Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: spy66

How do we know what type of missile was used?

At the russian debreif they said the Su-25 used R-60 missiles.

I was good to see some dignity today in the Netherlands for the victims that arrived there, especially after what they went through for days in the hands of the separatists.

a reply to: yuppa

Su-25 is similar to Mig-27, another Soviet bomber.

The plane is designed for low level penetration. But keep in mind that Mig-27 can fly up to 13000 meters.

The speed and height attained by the aircraft depends on a lot of factors - called mission profile in air force.

I am responding to an article "Will India, the world's largest democracy, continue to side with an authoritarian Russia?"

India does not want to rush to conclusions like USA and some European countries. India recognizes that USA is involved in the Ukrainian civil war. By this very fact, USA is NOT a neutral party in Ukrainian conflict.

While the article is written by an Indian sounding name, there is no knowing who exactly wrote this CNN article. The article seems propaganda looking at the content.

India is no way a party to the situation in Ukraine, and has no wish to become a party to it.

The article uses word "authoritarian" for Russia. I argue that same word can be used for USA, UK, Germany, and definitely Ukraine.

Russia has adopted a democratic political setup and its government is no longer following communism.

So calling Russia "authoritarian" is slander.

originally posted by: GargIndia
a reply to: yuppa

Su-25 is similar to Mig-27, another Soviet bomber.

The plane is designed for low level penetration. But keep in mind that Mig-27 can fly up to 13000 meters.

The speed and height attained by the aircraft depends on a lot of factors - called mission profile in air force.

An SU 25 and a mig 27 are not the same craft wow really? Look saying there the same is like saying an a 10 is the same as an f15. Wow you have like zero knowledge of aircraft dont you? The SU 25 is a ground attack aircraft used for fire support it flies low heavily armed. It has armor to withstand gunfire titanium to be exact the reason it cant fly very high either its heavy. The mig 27 is an attack aircraft meaning its made to shoot down other jets it doesnt have armor. its designed to be light and fast and could easily shoot down a frogfoot or SU 25 because su 25s arent made to down other aircraft. Very similar to an A10 trying to dogfight an F15 last about 5 seconds.

But lets play with this ridiculous theory for a minute let me ask a question why would Ukraine arm a ground attack aircraft with air to air missiles? Not like the separatists were seen flying around aircraft and thats one rocket pod they could use for pummeling the separatists. In a real combat situation real fighter aircraft provide cover and support like the A10 it isnt going into hostile territory where the enemy has fighters without its own. So in the unlikely scenario where they ran across a fighter they get low and run and hope to avoid there radar returns. Because anything other than a helicopter there air to air missiles are useless.

Now here is my favorite quote from the Russian debrief partly because its just funny i cant believe he said this with a straight face

“At 17:21’35, with [the Boeing’s] velocity having dropped to 200 kilometers per hour, a new mark detecting an airborne object appears at the spot of the Boeing’s destruction. This new airborne object was continuously detected for the duration of four minutes by the radar stations Ust-Donetsk and Buturinskaya. An air traffic controller requested the characteristics of the new airborne object, but was unable to get any readings on its parameters – most likely due to the fact that the new aircraft was not equipped with a secondary surveillance radar transponder, which is a distinctive feature of military aircraft,” said Makushev.

“Detecting the new aircraft became possible as it started to ascend. Further changes in the airborne object’s coordinates suggest that it was hovering above the Boeing 777’s crash site, monitoring of the situation.”

First part they were surprised they didnt get a transponder return as they said especially from a military aircraft. Hmmmmm how do you know its a military aircraft than oh wait you dont. But it gets better why does he believe the Ukrainian transponder should have identified itself in the first place it uses a code. And the cool thing about it you can reset it during the flight in fact there changed frequently and the new codes have to be issued. the code is usually challenged in 3 bursts and works out to 24 bit encryption. Again a code that the military can usee to identify if its theirs. Now even the dumbest of Russian generals knows Ukraine isnt going to hand over their transponder codes to the Russians yet he said this with a straight face.

Then in this same paragragh he makes the claim its a jet right sure but wait than he says it hovers over the scene, Hmmmm Ukrainians must be flying Harriers???? I know Ukraine made a deal with aliens and it was a UFO. Well at least now US generals have lots of jokes they can make at this poor generals expense. Because i know he was made to do that by the Kremlin and he probably even tried to warn them that this was stupid.

originally posted by: GargIndia
The article uses word "authoritarian" for Russia. I argue that same word can be used for USA, UK, Germany, and definitely Ukraine.

Russia has adopted a democratic political setup and its government is no longer following communism.

So calling Russia "authoritarian" is slander.

Actually it would be libel - slander is spoken, libel is written.
But you don't have to be communist to be authoritarian - shutting down opposition parties and politicians, state control over media, an internet surveillance programme that makes the NSA look amateurish, hooking up with the Russian Orthodox church as a support, electoral term limits that are meaningless.....

