Ground Zero Cross: Court presses atheist group to explain why artifact is 'offensive'

a reply to: FinalCountdown

in america? do you mean atheists are resistant to the damage of high fructose corn syrup being in almost everything we eat?

a reply to: mekhanics

is that good advice for everyone?

a reply to: NavyDoc

of course. i have a friend who was an engineer for morton thiokol, the guys who built the solid rocket boosters for the space shuttle. there are literally millions of smart, well-educated christians in every scientific and cultural field. this whole christian=fat and dumb thing, is like the nazi and communist propaganda. make a portion of the culture appear subhuman so they will be easier to kill. afterall, they represent a huge chunk of the banker's creditors.

a reply to: Metallicus

Baffling? It's the fine art of attention whoring and wasting tax dollars with ridiculous law suits.

a reply to: NavyDoc

You said that you believed the Constitution was sacred.

Again, that was in response to a challenge of use of the word "sacred" and it's definition. I used the word sacred in sentences to further illustrate the context of its usage.

Good that you clarified that you don't think that all atheists are lesser people for not becoming "first responders" on that day. I"m sure many Christians sat on the sidelines too, clutching rosaries..

And, just to put things in context, ATS is an entertainment sight, where people can come and discuss issues for fun, education or debate. Again, you need to lighten up. Not everyone is as angry as you.

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: NavyDoc

of course. i have a friend who was an engineer for morton thiokol, the guys who built the solid rocket boosters for the space shuttle. there are literally millions of smart, well-educated christians in every scientific and cultural field. this whole christian=fat and dumb thing, is like the nazi and communist propaganda. make a portion of the culture appear subhuman so they will be easier to kill. afterall, they represent a huge chunk of the banker's creditors.

And that's my point. There are many people who believe differently than I do but that does not make them automatically less intelligent or fat or stupid or any other bigoted prejudiced notion. One of my best friends in Iraq was my 'terp who was a devoted Muslim but I would (and did) trust him with my life. That he was a theist did not make him any less important or beneficial to our efforts to provide medical care to every person we came across. He was noble and self sacrificing and a decent human being even if he believed in mythology.

What annoys me about radical atheists is that they don't just simply not believe, they hate anyone who does in an irrational and fanatical manner and that just demonstrates that they are not secure in what they profess to believe (or not). I don't believe--that you do is no skin off my nose and I don't care what you believe or don't believe. AS long as you treat me decently, it is not a problem to me. Others find anything that does not fit into their paradigm so offensive that it's sad that they really are just as intolerant as those they complain about being intolerant.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: NavyDoc

You said that you believed the Constitution was sacred.

Again, that was in response to a challenge of use of the word "sacred" and it's definition. I used the word sacred in sentences to further illustrate the context of its usage.

Good that you clarified that you don't think that all atheists are lesser people for not becoming "first responders" on that day. I"m sure many Christians sat on the sidelines too, clutching rosaries..

And, just to put things in context, ATS is an entertainment sight, where people can come and discuss issues for fun, education or debate. Again, you need to lighten up. Not everyone is as angry as you.

Again, you pull the silly ad hominum. I'm not angry. I'm not demanding that things other people find comfort in get pulled down. I'm not talking about shooting other people. I'm talking about live and let live.

Again, you dodge the question. Should we pull the crosses out of Gettysburg because they are on national park land. Yes or no?

I'm an atheist and I don't feel threatened by anyone's religion (unless you're a Muslim) and I don't want everyone to think we're all jerks just because of a few loud mouths. a reply to: Metallicus

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask

originally posted by: DumpMaster
a reply to: Metallicus

I find it "slightly" offensive. It would be completely offensive if it had the traditional corpse hanging off it, but, I think it is slightly offensive because it exclude all non-christians who were murdered on that day.

If it is just a cross, it is a bit offensive. If it is a cross and there are other things there to respect non-christians as well, then I don't see it as offensive, as long as it is not the only thing.

Since when does keeping it there EXCLUDE anyone? Thats an illogical thought.......

I swear if people spent as much time being understanding and living the virtues they claim to have, as they do being "offended" the world would be a much better place.......

Honestly if this offends you, you need to grow a pair, America has become a land of sissies who cant step foot outside their houses without being upset, or hurt, or offended or crying because of some issue....

Seriously.......toughen up........

I dont see how the people who are constantly offended by a cross, or some other religious symbol even function in society.....

I ve been in countries that didnt share my particular religious point of view, guess what........I WASNT offended.........why?

because i have better things to do then to be offended by menial things..and I RESPECT them and their religious point of views......even if it doesnt apply to me......

get that? R E S P E C T.......

That's true, I am not offended myself. I just thought I saw how others who were offended might see it, but after seeing your post I think that perhaps if others are offended that they aren't represented, they could put one of theirs up as well.

Now, if they is refused.. then it could be seen as offensive.

Guys... Calm down a second and listen to what is being said.

The issue with the cross is not an issue with Christians!

The issue is with the memorial for 9/11 getting coopted by Christians.

9/11 had nothing to do with Christianity.
9/11 was an attack on the entire country.
People of all faiths, creeds, colors and nationalities were affected by 9/11

Therefore, the museum at ground zero should not focus on a single religion. If the display was a Jewish, Muslim, or Buddhist display I, and most Atheists, would have the same opinion as we do now.

This cross belongs back on the side of the church where it was before it was moved to the place it is now. It was perfect there. Out next to the sidewalk and accessible from the public. It was on a church, where religious symbols belong.

