Let's talk about CHAOS

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

if the amount of energy in the universe its not finite how do you expect to reach equilibrium?

You defined it reaching equilibrium here

A universe in that state of uniformity is far more ordered than our universe right now.

a reply to: Indigent

Good point, I don't expect it to reach any sort of thermal equilibrium, well not on an infinite scale at least. It was misleading of me to say the universe is headed that way because that's not what I really think will happen, because I don't believe time has a start or end. But if the universe is finite and had a start then it will reach a point of thermal equilibrium, and the fact we can predict that's how it will turn out means it cannot really be a highly random or chaotic state. The big bang was supposed to be a perfectly uniform energy state, so it's kind of ironic that the end of a finite universe would be a highly uniform energy state, which is why some scientists see a connection between the end and the start of the finite universe, and develop cyclic models based on that principle. In any case, we've drifted off the main topic of chaos quite a bit and I need to get some sleep shortly, so I'll continue this discussion at a later time if you choose to respond.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Yeah sorry OP for derailing your thread

If you like to keep it just make a new thread and send me a pm
______________________

Back to op, chaos always wins

Looking at the universe, or the totality of reality from a hypothetical perspective outside of it, it would be seen that the totality was always 'order', as in the sense of "Look at all the stuff right there, it is 'in its order', it is moving, but this is order, even if it is chaos, it is right there, moving, and transforming, and thats its order".

...or something like that... Is order 'lesser forms of chaos', is chaos 'lesser forms of order'? Seems like this question of chaos and order is like 2 ends of an inescapable spectrum.

All stuff by nature of existing, without doing anything else, obeys laws. Just because something exists, as all things that exist, exist, by proxy of their existence, exist in exact and certain ways, and interact in exact and certain ways to that which exists surrounding it. 'Something has to happen...and it does'. Regularity, law, stability, these are all ideas of order, pattern. Chaos is that which is irregular, unstable, an indiscernible pattern.

Perhaps the only way to create, or have a 'legit' reality, is a meshing of chaos and order. What would complete and perfect nonstop order mean and be? What is an example of a hypothetical system that could be made that was absolute and perfect order, and what would it do, what would be its purpose or point? And the same question about chaos?

Or perhaps, because there only exists a finite amount of stuff, any system that would be made to be pure chaos, would by the nature of being finite, have the nature of being limited, and the fact it would be limited would impose 'potentials and probabilities' and so even a system of pure chaos at all times forever, would be a system of order, its order would be, 'however the pure chaos at all times forever' is operating.

chaos is a human invention for describing things that are contrary to our societies goals.

What is chaos for one culture is order in another.

Chaos for one orginization is order for another.

When wild fires occure, We may describe it as chaotic. But Everything is truely organized, Because it takes a spark to start that fire, and that spark has to hit an area that can spread. There are many seeds that require charred ground to sprout, So wildwires can be *Natural* and completely in order for nature. Where for us it's chaotic because it destroys human development therefore contrary to our societies goals.

Floods, Hurricanes, Tisunamis Tornados anything we can describe as chaotic was complete order, Its called energy disperment Like how rain falls in droplets.... it does not all drop at once... The build of excess mass generates energy and must be dispersed, Such as build up of energy from hot and cold winds. Static electricity turning into thunder storms, And the build up of hurricanes/typhoons.

Asteroids/comets can hit, but they have predicted routes. It's not random. What is truely random? Given the majority of the discussion here is towards human thought and action rather than natural cause and effect of reality.

Nothing truely is random. The only random thing anyone you me can provide is if we veer off our current routines.
Human definition calls this Chaotic, But it's just free will.
And since humans have free will, We tend to associate nature and the elements with personalities associated with free will. Animals make choices too... but to a degree, They must be educated first otherwise their instincts take over.

But when it comes to complex social thoughts. We label things with a moral alignment. Since humans can create technology to alter the enviroment around them it is a more complex type of social thought process among the masses.
We view ourselves as creators, And so when we deem Moral value on something it gives it percieved meaning and value. We fight over these values and percieved meanings, We label things evil or good, horrorfying, peaceful, chaotic.