Yes - Russia is authoritarian.

Sorry about that.

nah...OK - it's a fair cop - i'm not

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: GargIndia
a reply to: yuppa

Su-25 is similar to Mig-27, another Soviet bomber.

The plane is designed for low level penetration. But keep in mind that Mig-27 can fly up to 13000 meters.

The speed and height attained by the aircraft depends on a lot of factors - called mission profile in air force.

An SU 25 and a mig 27 are not the same aircraft wow really? Look saying there the same is like saying an a 10 is the same as an f15. Wow you have like zero knowledge of aircraft dont you? The SU 25 is a ground attack aircraft used for fire support it flies low heavily armed. It has armor to withstand gunfire titanium to be exact the reason it cant fly very high either its heavy. The mig 27 is an attack aircraft meaning its made to shoot down other jets it doesnt have armor. its designed to be light and fast and could easily shoot down a frogfoot or SU 25 because su 25s arent made to down other aircraft. Very similar to an A10 trying to dogfight an F15 last about 5 seconds.

GargIndia didn't say they were the same aircraft. He said they are similar, and he is correct.

You seem to be confusing the Mig27, which like the SU25 is a ground attack A/C., with the SU27 which would be comparable to the F15 you mentioned.

And btw, the Ukrainians fly the SU27 too, and it's service ceiling is something like 60,000'.

originally posted by: GargIndia
a reply to: yuppa
Su-25 is similar to Mig-27, another Soviet bomber.

Already established that they are not.

The speed and height attained by the aircraft depends on a lot of factors - called mission profile in air force.

the Russian ATC video shows no other aircraft in the area than the other 2 civil airliners - UNTIL MH17 starts changing course, speed and altitude - which looks like when it was hit.

From that point there is another contact - but that contact dos not move very far, and only descends - it looks a lot more like a piece of wreckage falling than an aircraft flying!!

the radar images of the shooting down are from about 11 minutes in this video - check for yourself:



www.youtube.com... - link in case it does not embed properly - it failed to do so in another post.

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul

originally posted by: GargIndia
a reply to: yuppa
Su-25 is similar to Mig-27, another Soviet bomber.

Already established that they are not.

Established by whom?

The SU25 and Mig27 are both ground attack bombers of similar size, performance and capability.

Both are armed with A/A missiles, rockets, bombs and a single cannon.

The Mig27 flys a little faster and a little higher on it's single, much larger engine and swing wing than the SU25, but not by much.

originally posted by: Psynic

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: GargIndia
a reply to: yuppa

Su-25 is similar to Mig-27, another Soviet bomber.

The plane is designed for low level penetration. But keep in mind that Mig-27 can fly up to 13000 meters.

The speed and height attained by the aircraft depends on a lot of factors - called mission profile in air force.

An SU 25 and a mig 27 are not the same aircraft wow really? Look saying there the same is like saying an a 10 is the same as an f15. Wow you have like zero knowledge of aircraft dont you? The SU 25 is a ground attack aircraft used for fire support it flies low heavily armed. It has armor to withstand gunfire titanium to be exact the reason it cant fly very high either its heavy. The mig 27 is an attack aircraft meaning its made to shoot down other jets it doesnt have armor. its designed to be light and fast and could easily shoot down a frogfoot or SU 25 because su 25s arent made to down other aircraft. Very similar to an A10 trying to dogfight an F15 last about 5 seconds.

GargIndia didn't say they were the same aircraft. He said they are similar, and he is correct.

You seem to be confusing the Mig27, which like the SU25 is a ground attack A/C., with the SU27 which would be comparable to the F15 you mentioned.

And btw, the Ukrainians fly the SU27 too, and it's service ceiling is some thing like 60,000'.

Hes comparing an SU 25 with a mig 27 to entirely different aircraft if you think there the same your wrong to. See just because an aircraft can drop bombs doesnt mean its a ground attack aircraft. See floggers actually fly to fast for ground attack reason they use bombs. Also altitude allows them to drop bombs away from manpads. The SU 25 is a slugger used for close air support. They use it to destroy tanks apcs and fortified locations. lots of rounds and rocket pods its basically a faster moving Hind d helicopter its roles are the same. If you dont understand military equipment and what its used for which is obvious stick to quoting experts.

Ps thought id say mig 27 is classified as an interceptor suggest you look that up.

a reply to: dragonridr

So is the new spin by the Russians that is was a Mig 27 instead of an SU 25?

Secondly Russia, according to their press releases, stated they identified the aircraft as an SU-25.

so which is it?

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: dragonridr

So is the new spin by the Russians that is was a Mig 27 instead of an SU 25?

Secondly Russia, according to their press releases, stated they identified the aircraft as an SU-25.

so which is it?