If you don't understand why it's current placement is a problem, imagine instead of a cross, it was a giant Satanic pentagram. Would you be just as content with its placement at the 9/11 museum as you are with this cross? How would it be any different?

a reply to: NavyDoc

that's a life changing experience, i'm sure. i'd debate the whole "it's mythology" thing but it'd get yanked from thread methinks.

so here we are, a big metal t in the middle of ground zero.
wonder what will happen next. as long as its actually good and no one gets hurt, that's fine by me.

a reply to: undo

NavyDoc and undo, to address both of your concerns:

In my post, if you read it carefully, I no where stated that "all" Christians are obese.
You can insert any religion and prophet/holy person that you want in there, my point is:

Religion can create a crutch.
FOR SOME, that crutch allows you to put your faith in something or someone else.
FOR A LOT, thats all that is needed. Eat, pray, pay taxes and die, go to heaven.

I BELIEVE and through my negative minded response, tried to paint the picture as this:

Until we get rid of religion then the masses will continue to feel smug (sometimes, not you of course) and satisfied with themselves, their choices (healthy or not), their lack of ambition, empowerment, innovation, etc... (not you of course).

We must unite as one world under no authority.
We must become more powerful and we must dream big.

Religion must be destroyed and we must unite under science and logic and reason. Only then will we collectively figure out a way to expand, enhance and elevate our conscious and levels of true happiness.

This is why I, though no atheist, agree with the objection of yet another artifact that looks like a cross or a stain that looks like Jesus or whatever being put forth into the collective consciousness of the world. To choose sides, to make a statement without really trying to make a statement. This is the 21st Century. WTF are we doing still talking about magical gods and omnipotent creators that are watching us from above? Fighting over translations and interpretations of Harry Potter?
It's time for us (all of us, the whole wide world) to move on with our future.
"God" or the belief in something like religion, some unprovable answer to the unknown has done nothing for anyone in particular and this is now a joke and the joke is getting old.

a reply to: xDeadcowx

this is how it came about, most likely. since the country is 70% christian (or so they say), the bulk of the first responders and so on, were probably christians. particular parts of new york have a higher pop of roman catholics, as well. so you have this large group of roman catholic fire fighters and christians/non-christians and whatnot, who respond to the scene and continue to respond to the scene and this metal T sticking up from the ruins, suddenly gets attention. the idea passes around the group. it's a scene of a burial. it all just kinda fit.

i don't think it was meant as a dig against anyone.

a reply to: FinalCountdown

wrong place to debate that, but i have a few thoughts of my own on the subject, as you can well imagine. mwahaha.
ahem. what? did you take your eyeball out AGAIN? le mew, le sigh.

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a reply to: NavyDoc

Again.....there's difference between a symbol and shrine. The 911 behemoth cross was blessed by Catholic priests in a religious ceremony. It's a religious artifact.

They, St Peters clergy, had the cross cut, ceremonially blessed and then kept it on display at St Peters. As it is, as it has been presented, it's a religious shrine and place for worship of the Christian God.



Crosses are put on the tombstones of Christians. More than just Christians are buried in the 911 rubble.

a reply to: windword

yeah making it a shrine instead of burial site, is kinda over the top, HOWEVER, a priest would've likely done some kind of service at ground zero anyway. and since it is a landmark where lots of people were literally buried in rubble... its almost like a scene of a gigantic human sacrifice.

originally posted by: xDeadcowx
Guys... Calm down a second and listen to what is being said.

The issue with the cross is not an issue with Christians!

The issue is with the memorial for 9/11 getting coopted by Christians.

9/11 had nothing to do with Christianity.
9/11 was an attack on the entire country.
People of all faiths, creeds, colors and nationalities were affected by 9/11

Therefore, the museum at ground zero should not focus on a single religion. If the display was a Jewish, Muslim, or Buddhist display I, and most Atheists, would have the same opinion as we do now.

This cross belongs back on the side of the church where it was before it was moved to the place it is now. It was perfect there. Out next to the sidewalk and accessible from the public. It was on a church, where religious symbols belong.

If you don't understand why it's current placement is a problem, imagine instead of a cross, it was a giant Satanic pentagram. Would you be just as content with its placement at the 9/11 museum as you are with this cross? How would it be any different?

But that's not the issue. It's not being "co-opted" by Christians. It is there because the first responders saw that chance combination of broken beams was an inspiration of hope and symbol of mourning.

Yes, I know that this particular assortment of beams was pure happenstance in a demolished building composed of horizontal and vertical steel beams that was statistically probable to form after the collapse. There was no miracle, god did not send a sign. It was pure chance. However, those brave men and women--the firefighters, the paramedics, the doctors and nurses, and the average Joe volunteers found inspiration and solace in that chance symbol and it belongs at ground zero, not because Christianity is special, but because of them.

I was a medical responder at the Pentagon that day and, although my experience was orders of magnitude less than NY, I understand the stress and despair and disgust and fear that they felt and, as a thinking person, I cannot deny their comfort they found in that symbol. To do so would be cruel and unfeeling.

It was particularly intense for me because my wife and unborn child were supposed to be there that morning. I did my duty and tried to save lives but the fear I'd find her body was with me for hours as I worked. It was not until hours later that I learned that she was late to work and missed it and saw the plane and was stuck on the highway. Given such an emotional roller coaster that I experienced, I cannot begrudge others from taking solace in this symbol.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: NavyDoc

Again.....there's difference between a symbol and shrine. The 911 behemoth cross was blessed by Catholic priests in a religious ceremony. It's a religious artifact.

They, St Peters clergy, had the cross cut, ceremonially blessed and then kept it on display at St Peters. As it is, as it has been presented, it's a religious shrine and place for worship of the Christian God.

Crosses are put on the tombstones of Christians. More than just Christians are buried in the 911 rubble.

And yet you would deny those who were Christians and the priest who died on the scene their memorial. How tolerant of you.