What ever happens between us and reality we label them, it does not mean we fully understand what exactly we are labeling. But free will can create human percieved chaos. If a species goes insain and kills itself, If another species could talk to a portion of the raging population and ask * why have you destroyed your infustructure, and waged war on yourself?*

*Well im a blahtheist and that guy is a derpeist, we were commanded by blaglor our god, No Blahlord is an idol! Derpinus is the true one God , Lets build a temple they took ours... Our god says you can't build a temple! if you do we will attack! *

And you begin to listen to exactly why all this fighting on this hypothetical planet would exist and sure its confusing. But it all had cause and effect because both sides hypothetically want the other to submit.
Nothing really chaotic about that at all really, and if anything is Orginized because normal people are now fighting against each other for said cause, Which was preorganized. It's not random. And if humans want to attribute purely humanly constructed conflicts as cause and effect of Chaos. Well go ahead but know that everything happens for a reason. And there is always a trigger, You may not see the sniper but the sniper sees you. And all it takes is that trigger to turn your percieved world upside down.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Oh, CO. you beat me to it! I was going to start quoting the principia! Well....

So yeah, what ChaoticOrder said.

Hail Eris!

a reply to: AnuTyr

It is interesting you mention free will and such. I think the only thing about reality that is not determined completely, is the conscious mind.

You mention asteroids and such, what if humans shoot nukes at an incoming asteroid and it changes its trajectory, im just expressing the ability in small doses for concious free willed minds to alter determinism.

Believers in a God, creator of the universe, believe that the ultimate 'what we, or I am saying, is the determined material universe', was determined by a consciousness. Its amazing that consciousness exists at all; that a completely unconscious, completely determined, material clustercluck, through its uncontrollable, unknowable, unchooseable, determination; created conscious, free willed, material clusterclucks.

Human consciousness, and all the consciousnesses, eliminate determinisms from themselves and surroundings they choose to not like, and willfully create their own determinisms in their surroundings and selves, that they prefer...I suppose one must then ask, is this process determined? There are so many people and so many different ways, is it even possible right now for them to all be like ants? Or is it more probable, or determined even, for all humans to express themselves, find hobbies and crafts, in a variety of numerous ways? Well of course partly that is determined and birthed from humans great complex and numerous needs, in different fields of specialty, humans creating greater modes of stability for themselves, creating greater nooks of freedom in time and space and life, for relaxing, and creating and enjoying entertainment, or learning a skill, or inventing a new potential. What this has to do with chaos and order I dont know, just read your post and felt like responding.

originally posted by: AnuTyr
chaos is a human invention for describing things that are contrary to our societies goals.

So where does the spiritual/metaphysical enter into that? Is chaos evil?

a reply to: FlyersFan

Chaos nor order can be labeled evil or pure. It's like referring to an apple as evil or pure. The application of chaos ensures order where order already existed. It's a fluctuation.

originally posted by: Fylgje
a reply to: FlyersFan

Chaos nor order can be labeled evil or pure. It's like referring to an apple as evil or pure. The application of chaos ensures order where order already existed. It's a fluctuation.

So, would you say it is ordered fluctuation but we humans view it as chaos? Or is it maleable chaos from which we can create order (metaphysical)?

a reply to: FlyersFan

Chaos is the border of order in which creation is taking place. If you see chaos you are too close to what you are viewing. It's like pixels on the TV, up close you see flashing dots and shifting light all seemingly random but when you back up you witness source creating a new thing, always in constant motion and HI DEFINITION. Sometimes we don't see the plot.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Imafungi has the right idea.

Its because a species might not benefit under certain circumstances.
Chaos also has different routes besides what's in the dictionary.

If a society breaks down for new social structure. That's percieved as chaos. Tho the trees and animals/insects flora fauna arn't all moshing with the humans dropping white phospherus and shooting lead. Neither are the stars colliding when humans decide that current *Order* is receiving a shift.

