Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

a reply to: Xcathdra

Xcathdra, you are still ignoring even mainstream news articles that are not propaganda? How many rimes can you put Kerry's post up and say you are saying anything new? US intelligence has far less than ''undeniable evidence'. see;

www.huffingtonpost.com...

No smoking gun.

ghospigeon

a reply to: ghostpigeon

As I stated in my post that you replied to.. Each person is free to believe whichever article they want. Ironic though you attack the Kerry article yet sidestep the ITAR-TASS report stating the rebels had BUK sams.

a reply to: Xcathdra

I was not ignoring that article. It simply provides no tangible proof of anything, since Ukraine has its own buk systems.

originally posted by: ghostpigeon
a reply to: Xcathdra

I was not ignoring that article. It simply provides no tangible proof of anything, since Ukraine has its own buk systems.

So do the rebels.

nv

Now USA, changes tide, "it was an accident" "we dont know who did, ethnicity, etc" ... Another fail attempt to create ww3. Case is closed, now lets see where you going to focus your tries to begin the war, Iran? Syria?

I think is going to be IRAN, but maybe they also try to destabilize countries like roomania, bulgaria, serbia...

and if you cant understand what I am talking about, here is today news, even from western controlled media from my country. They try to give a weight to the new russia army, but they also say, they dont know who did and the ethnicity (????)

link

and here is the same news, from the website you hate, because its more russian friendly...
link

a reply to: Ploutonas

Now USA, changes tide, "it was an accident" "we dont know who did, ethnicity, etc" ... Another fail attempt to create ww3. Case is closed, now lets see where you going to focus your tries to begin the war, Iran? Syria?

The reason they don't know ethnicity is because they weren't sitting next to the person firing the missile. Why are you stuck on the US trying to create WW3 as nobody is trying to start a war?

What case is closed?

And again you seemed to be stuck on the US is trying to cause some sort of global war, it's time to take off the tin foil hat and come back down to reality as this isn't the US trying to start WW3.

Lastly you haven't seen what the US has and they aren't going to tell you how they got the info they have as that puts their assets at risk of being known....Satellite spying that is not boots on the ground.

a reply to: Ploutonas

link

Interesting, but the last time I checked the US Secret Service does not investigate anything that doesn't involve the president or financial fraud this article is laughable.

Here is what the US Secret Service does...

Investigative Mission

The Secret Service was established as a law enforcement agency in 1865. While most people associate the Secret Service with presidential protection, its original mandate was to investigate the counterfeiting of U.S. currency, a mission the Secret Service is still mandated to carry out.

Today the agency's primary investigative mission is to safeguard the payment and financial systems of the United States. This has been historically accomplished through the enforcement of counterfeiting statutes to preserve the integrity of United States currency, coin and financial obligations.

Since 1984, the Secret Service's investigative responsibilities have expanded to include crimes that involve financial institution fraud, computer and telecommunications fraud, false identification documents, access device fraud, advance fee fraud, electronic funds transfers and money laundering as it relates to the agency's core violations.

To combat these crimes, the Secret Service has adopted a proactive approach that utilizes advanced technologies.

www.secretservice.gov...

Sorry they don't investigate plane crashes.

link

We already know which line this source tows so really isn't much to say about it now is there?

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Ploutonas

Now USA, changes tide, "it was an accident" "we dont know who did, ethnicity, etc" ... Another fail attempt to create ww3. Case is closed, now lets see where you going to focus your tries to begin the war, Iran? Syria?

The reason they don't know ethnicity is because they weren't sitting next to the person firing the missile. Why are you stuck on the US trying to create WW3 as nobody is trying to start a war?

What case is closed?

And again you seemed to be stuck on the US is trying to cause some sort of global war, it's time to take off the tin foil hat and come back down to reality as this isn't the US trying to start WW3.

Lastly you haven't seen what the US has and they aren't going to tell you how they got the info they have as that puts their assets at risk of being known....Satellite spying that is not boots on the ground.

Both the US and Russia have early warning missile detection systems. Why didnt the US or Russia pick up a BUK missile being fired?