So now we have experts telling us the Russian general was wrong oh i see i missed that. Well hmmmm than why would the Russian general make the claim without verifying it? Ok next will have Ukrainians flying UFOs they borrowed from alpha centauri. It amazes me the amount of disinformation people will use just so they dont have to give up there fantasies. Ok a flogger would be used for ground attack not its roll at all. It can drop a bomb but that attacks a location unless its a nuke not much use for its bomber roll you use a bomber. Its job is an interceptor meaning it shoots down other airplanes. So either they had this configured for air combat not likely separatists dont have airplanes yet anyway though im sure there on order at there local hardware store where they get everything else. So the Ukrainians being stupid are going to load a bomb on to the mig 27 when they have an su 25 that can hold more. Su 25 has 11 hardpoints the mig 27 has 5 with two wing glove pylons. You can mount rocket pods to a SU 25 not possible on mig 27.

So why again would Ukraine use this and why couldnt Russia pick it up on there radar for more than 4 min its what there radar was designed to track guess Russian tech isnt what we thought it was.

originally posted by: GargIndia
The article uses word "authoritarian" for Russia. I argue that same word can be used for USA, UK, Germany, and definitely Ukraine.

Russia has adopted a democratic political setup and its government is no longer following communism.

So calling Russia "authoritarian" is slander.

Russia does not have a free press and has terrible human right issues with minority groups. I would call that the very definition of authoritarian rule. Truth be told Russia is controlled by an oligarchy. And you are right about one thing almost every 1st world country is about the same thing. But to say Russia is any different would not be accurate.

originally posted by: SubTruth

originally posted by: GargIndia
The article uses word "authoritarian" for Russia. I argue that same word can be used for USA, UK, Germany, and definitely Ukraine.

Russia has adopted a democratic political setup and its government is no longer following communism.

So calling Russia "authoritarian" is slander.

Russia does not have a free press and has terrible human right issues with minority groups. I would call that the very definition of authoritarian rule. Truth be told Russia is controlled by an oligarchy. And you are right about one thing almost every 1st world country is about the same thing. But to say Russia is any different would not be accurate.

Well Putin has political rivals arrested and jailed so well yeah that's different ok may be not. Well he controls the press and they only put out what he wants ok that's not different either. Well he no longer has human rights violations like the soviets did oh wait forgot about treatment of gays and of course immigrants and now the tartars in Crimea .Ok wait I know they dont invade other countries and force them to live under Russian rule ok that was hard to say with a straight face after Crimea and Georgia. So i guess its just more of the same after all just wrapped up in a new name.

Seriously that aside couldnt help myself i think theirs sufficient evidence to prove the separatists indeed shot down the airliner. As far as Russian support looks like it but the key is an upcoming UN report see when they took over areas from the separatists they left in a hurry and alot of equipment they left behind is being looked at. i think that will be proof of Putins involvement. Now the west is looking for proof where before they were happy only to make accusations because than they wouldnt actually have to do anything about it.

a reply to: dragonridr

The West is fighting a bitter war against Russia. What is happening in Ukraine is part of that bitter war.

As Russia fights this war, it is logical that the freedoms of citizens are curtailed. The infiltration of Russian society by enemy combatants is a serious problem due to size of the country. In war, it is logical that State would take actions that are not taken in peacetime.

NWO fights its wars 24x7x365. Anybody who thinks otherwise is ignoring reality.

There may be more freedoms in Western countries (at least on paper) due to relative peace. We shall see American behavior when America is at war on its home turf.

originally posted by: SubTruth

originally posted by: GargIndia
The article uses word "authoritarian" for Russia. I argue that same word can be used for USA, UK, Germany, and definitely Ukraine.

Russia has adopted a democratic political setup and its government is no longer following communism.

So calling Russia "authoritarian" is slander.

Russia does not have a free press and has terrible human right issues with minority groups. I would call that the very definition of authoritarian rule. Truth be told Russia is controlled by an oligarchy. And you are right about one thing almost every 1st world country is about the same thing. But to say Russia is any different would not be accurate.

No Western country has a free press. If they did, CNN will not be full of propaganda.

There may be some human rights issue in Russia, but Russia is facing a remarkable number of attacks, and so has become inwards looking.

Every Western country is dominated by an oligarchy, USA being no exception.

I never said Russia is different. I said Russia is facing a wide scale war from the West. It is responding to protect itself.

a reply to: GargIndia

Its no doubt that Our press is one sided.

Our press never even tuches on covert operation conducted by the US, NATO or the EU, they only accuse and blame Russia for conducting covert oppereations within Ukraine.

All Our media is pushing one way, and that is towards the pro-russians and Russia. Our political Circus is also pushing one way.

a reply to: dragonridr

The mig 27 is absolutely NOT an interceptor. It's highly modified variant of the mig 23 designed specifically for the ground attack and fighter bomber roles. It's probably a better interceptor than the su 25 purely because the plane it is based on performed the interceptor role but it is much slower than the mig 23 it is based on and was built specifically with air to ground operations in mind.

Rebel crash site sabotage plan intercepted