints in order to marginalize the mid-range thinkers.

Another quick example: I'm against abortion which makes enemies with liberals however I'm also pro-choice which makes enemies with conservatives. How do I reconcile the two? Easy. It's not my body. The weapon I would fight abortion with is better access to healthcare, sex ed, and birth control... all things that most anti-abortion folks rail against for some reason. There's no room for reasonable middle ground, you see? It's been marginalized.

ATS is often thought of as "alternative", and we are, but isn't it alarming how our behaviors will mimic the very worst habit of the MSM? Squeezing out the voice of reason?

What do you guys think? Am I the only one who sees this?

a reply to: Cuervo

Just be pro ordinary citizens of this World without having to think about yourself as being left or right...that whole left/right crap is a bunch of gibberish anyway...both sides have sensible and not sensible things in them.

And yes, for a site which is supposed to be an alternative site, the official MSM line is pushed way too much over here.

a reply to: Cuervo

We have a cultural and social story of division, compounded with a need to assert superiority. This has existed for a while, though I am not convinced it has always been this way. This facet of our species has also been used to divide and conquer the general population many times.

It's the basic behavior that allows social manipulation in the first place. All that has to be done is make sure most people only see two choices, and see them as mutually exclusive. Everything beyond that is highly predictable.

I feel your pain and know exactly what you're talking about
And I'll leave it at that

a reply to: Cuervo

A very fair question and one that I think many would like answered (such as it can be).

When I see what I think of as issue based politics as opposed to ideological differences, I am happy that people are voicing their opinion on the subject. However, as you say, such microscopic treatment of tertiary policy is at best unimportant and at worst divisive.

The more philosophical discussions carry much more weight in my mind as one can derive insight and wisdom from holding oneself to account for their principals and honestly comparing them to those of others.

a reply to: Cuervo



Stars and flags only count for me if I can squeeze in some humor . So far I wont quit my daytime job to become a comedian . There was a good rant awhile back about getting on the band wagon of sorts .Not sure just how it works or if it can be explained but it seems that common posters you might expect at times don't .Too bad because they usually have the best insights on things I look to understand better . When collecting my links for news I amassed a great many liberal sources but found that they steer too far from the center of reality and so I ended up following mostly conservative ones . Far left or far right seems a bit loony to me and really requires more mental gymnastic then I am capable of ,or at least willing to engage in .

"ATS is often thought of as "alternative", and we are, but isn't it alarming how our behaviors will mimic the very worst habit of the MSM? Squeezing out the voice of reason? "

The only part that make us "alternative " are the differing voices and a desire to engage ,IMO ..The inability to reason at times probably has more to do with the individuals world perspectives .Dogma is not only for the religious and can strike at any heart that holds one .

Good points S&F.
I think the very nature f this site tends to attract extremes rather than centrists. I doubt you will find many of what we might call middle of the road John or Jane Smiths here. This site caters to those who think out of the box and in some cases waaaaay out of the box thinkers which tend to gravitate left or right depending upon their personal beliefs, So to sum up my opinion it's simply the demographics of the site just as certain MSM's cater to their demographic.

no matter how open minded people claim to be on this website, it's mostly about being able to say "i am right and i know better"
Of course not all people are like that, but the trend is obvious.
I disagree that we are becoming like the MSM though:
we were never any different to begin with.

a reply to: Cuervo

The weapon I would fight abortion with is better access to healthcare, sex ed, and birth control... all things that most anti-abortion folks rail against for some reason.

I think you confuse this.

I don't rail against people having access to health care. I want them to have access to health care. What I resent is the idea that their health care is somehow my responsibility to provide. I can barely afford to provide health care to my own family, but you seem to think that it is my responsibility to pay higher taxes to provide health care to other people at no cost out their own pockets while I struggle to pay the full cost out of mine.

This is what I rail against. I rail against the mechanism you seem to think is just in providing access to health care because it simply isn't just and no matter how you dress government health care up and smack lipstick on it, it never will be nor will it provide good health care to all.



Nor do I rail against sex ed. What I rail against is what others seem to think is sex ed. To me, sex ed is not about teaching positions or techniques. It's about teaching the birds and the bees. It's about teaching the dangers and consequences of irresponsible sex. It's about teaching basic contraceptive information.

And I do not want to take away birth control. However, I do think someone's birth control is their responsibility. Again, this goes along with the first point. Why is it my responsibility to pay for my birth control and provide it to an unnamed number of other people? You respect more what you have to pay for. Not only that, but if you want me to stay our of your bedroom, then stop demanding that I spend my money to subsidize what you want to do in it. If it's my money paying for it, than it's partially my choice and my business what goes on in there.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Cuervo



The only part that make us "alternative " are the differing voices and a desire to engage ,IMO ..The inability to reason at times probably has more to do with the individuals world perspectives .Dogma is not only for the religious and can strike at any heart that holds one .

Well said and I agree. Dogma isn't restricted to religious folks; we all hold dogma of some sort. The problem is the inability to set it aside for reasonable dialog. If I'm yelling "green!" and you are yelling "purple!", we can still both agree that we need a solution. That solution can be both or neither of those colors but it can't be only one of them.

a reply to: ketsuko

That's an entirely different thread we can write and debate over.

You made your feelings clear on birth control (and the other stuff) but you didn't address if you feel abortion should be illegal. Do you think it should be illegal but you are also not wanting to chip in to help prevent it with birth control?

I would gladly pay for birth control access in impoverished neighborhoods because it means less abortions. It is more effective than trying to illegalize it. This is what I meant by the inability for people to compromise.

a reply to: Cuervo

Yeah but who knows who is "starring" topics and posts.