It's all humanly percieved consiousness.

All life as far as i know is developed with defence mechanisms and since humans are a social species likewise rapidly *advancing* in technologies. Nichola Tesla was one of the great minds that sped up the reatainment of what was already there.

Nothing can truely be invented it can oan only be rediscovered.

Since the universe is a multitude of galaxies housing astronomical *pun intended* stars each.
Nothing just starts and stops, Energy is displaced in other atoms change and bond constantly as well as electrons protons ( Sub-atomic particles floating around an atom). Electrons are still a form of electricity and as long as it has its proper charge it will jump or *vanish*
I could rant on about this and how it relates to metaphysics. But for me in order to make sense of it all i have to attribute E=mc2 into the equation And to make sense of that further i then have to relate to Dark matter and energy and how atoms are bonded shards that when shattered can condensed under immense pressures creates Anti-atoms
that are opposite to atoms, instead of being hollow they are tightly compacted During the process it becomes a neutral charge and it-itself does not contain a charge to react with what we call *physical mass* At least only to a degree. The stuff isn't completely gone, And it will slow you down. My belief is that the universe is only showing a fraction of what is compressed; as in all the mass and energy we are currently using and experiencing is only a fraction of what is condensed.

That way the universe itself could possibly span infinitely, With just galaxies and only galaxies far as the eye can see... until you reach as far as that and continue to go farther.. and farther and farther... Well forever really.

Since all the hypothetical *black matter* would be tiny balls or shards of super condensed peices of multipul atoms, electrons, other particles, if forced together. The wrong shards could be bonded with other bits of protons, neutrons, anything really. And since mass is governed by * Order* This complete opposite particle becomes *chaos*
We attribute it to chaos because is earth were to go spinning into a black hole it would be bad news for us.

Ultamitely there is nothing really Evil about said hypothosis at all. Things die, you me plants animals. And likewise Physical existance (rocks, light, anything you can see lol) since all mass is eventually destroyed as it burns out, breaks down. Justs sucked into the realm of Rar/Zip files in space until another rar file is opened to replace the burned out old ones.
If that makes sense... But these zip rars are all around us.. Each having its own precise code till BOOM. Where ever it decides to boom that is who knows.

I would bet towards the closest point of gravity tho. I could see older particles losing shards and all that crap is just floating around in space, striking planets and astronaughts helmets and such.

I ranted there a bit. But anyways, Bad news is good news because if the good news never came there would never be bad news... lol.

As a society gaining availabilty to some nasty weapons of destruction. We developed moral and ethical codes of conduct in order to prevent percieved chaos. To me such an event isn't chaotic at all, but to have something and to make a choice. Those are conciquences. And conciquences remain until the slate is cleaned again by the reaper, Some call it fading to black. I call it just a silent slumber, Until reawakening

Anyways My thesis is that the universe existed and always was. Our time here in the milkyway is short and soon another galaxy will fill its place. Who here would perceive such an event as that as soon ? Only in the eye of the beholder.

Because in this percieved thesis, An infinite ammount of realities have spawned over and over, Infinitly. New galaxies with new worlds, New minds new species new hopes and dreams new fears and new stories.

The universe is a magical story book. Who where wants to hear the story of Earth? We are painting one right now. And we will carry it as a lagacy across the cosmos of all realities/galaxies and all their residents. Perhapse one day the humans will create some residents of their own, And we can watch how they wage war on each other from above and not intervene... Until a percived time is right. Some of us may even become trans-dimensional (alterstates between Perception by changing into energy/mass/ or waves) in order to prob and investigate harsh and otherwise deadly climates.

What if life really was a never ending encyclopedia of interchangable stories generated by completely engineered consiousness derived by forces working against each other. Like positive and negative. It's these forces that push the foundations of the physical reality and universe we know today. It's really a trippy concept, That when you get down to the brute science/philosphy within a system that must be paradox free. it needs all these forces working against each other but at the same time dependent on other forces in order to guide them into more complex arrangements of energy and mass.