The US even had one of their missile detection satellites at location? Is that because there were never a BUK missile used to Down MH17?

Why do we argue about the location of the BUK systems or who owns the BUKs if there they were never used to Down MH17.

If a BUK missile was used and that is the argument being used. Where is the evidence that a BUK missile was used?

How can we they Call it a accidental targeting of the BUK system if no missile have been detected being fired from a BUK system?

a reply to: bigfoot007

The West will DEFINITELY say it was an accident before they will admit it was the Ukrainian govt they backed.

originally posted by: j.r.c.b.
a reply to: Seek_Truth

Wow!! That's a LOT more then what I thought!! Geez.....too sad for words....I wanted to add, the manifesto had more then 200 souls on board according to its release didnt it?? I could have sworn it did.

I believe they found around 230 so far (there were 298).

Malaysia Flight MH17 May Have Been Escorted By Ukrainian Su-27 Fighter Jets

The article discusses the possibility of MH17 being escorted by 2 SU-27's.

Here is my issue with that position.

The Russians already identified the airplane as an SU-25..

Is it possible the type of aircraft changed because of the limitations on an SU-25?

We had some questions a bunch of pages back about the ability of sams being able to identify aircraft by transponder codes. Apparently they can -

Indeed, the operators inside the Buk could “read” the Boeing 777′s altitude and transponder and could easily identify the civilian plane en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur flying at FL300 inside the eastern Ukraine’s airspace.

a reply to: Zaphod58

As I understood it there were two possible locations of impact. You know they can't really tell what happened until they piece the plane back together.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Here's another link to another AP article on the state if intelligence on Russian involvement (or not).

www.huffingtonpost.com...

Ghostpigeon

a reply to: Xcathdra

I would say that they would be immediately aware of the limitations. They have experts on hand so I doubt they weren't like "oh damn we have to change this" a week later.

If it were escorted and attacked by rebels (i believe right now that it's 75 percent chance Ukraine shot it down - 25 percent chance Rebels) seems like they would have shot at the lower slower SU first/also.

Really though, we just don't know. Ukraine had the motive and capabilities both tech and personnel, but can't completely dismiss rebels.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Malaysia Flight MH17 May Have Been Escorted By Ukrainian Su-27 Fighter Jets

The article discusses the possibility of MH17 being escorted by 2 SU-27's.

Here is my issue with that position.

The Russians already identified the airplane as an SU-25..

Is it possible the type of aircraft changed because of the limitations on an SU-25?

We had some questions a bunch of pages back about the ability of sams being able to identify aircraft by transponder codes. Apparently they can -

Indeed, the operators inside the Buk could “read” the Boeing 777′s altitude and transponder and could easily identify the civilian plane en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur flying at FL300 inside the eastern Ukraine’s airspace.

If there were two SU - 27 escorting the Mh17. The SU-27s would be Ukrainian SUs. They would for sure have picked up a BUK if it was heading for the Mh17. And i think if the pro-russians had fired the BUK missile. The radar evidence of that would have been displaied by the Ukrain government as evidence.

The other thing is. The SU-27 would probably have broken of from escorting the MH17 if they knew that a missile was heading for them. And the SU-27 would have been detected by radar before Mh17 was hit.

Mh17 would probably also have changed cource very fast to if it knew that a missile was heading in their direction. And that would also have been picked up by radar.

a reply to: spy66

Eh you make some points, but are wrong in some instances.

Mh17 wouldn't have seen the missile, and if it were a Buk traveling 1200 mph it would have struck probably 10 seconds after launch. No getting away from that.

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: spy66

Eh you make some points, but are wrong in some instances.

Mh17 wouldn't have seen the missile, and if it were a Buk traveling 1200 mph it would have struck probably 10 seconds after launch. No getting away from that.

But if Mh17 is being escorted it would have had Communications With the 2 SU-27s. Mh17 was flying at a speed Close to 900km/h. Within 10 Seconds Mh17 should have been able to change cource such that the radar would have picked it up?

