Poland cruisin' for a bruisin'

Poland is in NATO. A point to make when people are speculating about Russia taking "action" to punish Poland.

We have to remember that Russia is the aggressor having annexed Crimea and continues to agitate in eastern Ukraine. It is therefore a bit rich for them to bleat on that Poland is planning to supply weapons. Poland may well act as the conduit for other nations to support the modernisation of Ukraine.

It's also well to remember that at time of independence Poland and Ukraine had similar sized economies. Poland realigned towards Europe and now has an economy seven times larger. The reason why Ukraine want to shake off the shackles of Russian corruption and autocracy is because places like Poland have moved on, and they have not.

Regards

originally posted by: EvillerBob

originally posted by: Kusinjo
...It might work once because no one saw it coming. (Being a peewee league play) But will NEVER be allowed a second time.

Which is exactly what people said after WWI... or "The Great War" as they called it, seeing as they were going to ensure there was never going to be a second one.

I was speaking of the annexation Crimea via a referendum. But if I take your meaning correctly, I disagree. I believe, historically, we are seeing exactly what was intended. Google "Pike writing about the planning of 3 world wars before the beginning of the first great war" or just "pike world wars" hahah Any way yea. War is good for business, not so much you and me. But corporate profits soar during war times.

a reply to: noeltrotsky

I won't stoop to calling you stupid, but you are disillusioned. Noel Trotsky. Is that Polish? Sorry if offended you. But you are wrong, dude! I agree, Russia has tried to buy Ukraine. Maybe it was when they plowed through their dirt and laid out massive natural gas pipelines. O right, Europe had no interest whatsoever in getting Ukraine on their side. Let me ask you this. If what you say is true, why didn't the EU ask Ukraine to join? THEY ARE STILL not offering them to Join.

My football analogies are not stupid. I just think someone is having a hard time understanding them. Not calling you stupid, though.

a reply to: Kusinjo

Really?

2014 - Ukraine signs pact with EU despite Russian opposition

2014 - Ukraine And European Union Sign Landmark Political Deal

wiki - Ukraine–European Union Association Agreement

The Ukraine–European Union Association Agreement is a treaty between the European Union (EU) and Ukraine that establishes a political and economic association between the two parties. The parties committed to co-operate and converge economic policy, legislation, and regulation across a broad range of areas, including equal rights for workers, steps towards visa-free movement of people, the exchange of information and staff in the area of justice, the modernisation of Ukraine's energy infrastructure, and access to the European Investment Bank. The parties committed to regular summit meetings, and meetings among ministers, other officials, and experts.

The agreement commits Ukraine to economic, judicial and financial reforms to converge its policies and legislation to those of the European Union. Ukraine committed to gradually conform to EU technical and consumer standards.[5] The EU agreed to provide Ukraine with political and financial support, access to research and knowledge, and preferential access to EU markets. The agreement commits both parties to promote a gradual convergence toward the EU's Common Security and Defence Policy and European Defence Agency policies.

The agreement comes after more than two decades in which both parties sought to establish closer ties with each other. On the one hand, the European Union wants to ensure that its imports of grain and natural gas from Ukraine, as well as its exports of goods to Ukraine, are not threatened by instability in the region, believing that instability could eventually be reduced through sociopolitical and economic reforms in Ukraine.[6][7] Ukraine, on the other hand, wants to increase its exports by benefiting from free trade with the European Union while attracting desirable external investments, as well as establishing closer ties with a sociopolitical entity to which many Ukrainians feel strong cultural connection. Western Ukraine is found to be generally more enthusiastic about EU membership than Eastern Ukraine.[8][9]

The political provisions of the treaty were signed on 21 March 2014 after a series of events that had stalled its ratification culminated in a revolution in Ukraine and the ousting of the then incumbent President of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych.[10] This ousting was sparked by Yanukovych's refusal to sign the agreement. Russia, Ukraine's second largest trading partner, instead presented an association with customs union between Belarus, Kazakhstan and Russia as an alternative.[11][12] After 21 March 2014 matters relating to trade integration were temporarily set aside (awaiting the results of the 25 May 2014 Ukrainian presidential elections) until the European Union and the new Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko signed the economic part of the Ukraine–European Union Association Agreement on 27 June 2014,[2] and described this as Ukraine's "first but most decisive step" towards EU membership.[13] On 12 September 2014, provisional application of Title IV, and the related Annexes and Protocols was postponed to 31 December 2015. Provisional application of Titles III, V, VI and VII, and the related Annexes and Protocols came into force as of 1 November 2014.