Physics would only differ from galaxy to galaxy based on different gases on planets, exposure to magnetic/electrowaves/x rays other types of rays and so on. Our rates of weight measurement would be messed up by the gravity of other planets, stars and what the main components of the stars themselves. Galaxies shine different colors because of the different compounds that are most present. So likewise physics only alters as much as those characteristics would allow.

What's the point to life? Win the race! The race is not to die as a species. And to outlive out galaxy and move on or create another... What better existance could you want? Don't like this world? Go create another! you're species will need to band together to build the technology to acomplish something like that tho.
And that is where free will comes in.

originally posted by: Indigent
Yeah sorry OP for derailing your thread

You are fine. I said that there weren't really parameters for the topic. Just let it flow ... see where it goes. There is a lot to the general topic of CHAOS that can be discussed. I like the metaphysical ... others like the pure science ..... It's all good.

originally posted by: Fylgje
a reply to: FlyersFan
Chaos nor order can be labeled evil or pure. It's like referring to an apple as evil or pure. The application of chaos ensures order where order already existed. It's a fluctuation.

So you say the Chaos is part of the order?
I've viewed order as 'good' and chaos as 'evil' because it defies order.

Keep talking to me .. it's interesting.

a reply to: Involutionist
THAT is interesting. I can follow that thought process. I'll give it some thought and see what I think of it. It's an interesting angle to think about.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Chaos and Order works together to create a larger order.

Chaos = 0
Order = 1

011100010 010011001 010100001 = ♡

The Chaos itself (0) is being used with Order (1) to create an even larger Order.

Chaos is not necessarily negative.
Order is not necessarily positive.

Chaos can be Freedom or Destruction (Absolute Corruption)
Order can be Stability or Enslavement (Absolute Control)

When "Stability" exists within, then Freedom can exist on the outside.
If "Chaos" exists within, then due to fear, people will seek Control on the outside.

When people have SELF-Control (inner control), then authority (outer control) is not necessary.

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: Fylgje
a reply to: FlyersFan

Chaos nor order can be labeled evil or pure. It's like referring to an apple as evil or pure. The application of chaos ensures order where order already existed. It's a fluctuation.

So, would you say it is ordered fluctuation but we humans view it as chaos? Or is it maleable chaos from which we can create order (metaphysical)?

Right now I think it's ordered fluctuation and our perception of it is wrong. In a few days I will think something different! lol I love seeing you guys talk about this as I've always had a fascination with philosophy and science.

a reply to: FlyersFan

I think that it's possible that order influences chaos and vice versa. What we perceive as negative and positive polarities, or forces,(in a sense) is actually an attraction between the two; A love affair. It's always give and take(fluctuation), but at the same time, both are under each's influence and that's why I think they are the same. We perceive it as two different things but it's just reality of a single creation fighting with itself.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Challenging.

There are basically what we can call "behavioural protocols" that are autonomous, example, when we touch a hot surface, we retract our limbs automatically, and of course, we are programmed with "pain" - lets say I "deleted" these two characteristics, and put them in the recycle bin, and then emptied the recycle bin for good measure.

"Oh wow look my hand is turning red, what are these strange bumps on my skin"

.... "No I can't use my hand anymore!"

Alternativley - "Well, the stove is on, better pull my hand back or ill damage my skin...."

The point is here, friend, is that there is the environment, that could be chaotic, and then there is what you are, that is also programmed, without the environment, and the programming, all is potential, and for anything to happen, there must be intent, and, intent relies upon being able to cognitise action and reaction, and in turn, action and reaction are parameters of the universe, and the order of all things.

There is actually a good series of book that talks about this very subject. It is called the Chronicles of Amber. Basically, there is a land of Chaos, with beings that can transform and #. A being called Dworkin traveled via manipulating dimensions, and made the Pattern of Amber and the Jewel of Amber, and reflections of Amber came about. One of those reflections was Earth...

Suffice it to say, Chaos is Order unbounded, and while beings of Chaos have created Order, chaos still remains.