There are engagment tactics when flying escort. Something of that would have showed up on radar?

a reply to: Xcathdra

Has anyone posted on the importance of Crimea and Sevastopol to the Russian Navy? Crimea is 58% ethnic Russian and Sevastopol is 71% ethnic Russian. the corridor from Russian territory to Sevastopol runs through Donetsk (about 38% ethnic Russian - definitely a minority, but a large one. Why in the world would Russia not want a corridor to their naval bases and why would they not fight to get one. Seems like a renegotiation of Russian access to Sevastopol with Ukraine is necessary. May not solve the who shot what down question, but it's important to put it in context, eh?. What if Halifax became an issue to the US, we wouldn't we want access? Already have it as a cooperative treaty between US and Canada. Just something to think about.

GP

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Ploutonas

Now USA, changes tide, "it was an accident" "we dont know who did, ethnicity, etc" ... Another fail attempt to create ww3. Case is closed, now lets see where you going to focus your tries to begin the war, Iran? Syria?

The reason they don't know ethnicity is because they weren't sitting next to the person firing the missile. Why are you stuck on the US trying to create WW3 as nobody is trying to start a war?

What case is closed?

And again you seemed to be stuck on the US is trying to cause some sort of global war, it's time to take off the tin foil hat and come back down to reality as this isn't the US trying to start WW3.

Lastly you haven't seen what the US has and they aren't going to tell you how they got the info they have as that puts their assets at risk of being known....Satellite spying that is not boots on the ground.

Both the US and Russia have early warning missile detection systems. Why didnt the US or Russia pick up a BUK missile being fired?

The US even had one of their missile detection satellites at location? Is that because there were never a BUK missile used to Down MH17?

Why do we argue about the location of the BUK systems or who owns the BUKs if there they were never used to Down MH17.

If a BUK missile was used and that is the argument being used. Where is the evidence that a BUK missile was used?

How can we they Call it a accidental targeting of the BUK system if no missile have been detected being fired from a BUK system?

Wow your so lost in Putins world its amazing is he paying you if not he should be. Lets step back into reality for a minute. First the launch was detected in fact plotted the missile path. As for evidence well investigators already said it was a sam just from a preliminary investigation.The only question now is which one they may be able to tell us soon. Now lets move on to the Buk system its been confirmed the rebel have one or did at least. Funny part is Russian media confirmed that one another opps moment. Than there was bragging by are rebel leader before the crash and even bragged the day the day the malaysian flight was shot down. Had to quickly remove that post after he realized they made a mistake. Than of course his conversations were being monitored and he admits they shot a plane down another oops moment. Now as far as being able to prove it was Russians that launched shear speculation unless you want to say the Chechens are Russian troops remains to be seen or proved though likely.

We have photos of Buk in staging area with Russia and we again have pictures released of the Buk setting in Separatists territory and sneaking back across the border afterwards. Much of this info was released in the UN report to the security council where Lavrov had to attempt to defend them by saying ok well if they did it they didnt mean to. Or darn them huh another oops that cost a lot of lives.Where you aware lifenews even reported the sepratists shot down another miltary plane right before they realized they had to pull that story because ooops civilian plane.

Now as far as world war 3 grow up no one is causing world war 3 there would not be a direct confrontation with the US unless Putin went totally crazy. He knows he could win and Russia couldnt stand up against NATO if NATO said screw this and threw troops into Ukraine the Russian support would disappear. Reality is the US doesnt want to deal with Ukraine and never did this is just a delusional fantasy cooked up by Putin for Russian consumption, and its a dangerous game hes playing i might add.

I know im waisting my time here but heres a blog that puts all the info in one place and he even explains footage and verifies locations in great detail. At least others can see it and draw there own conclusions so here it is.Just so you know i never draw a conclusion until ive seen facts to prove it i even explored the whole a Ukrainian jet shotit down Russian story didnt hold up to scrutiny. Also found the Buk that Russia claimed was in the area was a satellite photo of a Ukrainian base that guess what they kept the Buk launchers even before this conflict started. And heres the fun part it is to far away to have taken down the plane unless you know Ukrainian missiles are better than the Russian ones??

ukraineatwar.blogspot.com...