Sources are at the bottom of the wiki page.

originally posted by: Kusinjo
Noel Trotsky. Is that Polish? Sorry if offended you.

Noel spelled backwards is Leon, add the Trotsky and it equals one hell of a good man. Personal opinion of course. No offense as I'm not Polish

But you are wrong, dude!

Really???

I agree, Russia has tried to buy Ukraine.

But you said I was wrong? Why agree with me?

Let me ask you this.

Sure, here to share my understandings...

If what you say is true,

it is to the best of my knowledge...

why didn't the EU ask Ukraine to join? THEY ARE STILL not offering them to Join.

The EU has accepted Ukraine's application to the EU and placed them on the tried and true accession path. To join a country has to change a million regulations and rules to harmonize with the EU. If they didn't companies would swarm into Ukraine and it's 'weak' labor standards and 'poor' environmental rules so these companies could exploit Ukraine and make massive profits. This process of joining the EU has been followed many times already and is well understood.

Think of it as a football play. The EU quarterback has to give the rookie running back Ukraine the playbook. Now they both go to practice and the rookie has no clue what he's doing, but the veteran QB guides him where to stand, where to move, how to get the ball during a handoff, inside elbow up. By the time a game comes the rookie has read the book and practiced enough to not look stupid and cause the team to lose.

Russia supplied cheap gas to Ukraine for years to maintain influence. Russia gave them the 3 billion US loan just before the decision to stop following the path towards the EU. It's incredibly obvious that Russia was using economic leverage, buying, against Ukraine. It's pretty clear what Russia was doing and you agree.

I think in the future if you don't imply everyone else only reads propaganda and you know the truth only that you'll enjoy posting in threads more. Of course some like to post like that, but I don't think that's you.

a reply to: noeltrotsky

I think you are mistaken. An application has not been accepted. Wasn't even given consideration. I am pretty sure you talking about the EU-Ukrainian free-trade and political association agreement. The Ukraine can't even meet the criteria to even apply for EU membership, so I don't know why you are going on about what is tried and true.

www.reuters.com...

Sincerely, I am sure you are a good man. I never said you were not. I apologize for insinuating that you are a Polish sympathizer. Doesn't matter. You became hot blooded for some reason. Anyway, setting that aside. We can argue all day about reasons we think this or that but there is no arguing about what is actually happening. What actually happened can be read and viewed every where. Ukraine was being baited to ally with the west and Russia was not going to simply sit back and allow it to happen. They occupied Crimea, which is nothing new for Russia, and offered them to VOTE on becoming Russian, which IS new for Russia. What is not obvious about what I have said here?
You assume that nations react out of anger and vengeance but that is a person would respond. Governments like Poland have a responsibility to act in the interests of their nation and their people. Selling the Ukraine their guns instead of the rebels is the only choice they really have. Not to sell guns at all is not really an option.

P.S. Maybe we can take down the personal attacks a touch.

originally posted by: Kusinjo
a reply to: noeltrotsky
I think you are mistaken. An application has not been accepted.

The EU has accepted Ukraine's application to the EU...and placed them on the path to fulfill that goal.

en.wikipedia.org...