For all you know there could be trolls with multiple accounts that star divisive comments.

Maybe ATS isn't marginalized or maybe it is. Who knows? We don't know who's clicking the stars at any given moment.

I don't like the star system personally although I find myself clicking on them here and there out of habit. I honestly think discussions on here would be far better without such a system. It encourages troll behavior and topics in my opinion.

originally posted by: OrphanApology
a reply to: Cuervo

Yeah but who knows who is "starring" topics and posts.

For all you know there could be trolls with multiple accounts that star divisive comments.

Maybe ATS isn't marginalized or maybe it is. Who knows? We don't know who's clicking the stars at any given moment.

I don't like the star system personally although I find myself clicking on them here and there out of habit. I honestly think discussions on here would be far better without such a system. It encourages troll behavior and topics in my opinion.

I love the star system precisely because it shows us these insights. To me, it's interesting to see and it gives us an at-a-glance view of ATS membership. I don't think it's being infiltrated to a degree of making it worthless, if at all. But, even if it is, wouldn't there be trolls of equal measure in both camps?

a reply to: Cuervo

See the opportune time to refer you to the dress color thread . I think there may be times when people will also avoid engaging to the point of having to adjust their sails to catch the wind .There is a point that maybe ,just maybe some will not get it and really don't want to .Some times it's just a trap in semantics and has no real value .tomato,tomato .It can be Juvenile but some people just give up on trying and are willing to settle for what they have . Spend a few days in the political world and it's not hard to see why they would either .

a reply to: Cuervo

I was thinking the same trolls starring divisive comments on either side of the fence.

a reply to: Cuervo
The effects of "Divide and Conquer" and it is working very well.
Good Post, I have the same abortion stance and I am Independent now for forty years. We need more Parties. This is how the Bankers want it, they don't care who wins an election.

originally posted by: Cuervo
a reply to: ketsuko

That's an entirely different thread we can write and debate over.

You made your feelings clear on birth control (and the other stuff) but you didn't address if you feel abortion should be illegal. Do you think it should be illegal but you are also not wanting to chip in to help prevent it with birth control?

I would gladly pay for birth control access in impoverished neighborhoods because it means less abortions. It is more effective than trying to illegalize it. This is what I meant by the inability for people to compromise.

We have had free and easy access to birth control in neighborhoods for a long time now and there is no proof it reduces the number of abortions. Most abortions in this country are in those very same neighborhoods.

And I don't think abortion should be completely illegal. There are clearly instances where it should be allowed. However, it should not be birth control or done for the convenience of a person which is the vast majority of cases. I have three close family members who are adoptees, one of them is my own husband. What do you honestly expect me to say here?

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Cuervo
a reply to: ketsuko

That's an entirely different thread we can write and debate over.

You made your feelings clear on birth control (and the other stuff) but you didn't address if you feel abortion should be illegal. Do you think it should be illegal but you are also not wanting to chip in to help prevent it with birth control?

I would gladly pay for birth control access in impoverished neighborhoods because it means less abortions. It is more effective than trying to illegalize it. This is what I meant by the inability for people to compromise.

We have had free and easy access to birth control in neighborhoods for a long time now and there is no proof it reduces the number of abortions. Most abortions in this country are in those very same neighborhoods.

And I don't think abortion should be completely illegal. There are clearly instances where it should be allowed. However, it should not be birth control or done for the convenience of a person which is the vast majority of cases. I have three close family members who are adoptees, one of them is my own husband. What do you honestly expect me to say here?

You should maybe say that there would be a lot more abortion survivors like your husband if we subsidized support for single mothers and adoption services. Adoption is spendy... soooooo spendy. If a pregnant single woman is faced with a life of poverty and killed dreams vs abortion and a second chance, what do you think she will choose? If that same woman was offered affordable daycare, better services, or even a streamline adoption with her medical bills paid for, do you think she would choose differently?

Again, this would make a good thread by itself but I don't mind the derailment if you don't.

This place is not the ATS of several years ago......
Once this site was based far more co operatively in attitudes....
Research was conducted as a group effort more, and the air of independent inquiry and thinking seemed more prevalent....
There weren't so many facebooky type threads either....like social media engage in today....
I think the whole face has altered somewhat with the demise of some honoured members as well as the addition of a much younger crowd of people....
Perhaps im wrong but many times ive cringed at the national tattler type of subjects.....where I would devour eagerly all the new threads at one time....now I just move on with a shrug....

I am adding a post I made on the "Boris Nemtsov (Putin Critic) killed in the center of Moscow":

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I looked thru the first 5 pages of comments on this thread and made a "pro west/anti Putin"/"Pro Putin/anti west"/"Critical of both/objective/neutral"/"not sure where to categorize list" but got tired after 5 pages.

So far i categorized them as:
15 posters where pro west/anti Putin
7 posters where Pro Putin/anti west
6 posters where Critical of both/objective/neutral
8 posters where Not sure where to categorize list

61 posts "pro west/anti Putin", 8 posts "Pro Putin/anti west", 11 posts "Critical of both/objective/neutral", 9 posts "Not sure where to categorize list".

If there are shills on ATS the budget on the "pro west/anti Putin" seem to be bigger than the "Pro Putin/anti west" side.

Also for the people who like stars. Do not post a reply where you are critical of both sides, since you will not get the one who star for your team to star you. Make one post pro and one post against for maximum stars.

I miss the days when ATS was more about giving though provoking Eureka moments and not the "my team is better than yours banter".