Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

originally posted by: fatdeeman
Rebel crash site sabotage plan intercepted

Would like to listen to that. Even the Ukrainians showed the 'tapped recordings'.

Sorry again for being an annoying Russian apoligist.

originally posted by: fatdeeman
a reply to: dragonridr

The mig 27 is absolutely NOT an interceptor. It's highly modified variant of the mig 23 designed specifically for the ground attack and fighter bomber roles. It's probably a better interceptor than the su 25 purely because the plane it is based on performed the interceptor role but it is much slower than the mig 23 it is based on and was built specifically with air to ground operations in mind.

Mig-27 can be used in air to air combat hence it is a fighter bomber, su-25 in other hand is an ground attack aircraft not fighter-bomber, it was never designed for aerial combat and it wouldnt do well in that area.. one can equip it with a-a missilles but mainly because it can then engage Attack helicopters and its meant for self defence only... it would be pure idiotism trying to use it air combat...

originally posted by: GargIndia
The West is fighting a bitter war against Russia. What is happening in Ukraine is part of that bitter war.

Not really no.

originally posted by: GargIndia
As Russia fights this war, it is logical that the freedoms of citizens are curtailed. The infiltration of Russian society by enemy combatants is a serious problem due to size of the country. In war, it is logical that State would take actions that are not taken in peacetime.

Wars do not require the limiting of civil liberties. If a nation curtails civil liberties during a war it makes one wonder what they are hiding from the general public. Using the excuse of society infiltration was used by Hitler to justify his actions.

Your excuses remind me of this quote -

"So this is how liberty dies...with thunderous applause."

originally posted by: GargIndia
NWO fights its wars 24x7x365. Anybody who thinks otherwise is ignoring reality.

Who is the NWO?

originally posted by: GargIndia
There may be more freedoms in Western countries (at least on paper) due to relative peace. We shall see American behavior when America is at war on its home turf.

When compared to Russia "at least on paper" is an invalid response. What war will we be fighting on our homefront?

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: spy66

How do we know what type of missile was used?

At the russian debreif they said the Su-25 used R-60 missiles.

Did they say the SU-25 used those missiles in the context they are capable or did they state that was the missile that was used?

originally posted by: fatdeeman
a reply to: dragonridr

The mig 27 is absolutely NOT an interceptor. It's highly modified variant of the mig 23 designed specifically for the ground attack and fighter bomber roles. It's probably a better interceptor than the su 25 purely because the plane it is based on performed the interceptor role but it is much slower than the mig 23 it is based on and was built specifically with air to ground operations in mind.

To add to your post of the Mig-27. They all were retired from Ukraine(completely retired and out of service) and Russia's (mothballed) air-force.

Ukraine's Airforce inventory - wikipedia


ETA -
Here is the link to the Ukraine Ministry of Defense with updates on the military side of the spectrum.

It looks like the drones being shot down are Russian. The link below is to the Google translation for English.

Ukraine Ministry of Defense

The link below is native language -
Ukraine MOD - Native language.

a reply to: Xcathdra
Yeah, why in the world would they put Frogfoot to shoot down an aircraft when they have tons of aircraft more cabable for the job... ?
I have to wonder what goes on in minds of some people in ats...

a reply to: zoomer72

I said myself it would be better at air to air than a su 25 but that doesn't make it an interceptor. It was never intended to shoot down other planes, it's designed to attack ground based targets. It's no more an air to air fighter than a British Tornado fighter bomber which also carries air to air missles but purely for self defence.

originally posted by: fatdeeman
a reply to: zoomer72

I said myself it would be better at air to air than a su 25 but that doesn't make it an interceptor. It was never intended to shoot down other planes, it's designed to attack ground based targets. It's no more an air to air fighter than a British Tornado fighter bomber which also carries air to air missles but purely for self defence.

Actually the mig-27 is intended to shoot down aircraft as well as attack ground targets... it was designed for both roles...
In comparison to mig-23 it lacks the Air-Air radar so it cant use long range missiles but in close combat it is still deadly opponent with ir-missiles, but yes i agree with you it wasnt designed to be an interceptor

I think the important thing here is that neither plane is especially suited to the task, one probably couldn't have even got high enough and the other one is not even in service according to Wikipedia and even if it was it's still not the kind of plane that would have been sent to do the job, especially when there's incredibly formidable air superiority fighters available.

a reply to: fatdeeman

Plus nothing behaving like an aircraft actually shows up on the Russian radar plot in the first place!!

a reply to: zoomer72

Apparently you don't understand what "dedicated ground attack aircraft" means.

Just because a plane has air to air capabilities does not mean it was designed to shoot down other planes. Most of the things that made the mig 23 a good air to air fighter was removed from the mig 27 such as the variable profile air inlets and exhaust nozzles greatly reducing the performance and top speed.

SU-25 is a dedicated ground attack aircraft it was designed for that role only
MIG-27 Is a Fighter bomber ,it was designed for both roles... why is it so hard to understand?

a reply to: fatdeeman

I'm sorry that was a bit snappy of me, I think we agree on the fundamental point that the Ukraine would have much more suited fighters to send up if they wanted to shoot down a 777 and leave the scene quickly.

originally posted by: fatdeeman
a reply to: fatdeeman

I'm sorry that was a bit snappy of me, I think we agree on the fundamental point that the Ukraine would have much more suited fighters to send up if they wanted to shoot down a 777 and leave the scene quickly.

Agreed

originally posted by: zoomer72
SU-25 is a dedicated ground attack aircraft it was designed for that role only
MIG-27 Is a Fighter bomber ,it was designed for both roles... why is it so hard to understand?

It's not hard at all, it wasn't designed to shoot down other planes in an offensive capacity. It is no radar. It can use short range missiles for self defence but then so can a lot of planes

img11.hostingpics.net...

originally posted by: zoomer72

originally posted by: fatdeeman
a reply to: fatdeeman

I'm sorry that was a bit snappy of me, I think we agree on the fundamental point that the Ukraine would have much more suited fighters to send up if they wanted to shoot down a 777 and leave the scene quickly.

Agreed

Arghh I didn't see this one let's just lay it to rest lol

Actually Mig-27H was equipped with French Agave or Russian Komar radar system, which worked in Air to Air mode also
And what ive heard in latest variants they were testing IR-target aquisition system for Air-Air use which is now widely used in modern Russian aircraft.... And as i stated earlier, it can be used in air-air combat i didnt say it was widely used

originally posted by: fatdeeman

originally posted by: zoomer72

originally posted by: fatdeeman
a reply to: fatdeeman

I'm sorry that was a bit snappy of me, I think we agree on the fundamental point that the Ukraine would have much more suited fighters to send up if they wanted to shoot down a 777 and leave the scene quickly.

Agreed

Arghh I didn't see this one let's just lay it to rest lol

Agreed to that too

I still can't understand why the Russians would have suggested such an implausible plane for the job.

originally posted by: fatdeeman
I still can't understand why the Russians would have suggested such an implausible plane for the job.

I think that was a bad mistake on behalf of their propaganda system, i bet they will be correcting that as we speak