"The Ukraine–European Union Association Agreement is a treaty between the European Union (EU) and Ukraine that establishes a political and economic association between the two parties. The parties committed to co-operate and converge economic policy, legislation, and regulation across a broad range of areas, including equal rights for workers, steps towards visa-free movement of people, the exchange of information and staff in the area of justice, the modernisation of Ukraine's energy infrastructure, and access to the European Investment Bank. The parties committed to regular summit meetings, and meetings among ministers, other officials, and experts.
The agreement commits Ukraine to economic, judicial and financial reforms to converge its policies and legislation to those of the European Union. Ukraine committed to gradually conform to EU technical and consumer standards.[5] The EU agreed to provide Ukraine with political and financial support, access to research and knowledge, and preferential access to EU markets. The agreement commits both parties to promote a gradual convergence toward the EU's Common Security and Defence Policy and European Defence Agency policies."

Of course the EU can't guarantee Ukraine entry into the EU because all the work hasn't been done. However a country doesn't even get onto this very expensive and time consuming path unless the EU has accepted they can join after the work is done. I don't understand why this is so difficult for you to accept. You seem to be saying Ukraine isn't in the EU RIGHT NOW so the EU gave them nothing. That is completely wrong.

Ukraine was being baited to ally with the west and Russia was not going to simply sit back and allow it to happen.

Ukraine wasn't baited by anyone. They saw that other ex-Soviet countries that had joined the EU prospered many times more than they did being close to Russia. Tell me what 'bait' the EU dangled in front of Ukraine to pry them away from mother Russia? Be specific, cause you said Ukraine was 'baited'.

Further, what gives Russia the right to 'allow it to happen' as you call Ukrainians picking an alliance with the EU over Russia? That's like a husband who gets told by his wife she is divorcing him saying I'm not going to 'allow it to happen'. Of course Russia has absolutely zero 'rights' to Ukraine.

They occupied Crimea, which is nothing new for Russia, and offered them to VOTE on becoming Russian, which IS new for Russia.

The vote carried out in Crimea wasn't recognized by 99% of the world. It was done after Russia INVADED Crimea and took over everything by armed force. You can't call a vote after an invasion 'free and fair', something any right minded individual understands is needed for a 'vote'. Did you know the option to stay with Ukraine was NOT on the 'vote' in Crimea? What a joke.

P.S. Maybe we can take down the personal attacks a touch.

Absolutely feel free to alert a mod to any post you find offensive. Considering your initial stance that everyone else reads only propaganda and only you know the truth it's a little odd you didn't expect someone to call you out on that here at ATS. No matter thou...you click that little man under the star counter as often as you feel the need.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
The EU has accepted Ukraine's application to the EU and placed them on the tried and true accession path. To join a country has to change a million regulations and rules to harmonize with the EU. If they didn't companies would swarm into Ukraine and it's 'weak' labor standards and 'poor' environmental rules so these companies could exploit Ukraine and make massive profits. This process of joining the EU has been followed many times already and is well understood.

Just to correct an error... Ukraine has not applied to join the EU. As an application has not been made, no acceptance by the EU has been given.

Ukraine is part of he EU's Eastern Partnership agreement and the nation has - since 2009 - had some EU brokered deals with Poland e.g. to facilitate the easier movement of people between the two nations.

Ukraine is also part of the European Neighbourhood Policy. I think that through this agreement they may have a status of "aspirating" to join the EU, which over the last year will have become more pronounced through the actions of bullying Russia. Ukraine, Georgia, Armenia, Azabyjan and Moldova "aspire" to join the EU, or at least forge closer ties.

You are right on process to join the EU. This is a protracted process of aligning political, civil, democratic and judicial processes. This would serve to cut out all the flabby corruption and rubbish that is the typical legacy of being intertwined with Russia for so long.

ec.europa.eu...

Regards

a reply to: noeltrotsky

Hm. Your last comment boggles me. I made a general statement. You misunderstood my intentions and went crazy with it, and started your argument, which we clearly do not agree, with personal attacks. I am not going to tattle. I just think you might want to tone down your combative attitude. You haven't fought any of my comments with clear facts, only your interpretations of facts and opinions.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I feel ALL governments have a right to protect their interests. That includes Russia as well as Poland. Poland is going to sell their guns and Russia is going to be mad about it. THAT IS IT. There is going to be ZERO backlash from it. TELL ME I AM WRONG AND BACK IT UP WITH FACT. Otherwise I am done with this exchange. Good day, Sir!